Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

Here's the issue I see...

By and large people are either negative about Forces, asking "why?" in more ways than one would bother counting, or just having fun with the ideas being used in the game, joking about it and doing "meme" related things as others have point out.

So...

This is a problem because it essentially means very, very few are interested in the game from a purchase perspective. Buying it isn't likely to be a priority for many/most that are putting in the effort to comment on the title. It's a product people are either unhappy about or just want to have a good laugh about, be it a positive or negative consumer I don't see either side of the fence reaching into their pockets for the Forces title, not until there's a sale/reduction.

It's an issue if SEGA misinterprets people saying "we're having fun" about Forces as "we're buying it" basically. When a title has little going for it in a positive light besides people coming out of the woodwork to make jokes/puns/memes/references/etc, then there's still a problem.

There is very, very little in the way of genuine positive feedback toward the title, and from what i can tell, the only legitimate defense those for it have are your basic "Hater!!" and "Fanboy!!" type of comments to negativity.

[Nepenthe]

On 6/2/2017 at 2:38 PM, JackIsInTheStadium said:

Tl;dr but the custom characters were what most of the Sonic fans wanted, nowadays they hate on everything SEGA does.

Citation needed on this.

I've seen more asks for Cream to be playable again rather than people's own characters.

[blazefan519]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I've seen more asks for Cream to be playable again rather than people's own characters.

Citation needed for this.

I've never seen anyone ask for Cream to be playable.

[Nepenthe]

At least 100 kids for you. Bam.

Edit: Potentially more people on the Sega Forums.

[blazefan519]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

At least 100 kids for you. Bam.

Great stuff.

[Chris Knopps]

...I wanna play as Cream again...

...I miss Invincible Chao...

[Nepenthe]

Also notice how quick I was to at least find some sources of my claim.

I honestly would like someone to find a sizable contingent of people who wanted a CaC in a Sonic game. People keep insisting that this was an obvious thing to add to the games due to nothing but the mere existence of the fan community, but this existence keeps being conflated with desiring action from a game company which isn't the same thing. I've been on SSMB since 2005 and I literally have never seen this kind of crossover where fan creatives like me were insisting that we wanted to extend this kind of thing to the games proper.

Really, I feel if it's "so obvious that most fans/everyone wanted it," you could find any myriad of SSMB threads where we complain into the aether about what we want and find at least five people who wanted this. This shouldn't be that hard, surely.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

Also notice how quick I was to at least find some sources of my claim.

I honestly would like someone to find a sizable contingent of people who wanted a CaC in a Sonic game. People keep insisting that this was an obvious thing to add to the games due to nothing but the mere existence of the fan community, but this existence keeps being conflated with desiring action from a game company which isn't the same thing. I've been on SSMB since 2005 and I literally have never seen this kind of crossover where fan creatives like me were insisting that we wanted to extend this kind of thing to the games proper.

Really, I feel if it's "so obvious that most fans/everyone wanted it," you could find any myriad of SSMB threads where we complain into the aether about what we want and find at least five people who wanted this. This shouldn't be that hard, surely.

I... Think they're saying "This was the obvious thing to do" because of just how many franchises feature custom characters nowadays.

Kind of how "This was the obvious thing to do" in Breath of the Wild with the Open World thing.

The only problem is that, while it IS technically an obvious thing to do for the franchise, it's not a good thing because unlike how people WANTED the Open World in Zelda, it's not the same for Custom Characters in Sonic.

People see other franchises doing Open World more and more, it followed suit Zelda would do the same because it was a widespread consumer demand by majority. In the case of Sonic it just followed suit to do OC's because it's what the other franchises are doing and SEGA's desperate despite being AGAINST widespread consumer demand.

(Well... I guess to the extent of OC's that is. Been begging for alternate outfits for Sonic and co. for YEARS now.)

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

I... Think they're saying "This was the obvious thing to do" because of just how many franchises feature custom characters nowadays.

People keep bringing up Xenoverse and other MMO/RPGs where the point for years has been to make your own custom character within reason. Outside of those genres, this hasn't been proven to be a widespread thing; it certainly isn't in most platformers, which is what Sonic is. Mario, Rayman, Donkey Kong, Crash, indies like Shovel Knight and Rain World-- no one is refraining from buying these because there isn't a CaC.

