Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Mario levels are based around blocks on a single plane. Sonic levels are more intricate, relying on layers, a variety of gimmicks/objects for variety

They can get away with giving players 2 variable layers and a default "always collide with this" layer, and while that's a bit of a conceptual jump beyond what Mario does, I don't think it's too much for most people who would be interested in this sort of thing. And Mario has plenty of gimmicks and objects so I don't know why that's a problem?

5 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

and sloped terrain doesn't fit very well into a grid.

That's...literally how the Genesis games were made, though? Small blocks assembled into larger blocks assembled into levels.

[Nepenthe]

I don't think anyone's asking for an editor to be nothing but 16x16 bit blocks. But rather that the dearth of technology between what we're doing now and the classic games of old should make such a game feasible to make. I don't see why slopes couldn't visually confirm to a grid editor in as much as its a yardstick you'd use to be able to see a slope's height and placement in a level as a whole and not what a grid would physically conform to. Allow a person to place a default "slope" down somewhere and- with a grid overlay- know that it's lined up with other bits of level, allow them to adjust the angles and lengths of the slopes and trough, add indicators to let them know whether or not Sonic could actually use the slope to bypass obstacles or if he'd be stuck, etc..

[Blue Blood]

18 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They can get away with giving players 2 variable layers and a default "always collide with this" layer, and while that's a bit of a conceptual jump beyond what Mario does, I don't think it's too much for most people who would be interested in this sort of thing. And Mario has plenty of gimmicks and objects so I don't know why that's a problem?

That's...literally how the Genesis games were made, though? Small blocks assembled into larger blocks assembled into levels.

2 variable layers and a single constant layer is typically how 2D Sonic games work. They're needed for loops to work at a minimum, and I don't agree that it's a conceptual jump that people could get around very easily. You and I sure, but not the more casual players who are easily able to jump into something like Mario Maker or Minecraft (which doesn't require such intricacies for basic building) and not kids either. You have to tell the game to swap layers at certain points and then swap back so that the obstacle can be completed. If the layers don't line up properly, you end up with solid walls in the middle on the level that make it impossible to complete. It's so easy to misplace these things that I see it happening all the time in ROM hacks. We've even seen it happen in Mania. 

Sonic levels also have far more gimmicks and unique obstacles than Mario ones. Mario Maker includes all the standard objects, and they let you create quite a variety of levels. It's not the same with Sonic games where levels all rely on different themes and gimmicks. Take those put and you end up with very simplistic levels. Not to undersell Mario, but Sonic games are more "designed". They're not just rearrangments of blocks and simple platforms. 

The Mega Drive games do work with tiles and chunks, but the moment you add slopes, hills and gimmicks/objects into the mix it becomes much harder to fit it all on a grid. It's doable, but not in a simple "level editor" fashion. The outcome wouldn't be very good at all. 

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

2 variable layers and a single constant layer is typically how 2D Sonic games work. They're needed for loops to work at a minimum, and I don't agree that it's a conceptual jump that people could get around very easily. You and I sure, but not the more casual players who are easily able to jump into something like Mario Maker or Minecraft (which doesn't require such intricacies for basic building) and not kids either. You have to tell the game to swap layers at certain points and then swap back so that the obstacle can be completed. If the layers don't line up properly, you end up with solid walls in the middle on the level that make it impossible to complete. It's so easy to misplace these things that I see it happening all the time in ROM hacks. We've even seen it happen in Mania. 

I still don't think it's so far out of reach of most players. They're an advanced element that could probably use some explicit tutorial to teach them about it and maybe shouldn't be available right away, and maybe some kids still wouldn't get it, but I think it's still a reasonable element to include. And if sometimes people mess up and make something that doesn't work right? That's just how player-made content works.

And if layers are really that tough for people to wrap their heads around, don't use them. Or rather, don't give people access to them, build them into preset objects like loops such that the person designing the level doesn't need to worry about them. You lose some flexibility like that, but there are still countless ways to design fun levels without having layers to fool around with.

6 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Sonic levels also have far more gimmicks and unique obstacles than Mario ones. Mario Maker includes all the standard objects, and they let you create quite a variety of levels. It's not the same with Sonic games where levels all rely on different themes and gimmicks. Take those put and you end up with very simplistic levels. Not to undersell Mario, but Sonic games are more "designed". They're not just rearrangments of blocks and simple platforms. 

I think you're overestimating Sonic games. What kinds of objects are you thinking of that a level creator couldn't reasonably include?

6 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The Mega Drive games do work with tiles and chunks, but the moment you add slopes, hills and gimmicks/objects into the mix it becomes much harder to fit it all on a grid. It's doable, but not in a simple "level editor" fashion. The outcome wouldn't be very good at all. 

I still don't see what the problem is. You just make slopes and curves that are some multiple of your smallest grid unit. Or you make them scalable by whole units. And objects just...are aligned to the grid.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

Wasn't there already some mobile Sonic stage editor thing? Did that have slopes and whatever?

[Blue Blood]

2 minutes ago, Radiant Hero Ike said:

Wasn't there already some mobile Sonic stage editor thing? Did that have slopes and whatever?

This what you're thinking of? It was web-based. 

[Nepenthe]

I'm not sure how it would be that much of a hurdle for most people to understand how a background and a foreground works, or to have it in such a way that the game communicates even to the most braindead person when there's a conflict in assets.

