Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Mr. Armstrong]

4 hours ago, Tara said:

I know people with $1000 gaming rigs who still can't run Chemical Plant very well, but can run arguably more powerful games perfectly fine.  It's weird.

You do not need to spend so much to play decently you can buy CPU as I5-6600K less than $300 and you can use GPU like RX 480 and you can play without problem in 1080p

With my old i7-2600 I can still play to 1440p in some cases 4k for games like Alien Isolation.

[Scar]

19 minutes ago, TheLaw34 said:

How is using a system that works lazy are 2d games suddenly an easy cop out that only lazy developers do? What's wrong with automatically adjusting the camera to keep flow and great transitions instead of making the player do it? There is nothing lazy about 2d segments unless the developer decides to not try to make a good level which they can just as easily do in 3d.

I suppose that's fair enough, so I concede. However, like I said, I'd prefer it not to become a major part of gameplay as it did in Colours or even in some stages in Generations. It would be fine if the 2D segments were used for some cool flashy set-pieces or as a short change of pace, however when it comprises 25 - 50% of the total gameplay, what's the point? Particularly if you're making a game where you have two playable characters, one of which 100% 2D? The end result is a game which is 60 - 75% 2D, so why not just make a 2D game?

It seems lazy to me in the context of recent Sonic games, because the actual 3D gameplay is frequently very shallow and features long stretches of blast forward and quickstep left and right - even in Generations, where they actively tried to include more 3D platforming, much of the challenging and interestingly designed platforming sections were in 2D. Planet Wisp had a quick, breezy and beautiful 3D section before turning into a marathon of 2D. Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Seaside Hill and even Crisis City and Rooftop Run had fairly lengthy 2D platforming sequences.

Its a problem and a crutch to me, when a false dichotomy where 3D = Speed and 2D = platforming is generated. And make no mistake, there has been a tendency for recent Sonic Team games to be designed in such a way.

Like I said, I don't mind it as a quick change of pace or to facilitate some showmanship and dazzling set-pieces, but when it starts to become a major pillar of the gameplay - particularly the place where most of the challenging platforming takes place, its a problem to me.

[TheLaw34]

5 minutes ago, Scar said:

Like I said, I don't mind it as a quick change of pace or to facilitate some showmanship and dazzling set-pieces, but when it starts to become a major pillar of the gameplay - particularly the place where most of the challenging platforming takes place, its a problem to me.

I'm against anythign just being showmanship or set pieces I want good gameplay whether 3d or 2d. I want developer with enough creativity to have good gameplasy een with things look cool

[Scar]

1 minute ago, TheLaw34 said:

I'm against anythign just being showmanship or set pieces I want good gameplay whether 3d or 2d. I want developer with enough creativity to have good gameplasy een with things look cool

Set-pieces don't need to be automated.

[Tara]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Armstrong said:

You do not need to spend so much to play decently you can buy CPU as I5-6600K less than $300 and you can use GPU like RX 480 and you can play without problem in 1080p

With my old i7-2600 I can still play to 1440p in some cases 4k for games like Alien Isolation.

My point wasn't that a lot of money needed to be spent but that Generations is extremely picky and selective when it comes to what wants to work right with it and what doesn't.

[Milo]

1 hour ago, TheLaw34 said:

I don't think that proving a point that 3d is good is a good reason to totally remove 2d you can be totally confident that the 3d is great but still have good ideas for 2d segments and not let those go to waste.

This would be a fair argument if this game wasn't likely to already have half of its levels dedicated for 2D gameplay anyway; thanks to classic Sonic's appearance and what it implies. Regardless of what style of 2D Sonic said 2D gameplay takes after, the worry that a higher ratio of 3D gameplay would rob any ideas for good 2D gameplay is likely to be largely unfounded, given the possible direction this game will plausibly take.

