Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Shaddy the guy said:

Okay, then I'm just gonna say that you're then outlier, then, because I've never heard anyone say that in my life, and I'm pretty sure most other people here still know edgy as "fake dark", however often they may apply them to unfitting nouns. If such is the case, then you should be the one changing your personal definition, not telling everyone else to.

 

You should visit other game websites, the Rabbits mario leak thread on neogaf was particularly embracing for that exact reason. " this crossoever for children is edgy" sonic looking at flames and being mildly upset was " edgy " .Not really an otlier, i see it quite often, I find it annoying. Oh, joker in injustice 2 looks not exactly like joker looked a billion times before, its edgy. Kirby has a robot, its edgy.

Something someone is unfamiliar with, and do not like. 

6 minutes ago, JezMM said:

 

In Steven Universe and Korra's case, what they really mean is they find them progressive (which, if they're using "edgy" as a negative term, they likely think the progressiveness is cheap and just being done for the sake of views.  Which is an opinion I personally find completely stupid but an opinion nonetheless).  Obviously whether you then correct them on their word usage is your perogative.

I'm with you on that parenthesis, but i'm just pointing out, edgy is in the eye of the beholder.   

[Tracker_TD]

Just now, Dr. Detective Mike said:

If Mufasa died in a Sonic game would that be considered edgy by the masses?

I wonder.

 

 

I didn't consider Shadow's death "edgy."

It was just meaningless because fan demand brought him back anyway, that's all.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

If Mufasa died in a Sonic game would that be considered edgy by the masses?

I wonder.

Yes. 

Also , if you can name your character. Who wants to make a bet on how many people on the first day you will see named uchiha?

1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

I didn't consider Shadow's death "edgy."

It was just meaningless because fan demand brought him back anyway, that's all.

Welcome to comic books. 

" this character was dead or a villain, you like them. They are alive and a cool dude" 

 

[Dr. Detective]

Just now, Tracker_TD said:

I didn't consider Shadow's death "edgy."

It was just meaningless because fan demand brought him back anyway, that's all.

I wasn't drawing any direct parallel to another death in the series. I wasn't even thinking about Shadow's death honestly. I was providing an example of something like a heavy, dramatic moment from a cartoon movie with talking animals and trying to pose a question that if something similar were to happen in our Sonic games, would the reaction be as accepting as it was or is in something like your typical Disney movie?

Its just interesting to think about.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Just now, Shadowlax said:

You should visit other game websites, the Rabbits mario leak thread on neogaf was particularly embracing for that exact reason. " this crossoever for children is edgy" sonic looking at flames and being mildly upset was " edgy " .Not really an otlier, i see it quite often, I find it annoying. Oh, joker in injustice 2 looks not exactly like joker looked a billion times before, its edgy. Kirby has a robot, its edgy.

Something someone is unfamiliar with, and do not like.

Except the mario/rabbids thing was totally dated and trying super-hard to be cool. It used the word "badass", gave Mario a gun and had the "OMG so cool" rabbids shit in it. Those are pretty much the frontrunners for kiddie shit that thinks it's cooler than it is.

Sonic not having a smile on his face and looking at a burning city shows shades of Sonic 06, a game that totally was edgy, thus the conjecture, while still stupid, is given some form of reasonability to it. The case with injustice is probably more toward the general edginess of modern superhero stuff in general. Everyone needs to be emotionally tortured in DC/Marvel stuff these days because of how successful Batman became when he did it. It's a problem, and it's a trend. Thus, again, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's the incorrect usage. You're falling prey to your own argument here.

[Indigo Rush]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

If Mufasa died in a Sonic game would that be considered edgy by the masses?

I wonder.

I'd find it weird that there's a talking lion walking on all fours in a world where every other animal that talks is bipedal, in addition to giant animals like elephants and gorillas being the size of common garden-variety rabbits that don't talk.

[Blue Blood]

Is this what we're talking about?