You want to make a set-piece like in Chemical Plant or Hydrocity wherein Sonic is sometimes thrown leftwards behind a series of right-facing inclines he just traveled down? Prevent the player from placing it down and throw up a red warning to simply say the left-facing assets aren't on the right layer.

[Dr. Detective]

Creating Sonic levels sounds rather intimidating to me. As much as I may complain about the games sometimes, I don't envy their position.

I envy Pontac and Graff's position though. Like a lot.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

It doesn't matter whether the levels would be easy to make. We don't need a level creator. We just need good levels.

[Blue Blood]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not sure how it would be that much of a hurdle for most people to understand how a background and a foreground works, or to have it in such a way that the game communicates even to the most braindead person when there's a conflict in assets.

You want to make a set-piece like in Chemical Plant or Hydrocity wherein Sonic is sometimes thrown leftwards behind a series of right-facing inclines he just traveled down? Prevent the player from placing it down and throw up a red warning to simply say the left-facing assets aren't on the right layer.

You then have the issue of bypassing triggers by going through different routes, hitting triggers when you're not expected to and having to put in safeguards for back tracking. It can be done, but not really in a way that's particularly user-friendly. Sonic levels don't lend themselves to quick and easy designs. I just don't think you'd get much out of a Sonic level editor trying to balance complexities and potential depth with simple accessibility. As for objects that I mentioned earlier - think of all the gimmicks found in any Sonic game, including the enemies. There's so many of them, and level themes (tilesets) as well. Many of them don't lend themselves to a level editor very well. 

Sonic levels are quite difficult to make, especially to make them any fun and functional. I stand by an editor being too cumbersome.

[Tracker_TD]

I mean, LittleBigPlanet has similar systems for layers and triggers, and that was pretty popular before LBP3 happened and did whatever that did. I think a 2D Sonic editor would be neat. 

[JezMM]

This is kind of an interesting discussion so rather than ask the kinda-obvious-answer question "Should someone make a thread for this coz it's kind of off-topic considering no such feature is in or even rumoured/speculated to be in Forces" I just... went ahead and made a thread for it.

[Sonikko]

I'd take another 2D official title by Taxman and company than a level editor any day.

The worst case scenario would be getting a level editor and SEGA deciding 2D Sonic is done for good since there would be no point in releasing more Sonic Mania after the level editor.

[blueblur98]

1 hour ago, Tracker_TD said:

I mean, LittleBigPlanet has similar systems for layers and triggers, and that was pretty popular before LBP3 happened and did whatever that did. I think a 2D Sonic editor would be neat. 

LBP3 wasn't that bad tho... yeah there were a metric ton of glitches at launch, the story mode wasn't as good as LBP1 or LBP2's, and the load times are just unbearable, but the core LBP experience is still in there, and the level creator was filled with even more new stuff than LBP2 brought to the table. not quite as good as LBP2, but still great. i hope they make LBP4 and expand upon LBP3's concepts.

[Detective Kaito]

Aaron is talking about the character creation in Forces. He confirmed that the character will have different voices we can choose from, but they're only grunts and stuff. He also said that you can make a CaC that looks almost like Sonic.

[JezMM]

I guess that confirms that Sonic is gonna be chatting with two mutes for the whole game if it's just grunts then.  Sonic's regular friends are gonna get pretty salty about this.  "C'mon man they can't even TALK".

EDIT: Quoting due to page bump.

2 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Aaron is talking about the character creation in Forces. He confirmed that the character will have different voices we can choose from, but they're only grunts and stuff. He also said that you can make a CaC that look almost like Sonic.

 

[Detective Kaito]

Aaron also said that your CaC will appear in cutscenes. You can "customize how the character controls" by using different Wispons outside of the level and then go back into the level to try it out and reach new areas.

Both Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces will be playable at E3.

[Graystripe2000]

1 minute ago, Detective Kaito said:

Aaron also said that your CaC will appear in cutscenes. You can "customize how the character controls" by using different Wispons outside of the level and then go back into the level to try it out and reach new areas.

This might've confirmed a hub world.

[Detective Kaito]

Just now, Operationgamer17 said:

This might've confirmed a hub world.

It could be just via a menu as well. The "World Map" thing in the trailer might mean that there will level selection like SA2 or Lost World.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

8 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Both Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces will be playable at E3.

Oh man. I'm extremely excited now.

TBH I might wait in line multiple times to try out all 3 styles (if all 3 are available).

[Chris Knopps]

I wonder why being cool and edgy works for Donkey Kong and Rayman and not Sonic nowadays...

Something else that has popped into my head while thinking about how scared/safe this Forces game is acting.

[Diogenes]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

I wonder why being cool and edgy works for Donkey Kong

What? When has DK been "cool and edgy"?

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Diogenes said:

What? When has DK been "cool and edgy"?

In both the original and new Country series as well as DK 64.

Going by the behavior of the characters, the general plots, the tone/atmospheres of the titles.

It can get pretty "edgy" in various locations throughout the games.

Those two series have been consistently the same over the years and have maintained their own senses of "cool" and "edge" and sell like hotcakes.

...I dunno, just a consistent quality thing I guess. If the games are repeatedly good time and again I guess the tone isn't what matters as much.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What? When has DK been "cool and edgy"?

The 90's were pretty fucking wild.

 

EDIT: Look, he even used guns before Shadow did. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

Your own character is the hero!*

Play and interact with Sonic!*

 

 

*1: He's the supporting character. Not the main hero.

*2: Interaction is limited to grunting.

 

Can they just announce Tails is the villain now and get it over with?