And speaking of which, while there are differences to classic Sonic's 2D gameplay and modern Sonic's 2D gameplay; I am really skeptical of the sentiment that there is a significant sector of the fanbase vocally vouching for modern Sonic to still have 2D gameplay in his playstyle for this game or in the future. Considering that section of the fanbase has received three consecutive main (modern) Sonic games so far that have a high(er) ratio of 2D gameplay / levels to 3D gameplay / levels over the past six years (and if you count the handheld games, six games overall that have modern Sonic 2D gameplay), I wouldn't blame them for not speaking up in the first place.

And that's not even getting into representation of any 2D Sonic gameplay in the first place, 2D Sonic fans are set to receive Sonic Mania and Boom: Fire and Ice in the near future as it is. If you ask me, Sonic 2017 isn't preconditioned to pony up any 2D gameplay at all.

So I hope you'll forgive me for not knowing why the argument that 3D Sonic gameplay, could for once maybe get some semblance of priority in Sonic 2017's game design, is even being challenged in the first place.

[Sonic The Badass]

10 hours ago, Tara said:

I know people with $1000 gaming rigs who still can't run Chemical Plant very well, but can run arguably more powerful games perfectly fine.  It's weird.

Yea really weird, I've ran the game fine on a 9800GT (idk framerate but atleast 30), a GTX 760 at solid 60fps both cards using a i5 750, and now GTX 1070 with a 6600k @ 4K 60FPS. 

I never had any issues with the game for about 2 years. Then it started crashing, and I'd have to restart my PC cause my controller would get stuck vibrating or my soundcard would keep stuttering. As for Lost World, heard about the issues but didn't have any myself (besides Discord overlay crashing the game.)

[VolatileMike]

I want them to focus on 60 fps on consoles for this one more than I care about 3D vs 2D. That being said, I'd prefer 3D gameplay all the way. 

[SonicFreak94]

11 minutes ago, VolatileMike said:

I want them to focus on 60 fps on consoles for this one more than I care about 3D vs 2D. That being said, I'd prefer 3D gameplay all the way. 

 May I ask why your biggest concern about the next game is the framerate on the console versions???  

SLoW had 60fps and it helped nothing.

[VolatileMike]

9 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

 May I ask why your biggest concern about the next game is the framerate on the console versions???  

SLoW had 60fps and it helped nothing.

Oh god. I'm assuming you're pretty young.

My brand new laptop isn't much more powerful than my PS4. I'd like to have a ps4 game that runs at a buttery-smooth framerate because it does make a difference when you're going 300 mph

[LoseR]

12 hours ago, JingleBoy said:

If it turns out that this actually wasn't pre-rendered CGI and this actually is what Sonic will look like in-game... then I'm kind of disappointed. See, I really liked what SEGA were doing with Modern Sonic's design and how they were gradually making him look shorter; take Sonic Runners for example:

(the Runners look didn't work as well for Omega and Big, but the other characters looked really cool)

I get that if both Classic and Modern are going to be in the same game then they'll want to exaggerate the differences between the two, but still, I'm really hoping the Runners look will stick around. There were parts of that game that were worth salvaging.

(also, I could never stand how flipping massive modern Sonic's hands are when Marza animates him - yeah I'm that nitpicky)

Honestly I think the model changes aren't necessarily to make the characters look better, but to truncate them and make them fit better on a mobile screen.

Anyways, I do think as well that Modern Sonic could look better. He's still a bit too "soft" looking for my taste, as opposed to his sharpness seen in the Adventure games. Another minute detail that bugs me (a lot actually) is that you can visibly see between the spikes on the back of his head, even for Classic Sonic's current model. :/

[Mr. Armstrong]

Have a good framerate is important for any game, just remember Unleashed when the quicktime event sometimes do not work properly for the poor framerate.

[Hiki]

34 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

 May I ask why your biggest concern about the next game is the framerate on the console versions???  

SLoW had 60fps and it helped nothing.

Nobody wants a choppy game. Especially when it revolves around a character meant to move at really high speeds.