 

[Indigo Rush]

Nah, that's just cool.

[Dr. Detective]

3 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'd find it weird that there's a talking lion walking on all fours in a world where every other animal that talks is bipedal, in addition to giant animals like elephants and gorillas being the size of common garden-variety rabbits that don't talk.

Me too!

Although, I wasn't being literal so I guess this doesn't really answer anything but still.

Yeah, that'd be strange.

[Wraith]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

If Mufasa died in a Sonic game would that be considered edgy by the masses?

I wonder.

 

 

In a Sonic game it would be written about 1/6th as well so probably.

[Diogenes]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

If Mufasa died in a Sonic game would that be considered edgy by the masses?

I wonder.

Well, transplanting the scene as is probably wouldn't work because Sonic games don't have the same tone or writing style as the Lion King. And adapting the scene to the Sonic series' tone and writing style probably wouldn't work because Sonic games' writing and tone are...usually bad.

[Indigo Rush]

I remember when I was a youngster and saw that cut-scene of Shadow's 'death' back in 2001... I don't think I got it? Metal Sonic's death at the end of the OVA had more of an impact on me, and that sequence made even less sense. It didn't have an impact on me to begin with, so when Shadow showed up in Heroes, I really didn't have any questions as to why. Shadow's there because he's a character; I had to play through Team Dark's story to realize that Shadow was supposed to have 'died.'

I mean, maybe I was a stupid kid, but Shadow's sacrifice was really poorly presented. It wasn't edgy, just... awkward. Like... Maria tells him "give them a chance to be happy" and he does the Chaos Control kamehameha and someone does a scaling tween to make him look smaller and add a sparkle like Team Rocket was blasting off again. "Maria, this is what you wanted, right?"

Dude I don't know. After that unsettling cutscene with the heroes listening to Gerald's diary I felt really underwhelmed. "Sayonara Shadow the Hedgehog... see you on the Gamecube"

[Dr. Detective]

Just now, Josh said:

In a Sonic game it would be written about 1/6th as well so probably.

Of course. 

Some, not all, but some don't seem to take to mind that the way its written often counts for a lot more then the themes it presents in general. So when we hear something dark is gonna happen the pitch forks are lit before we even see the context.

But just speaking in a vaccum, if things were as ...ideal as I wanted them to be I feel like a lot of the backlash to what would be considered "edgy" might change.

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Well, transplanting the scene as is probably wouldn't work because Sonic games don't have the same tone or writing style as the Lion King. And adapting the scene to the Sonic series' tone and writing style probably wouldn't work because Sonic games' writing and tone are...usually bad.

Certainly. Do you have faith that people would be a le to recognize the difference though? Or would it be condemned just for the subject matter it was trying to tackle? I could see it being rather mixed, especially after everything we've been through up to this point. 

[Wraith]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Of course. 

Some, not all, but some don't seem to take to mind that the way its written often counts for a lot more then the themes it presents in general. So when we hear something dark is gonna happen the pitch forks are lit before we even see the context.

But just speaking in a vaccum, if things were as ...ideal as I wanted them to be I feel like a lot of the backlash to what would be considered "edgy" might change.

 

Well, yeah. The stigma came from the execution. Not the other way around. I'm not saying it's fair for people to feel that way about darker subject matter(It's not). Sonic's just made his bed and now he has to lie in it, so to speak. 

How they chose to move forward was also another critical thing. They could have either proved people wrong or let the stigma fester/embrace it outright. They chose the latter.

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Certainly. Do you have faith that people would be a le to recognize the difference though? Or would it be condemned just for the subject matter it was trying to tackle? I could see it being rather mixed, especially after everything we've been through up to this point. 

Well, I think there's a fair question of whether or not it is subject matter that the series should tackle. Not "death" as a whole, but the murder of a young character's father. Hard for me to see how it'd fit into a Sonic game.