[TheLaw34]

9 hours ago, Gabe said:

So I hope you'll forgive me for not knowing why the argument that 3D Sonic gameplay, could for once maybe get some semblance of priority in Sonic 2017's game design, is even being challenged in the first place.

Was it challenged? I said that I didn't want it to be removed entirely and that I agreed I want more 3d but I also think MODERN 2d can be fun and there is no reason to have it totally disappear instead of just very toned down.

9 hours ago, Gabe said:

This would be a fair argument if this game wasn't likely to already have half of its levels dedicated for 2D gameplay

Ideas will go to waste since there are tons of level designs that don't work with classic sonic unless we are going to assume he will play more like modern sonic off of a 30 second trailer.. so I fail to see how having half the gameplay be with classic sonic makes my point any less fair.

 

[SonicFreak94]

3 hours ago, VolatileMike said:

Oh god. I'm assuming you're pretty young.

My brand new laptop isn't much more powerful than my PS4. I'd like to have a ps4 game that runs at a buttery-smooth framerate because it does make a difference when you're going 300 mph

I haven't noticed a Sonic game having a poor framerate since unleashed. 

I think Sonic has bigger problems at the moment regardless.

[VolatileMike]

56 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

I haven't noticed a Sonic game having a poor framerate since unleashed. 

I think Sonic has bigger problems at the moment regardless.

It's the thing I'm most worried that they won't fix. Generations had framerate problems while Lost World felt amazing by comparison. 

[Sonic The Badass]

3 hours ago, VolatileMike said:

It's the thing I'm most worried that they won't fix. Generations had framerate problems while Lost World felt amazing by comparison. 

Well, they praised the Wii U for the fact that they could he 60fps on it. Even stressing that their art style for the game was meant to look simplistic yet beautiful so they could hit 60fps. 

 

7 hours ago, reflection_of said:

 May I ask why your biggest concern about the next game is the framerate on the console versions???  

SLoW had 60fps and it helped nothing.

If you're assuming framerate isn't important in a speedy game, you haven't played Generations at 60fps yet. Feels way better without the crappy drops. And if you want a quick game that relies on reflex, having the framerate at anything lower than 60 is a bad move. I think it's important for a fast game to feel fast and not choppy. Or else it will destroy the entire experience.

[Milo]

9 hours ago, TheLaw34 said:

Ideas will go to waste since there are tons of level designs that don't work with classic sonic unless we are going to assume he will play more like modern sonic off of a 30 second trailer.. so I fail to see how having half the gameplay be with classic sonic makes my point any less fair.

Except your post that I replied to did not refer to about any specific style of 2D Sonic, it just said 2D Sonic:

19 hours ago, TheLaw34 said:

I don't think that proving a point that 3d is good is a good reason to totally remove 2d you can be totally confident that the 3d is great but still have good ideas for 2d segments and not let those go to waste.

...that and your reply left out the rest of my response:

"This would be a fair argument if this game wasn't likely to already have half of its levels dedicated for 2D gameplay anyway; thanks to classic Sonic's appearance and what it implies. Regardless of what style of 2D Sonic said 2D gameplay takes after, the worry that a higher ratio of 3D gameplay would rob any ideas for good 2D gameplay is likely to be largely unfounded, given the possible direction this game will plausibly take."

...so you're kinda misquoting my argument, which doesn't help your case.

But I'll humor you--what exactly does modern Sonic have in his level design that doesn't work with classic Sonic gameplay? I don't see anything in the current crop of 2D Sonic games that really screams to be tailored towards modern Sonic in such a way that the classic gameplay is incompatible. Modern Sonic's 2D sections is relatively basic precision platforming that you can find in virtually every other platformer. If anything, there are even hacks of Generations in particular that show classic Sonic being able to be played in modern Sonic's levels just fine for the most part (with only a handful of things needing to be retooled like some springs or platformers), and the same situation also applies to modern Sonic in classic Sonic's levels.

[TheLaw34]

2 hours ago, Gabe said:

Except your post that I replied to did not refer to about any specific style of 2D Sonic, it just said 2D Sonic:

I have been arguing specifically against the total removal of modern 2d for the last day, just think about the context next time.

2 hours ago, Gabe said:

...that and your reply left out the rest of my response,so you're kinda misquoting my argument, which doesn't help your case.

I responded to your entire argument and took out the end to save space while still making it obvious which part I was respondingd to. It did not hurt my case at all. You said "given the possible direction the game would take" to which I responded "unless we are going to assume he will play more like modern sonic off of a 30 second trailer..  I fail to see how having half the gameplay be with classic sonic makes my point any less fair. "

 

2 hours ago, Gabe said:

But I'll humor you

Your response is indeed quite the joke.

2 hours ago, Gabe said:

 I don't see anything in the current crop of 2D Sonic games that really screams to be tailored towards modern Sonic in such a way that the classic gameplay is incompatible. 

If you don't see it you are either not looking or not thinking. The fact that he can get through the level changes nothing since it plays totally different than someone playing as modern sonic would get through it. If you really think that removing 5 moves from a characters repertoire is not going to change level design then you are just being silly. 

[Milo]

1 hour ago, TheLaw34 said:

I have been arguing specifically against the total removal of modern 2d for the last day, just think about the context next time.

I responded to your entire argument and took out the end to save space while still making it obvious which part I was respondingd to. It did not hurt my case at all. You said "given the possible direction the game would take" to which I responded "unless we are going to assume he will play more like modern sonic off of a 30 second trailer..  I fail to see how having half the gameplay be with classic sonic makes my point any less fair. "

Saying that you've spent your entire day arguing about modern 2D in particular doesn't change the fact that you didn't specify that modern 2D was what you were referring to was in that post. You can go ahead and imply it's my fault for not recognizing it, but that's not actually changing what your post says.

And no, you didn't respond to my entire argument. I said worrying about 2D game ideas taken up by 3D gameplay doesn't make sense when half of the game is 2D, irregardless of what style of 2D Sonic it takes after. That's to say, it wouldn't matter if it's boost 2D or classic 2D or any other type of "2D" Sonic--you still have half the game likely dedicated to 2D gameplay, so no, a higher ratio of 3D gameplay wouldn't take 2D Sonic gameplay ideas away.

1 hour ago, TheLaw34 said:

Your response is indeed quite the joke.

I wasn't trying to be snide, but OK.

1 hour ago, TheLaw34 said:

If you don't see it you are either not looking or not thinking. The fact that he can get through the level changes nothing since it plays totally different than someone playing as modern sonic would get through it. If you really think that removing 5 moves from a characters repertoire is not going to change level design then you are just being silly. 

You said level design in your previous post, not the overall gameplay. What you are referring to are the game mechanics and controls; not the actual way the level is designed as you asserted is incompatible between the two. The videos show that both Sonics are rarely --if ever-- prohibited from completing the levels because of the actual level structure -- even given that both modern and classic Sonic have different gameplay moves and controls--; hence why I'm saying I'm not seeing anything in level design that separates the two characters as you're saying.

And even if "I don't see it", you could at least try telling me what I'm not seeing instead of resorting to cheap shots.

[TheLaw34]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

You said level design in your previous post, not the overall gameplay. What you are referring to are the game mechanics and controls; not the actual way the level is designed as you asserted is incompatible between the two. The videos show that both Sonics are rarely --if ever-- prohibited from completing the levels because of the actual level structure -- even given that both modern and classic Sonic have different gameplay moves and controls--; hence why I'm saying I'm not seeing anything in level design that separates the two characters as you're saying. if "I don't see it", you could at least try telling me what I'm not seeing instead of resorting to cheap shots.

Gameplay and level design can not be separated. Game mechanics and abilities decide how you design a level. Just because a character can finish the level does not mean anything. The level was made assuming the player would boost to take shortcuts, would homing attack to do the platforming and would have levels built around that it would be made so that sonic has to stomp with precise timing and then use a boost for instant speed. The level is designed to facilitate things like this(those were basic examples) and have platforms,enemies,gimmicks placed in areas that make it fun to go through when using those abilities. Just saying "Well classic sonic can get through the level too" does not change the fact that the ideas the developers had for what would make it actually fun are not being put to work. 