[Chris Knopps]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Well, I think there's a fair question of whether or not it is subject matter that the series should tackle. Not "death" as a whole, but the murder of a young character's father. Hard for me to see how it'd fit into a Sonic game.

Archie tackled this pretty constantly...

Game canon wise...

Where ARE his parents...?

Maybe it was a South Park case, Eggman decided to sit down for lunch one day and didn't realize he was sitting on them and...

Gone.

Sonic will pull em' outta there someday.

 

[RLS Legacy]

Incidentally, is that game really the sort of thing Nintendo thinks is going to sell the bloody Switch?

A Rabbids RPG.

With guns.

And Mario characters slapped on top.

Jesus Christ, is this what it's come to?

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Well, yeah. The stigma came from the execution. Not the other way around. I'm not saying it's fair for people to feel that way about darker subject matter(It's not). Sonic's just made his bed and now he has to lie in it, so to speak. 

How they chose to move forward was also another critical thing. They could have either proved people wrong or let the stigma fester/embrace it outright. They chose the latter.

I'm aware of how dirty and stained Sonic's bed is. It's rather disgusting to look at. Truly, he needs to wash those sheets before Tails sees them. However, I'm more wondering about how the people's perception of the subject matter itself is because of what's Sonic's handling of it has been. Often I worry that if someone did come along who was able to write these kinds of stories well, it wouldn't go over well regardless because it's immediately "edgy" to do this sort of stuff.

And most of that fear, to be honest, does come from my personal reaction to Adventure 2, where I feel what it did was fine and on the level of something I'd see in a Saturday Morning Action-Adventure cartoon (which it later got adapted into actually) but it's still seen on the level of what Shadow and 06 did by some, which I feel are just wholly different in their presentation entirely. I suppose I just worry that the dial is getting turned back too far. 

 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Well, I think there's a fair question of whether or not it is subject matter that the series should tackle. Not "death" as a whole, but the murder of a young character's father. Hard for me to see how it'd fit into a Sonic game.

Well, I don't mean to say that they should just shove whatever story in there for the hell of it. After all, it wouldn't fit if that were the case. And if it doesn't fit, it's chances of coming off as well written are already going to be damaged. 

Most of this is just me wondering if the stories could ever conceivably manage it at all. Ignoring what's realistically likely to happen of course.

Realistically, I wouldn't even bother posing the question because I know most likely it won't ever reach the level we're all comfortable with but it was some nice food for thought for me.

Then again, if I know it's never going to happen, worrying about it is kind of pointless too. 

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, RLS Legacy said:

Incidentally, is that game really the sort of thing Nintendo thinks is going to sell the bloody Switch?

A Rabbids RPG.

With guns.

And Mario characters slapped on top.

Jesus Christ, is this what it's come to?

Dude...

They could make a game about crap, LITERALLY, and it will push units. Shake the console to take a poo.

Ten thousand units sold.

The thing's hotter than the Wii was.

And lets face it, Forces and MarioxRabbids aren't all that different in terms of the "what" and "why?" factors.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'm aware of how dirty and stained Sonic's bed is. It's rather disgusting to look at. Truly, he needs to wash those sheets before Tails sees them. However, I'm more wondering about how the people's perception of the subject matter itself is because of what's Sonic's handling of it has been. Often I worry that if someone did come along who was able to write these kinds of stories well, it wouldn't go over well regardless because it's immediately "edgy" to do this sort of stuff.

And most of that fear, to be honest, does come from my personal reaction to Adventure 2, where I feel what it did was fine and on the level of something I'd see in a Saturday Morning Action-Adventure cartoon (which it later got adapted into actually) but it's still seen on the level of what Shadow and 06 did by some, which I feel are just wholly different in their presentation entirely. I suppose I just worry that the dial is getting turned back too far. 

 

I feel like it's inevitable that the game would catch some heat prerelease but if they really did do a good job it would reflect in the reception with the exception of a few outliers. When I really think about it, I don't even think Sonic Forces has been getting THAT much shit thrown at it for it's tone, and that game has botched it's presentation a few times now.

I don't really want to make this conversation about SA2. I just think that while its not as bad as 06 or Shadow, it's own presentation problems plus the fact that it aged poorly makes me see why it gets hate.

[Joellui]

Well I don't think the rare deaths that happened in Sonic games were all that bad.I think they did their job, they moved the story forward and that's it. Although surpisignley they executed it pretty well, besides Sonic 06, I'm more talking about pre-Sonic 06; with Maria and the like.

Don't really know why is there such a debate about the topic in the first place.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

I feel like it's inevitable that the game would catch some heat prerelease but if they really did do a good job it would reflect in the reception with the exception of a few outliers. When I really think about it, I don't even think Sonic Forces has been getting THAT much shit thrown at it for it's tone, and that game has botched it's presentation a few times now.

I don't really want to make this conversation about SA2. I just think that while its not as bad as 06 or Shadow, it's own presentation problems plus the fact that it aged poorly makes me see why it gets hate.

That line is as unoriginal and repetitive as most edge related things...

This and that critic say it, BOOM! A billion times everybody starts saying it with a shrug and wave of their hand. Come on, move on from that and have something new to say even if negative. It's not the thought itself, but its repetition. Be negative, but be original with that negativity. We can at least make our feedback more creative even if the franchise itself isn't doing so hot in this field.

13 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Well, I don't mean to say that they should just shove whatever story in there for the hell of it. After all, it wouldn't fit if that were the case. And if it doesn't fit, it's chances of coming off as well written are already going to be damaged. 

Most of this is just me wondering if the stories could ever conceivably manage it at all. Ignoring what's realistically likely to happen of course.

Realistically, I wouldn't even bother posing the question because I know most likely it won't ever reach the level we're all comfortable with but it was some nice food for thought for me.

Then again, if I know it's never going to happen, worrying about it is kind of pointless too. 

I think they could make many things work if they just had different/better writers. The only limitations on something are the limitations within those behind the product. If they can't do any better what they release is always going to be more of the same, no more, no less.

[Wraith]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

That line is as unoriginal and repetitive as most edge related things...

This and that critic say it, BOOM! A billion times everybody starts saying it with a shrug and wave of their hand. Come on, move on from that and have something new to say even if negative. It's not the thought itself, but its repetition. Be negative, but be original with that negativity. We can at least make our feedback more creative even if the franchise itself isn't doing so hot in this field,

Nah, I think SA2 has aged poorly, and there's not really many "creative" ways to get that across.. I came to that conclusion examining the dialogue, art direction, gameplay and voice direction on my own, and this is going from someone who doesn't really have any strong feelings about the game. If you're going to accuse me of just parroting other people and not actually refute what I said then don't bother pointing it out. 

[Dr. Detective]

I love SA2:B but that game hasn't aged as gracefully as I'd have hoped.

This is also especially true for SA1 actually. That game felt aged the instant I played it, which was a little after I first got my Gamecube sometime after being enamoured with Sonic Heroes. Although, people seem to give SA1 a pass on that from what I've noticed. On a lot of things actually. People really love it's soundtrack which... I like but there's always a part of me that just goes "Yeah it's really good but... I can't say it's my favorite. It just sounds so... old..."

But I still really like them. And I still believe a lot of what they did can still do some good for the series. Just handle it in a way that doesn't age as badly and you're golden.

[Tracker_TD]

7 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

That line is as unoriginal and repetitive as most edge related things...

Sonic Adventure 2 has been eroded by the waves of time. Once held as a shining beacon of some form, the ticking hands of the clock have cast across its surface violently, leaving comparably little to appreciate. Days, months, years; all taking their toll on the form of what was assured to be a classic upon release. Can we learn something from this past for our future? Perhaps it is a lesson on standards, and how the minutes can damage what we once treasured.

 

Or y'know, I can just say it aged fuckin' badly, like a normal person.