 

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

And no, you didn't respond to my entire argument.  I said worrying about 2D game ideas taken up by 3D gameplay doesn't make sense when half of the game is 2D, irregardless of what style of 2D Sonic it takes after.

yes I did.. I stated I disagreed and gave reasons why I disagreed. What are you talking about?  Anyway I'm just gonna stop talking about this and will comment when If I have something to talk about that is a little more relevant to this game.

[Spooky Mulder]

How about this for an unconventional game design? Levels designed to simultaneously be played from a 3D or 2D perspective depending on how you want to approach them. Imagine levels designed so that you can play them like a sidescroller or you can swap perspective to free up your movement on the z-axis to choose between cooridors and pathways, move within open rooms, etc. Sort of like Super Paper Mario's changing perspective?

Modern Sonic would retain his boost moveset and be playable when you swap to 3D and Classic Sonic would retain abilities like the spin dash and rolling in 2D?

[TheLaw34]

9 minutes ago, Spooky Mulder said:

How about this for an unconventional game design? Levels designed to simultaneously be played from a 3D or 2D perspective depending on how you want to approach them. Imagine levels designed so that you can play them like a sidescroller or you can swap perspective to free up your movement on the z-axis to choose between cooridors and pathways, move within open rooms, etc. Sort of like Super Paper Mario's changing perspective?

Modern Sonic would retain his boost moveset and be playable when you swap to 3D and Classic Sonic would retain abilities like the spin dash and rolling in 2D?

Doing that would put a huge amount of limitations on what you can do and gives tons of extra work to the developer to make sure it's fun from both perspectives. Also it seems very likely to become a huge focus of the entire game which does not seem like something most fans would want. They certainly "could" do it< I don't think they should.

[Milo]

49 minutes ago, TheLaw34 said:

Gameplay and level design can not be separated. Game mechanics and controls decide how you design a level. Just because a character can finish the level does not mean anything. The level was made assuming the player would boost to take shortcuts, would homing attack to do the platforming and would have levels built around that it would be made so that sonic has to stomp with precise timing and then use a boost for instant speed. The level is designed to facilitate things like this(those were basic examples) and have platforms,enemies,gimmicks placed in areas that make it fun to go through. Just saying "Well classic sonic can get through the level too" does not change the fact that the ideas the developers had for what would make it actually fun are not being put to work.

Take Sonic and all of his gameplay quirks that go with him, from let's say Sonic Unleashed (including but not limited to boosting, sliding, homing attack, et. al.). Drop them as they are straight into into, say, Super Mario 3D World. Does this automatically change the entire game's level design? No it doesn't, because all you've done is insert a different gameplay style directly into the game.

Conversely, take Super Bell Hill (first level of the game) from 3D World as it stands, and then add it to Sonic Unleashed as a playable level. Does it suddenly turn Sonic Unleashed's gameplay into a Mario game? Not all of, because you've have only inserted a differently-designed level directly into the game.

To tie this back to the Generations hacks I posted, they illustrate both classic and modern Sonics with their respective gameplay being functional in each others' levels, with minimal modifications. This is in spite of said respective gameplay for both Sonics not specifically being designed in each other's levels in question.

Gameplay and level design can influence each other as you've said, but they are not inherently bound. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[azoo]

Honestly, if this were a tad slower (cuz both the homing attack and boost are too fast for this level design), I'd almost prefer this to just playing as classic Sonic in Gens.

I can see classic and modern style gameplay fusing pretty nicely if Sega were to approach it right. A slower, less powerful and easier to drain boost + turning the slide into a roll (with the proper mechanics) could make for some extremely interesting game design. Imagine reserving the boost for more straightaway areas while using rolling to take advantage of especially slopey areas.. it could be really great.