Besides, that's not what this post and others have said:

Quote

the custom characters were what most of the Sonic fans wanted

This is an assertion that "most Sonic fans" wanted Sega to put this in the games, and assertions need proof to be credible. But every ask for proof in this topic has gone ignored. People just keep insisting that the existence of people who make fan characters directly translates into a marketing demographic that will only put down money for a product that caters to that specific niche' interest, which not only hasn't been supported by any kind of proof, but has been inadvertently disagreed with by the same people who keep pushing this narrative when you apply this same exact reasoning to far more outlandish things Sonic fans do and create like porn.

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Kind of how "This was the obvious thing to do" in Breath of the Wild with the Open World thing.

The only problem is that, while it IS technically an obvious thing to do for the franchise, it's not a good thing because unlike how people WANTED the Open World in Zelda, it's not the same for Custom Characters in Sonic.

People wanted an open-world Zelda because Zelda is commonly credited with kickstarting the foundational ideas of the whole genre. There's an actual context there other than "well, other people are doing it," (which I always counter with shooting mechanics. FPS games are still extremely popular, but this doesn't mean most people want a Sonic or Zelda FPS game). I don't remember Sonic doing this with CaC's in games. I remember him rolling a whole lot. Following from that, one of the biggest demands on Sega is for rolling to become a staple of the 3D games again in a meaningful way.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

I remember him rolling a whole lot. Following from that, one of the biggest demands on Sega is for rolling to become a staple of the 3D games again in a meaningful way.

That moment when something is hilarious, then you realize how much it truthfully hurts afterwards.

[JosepHenry]

Nobody wanted CaC more than playable characters other than Sonic, Recolor Sonic, Wolf Sonic and Kid Sonic.

And CaC makes people even more angry, because Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Blaze have not been playable in 3D since 11 years ago. (Not counting BK)

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

Nobody wanted CaC more than playable characters other than Sonic, Recolor Sonic, Wolf Sonic and Kid Sonic.

And CaC makes people even more angry, because Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Blaze have not been playable in 3D since 11 years ago. (Not counting BK)

Well...

We're kind of still in an era of consistently spouting 06 anytime characters come up. 06 is the counterargument anytime anything besides what SEGA is doing in the here and now with any aspect of a game is brought up really...

So many years...

[JosepHenry]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Well...

We're kind of still in an era of consistently spouting 06 anytime characters come up. 06 is the counterargument anytime anything besides what SEGA is doing in the here and now with any aspect of a game really...

So many years...

Ugh, SEGA don't be dumb is not cuz the characterswere playable that was the problem, it was because the characterswere slow, badly written, clunky...

I guess they don't realize that since 2008....

[Neo_Fire_Sonic]

14 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

Nobody wanted CaC more than playable characters other than Sonic, Recolor Sonic, Wolf Sonic and Kid Sonic.

And CaC makes people even more angry, because Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Blaze have not been playable in 3D since 11 years ago. (Not counting BK)

knuckles,tails, and amy were playable in sonic boom

[JosepHenry]

Just now, Neo_Fire_Sonic said:

knuckles,tails, and amy were playable in sonic boom

MAIN GAME

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Neo_Fire_Sonic said:

knuckles,tails, and amy were playable in sonic boom

Time out for you. No candy...

(Though... I admit I did chuckle at that one. Touche.)

[Bobnik]

This whole debate on existence of avatar creator in a Sonic game reminds me of the reception Fire Emblem Awakening got. Sure, the character creation was more expected there because it's a strategy RPG, but I do recall fans of the series disliking this idea. Yet when the game came out, a lot of people bought it, the critics and newer fans loved it, and it pretty much paved the future for the franchise. It did divide the fanbase into 2 and both were eating each others' throats for quite some time.

I think this game will have somewhat similar reception - newer fans and critics might like it, older fans most certainly will not (if they do not hate it already). I do want other characters to be playable and I still hope this OC creation is a one-off thing, like Classic Sonic should have been in Generations (I might defend OC creation, but I will never defend the inclusion of Classic Sonic in Forces, it's dumb), but eh, I'm not against it like many people here. 

[blazefan519]

3 minutes ago, Bobnik said:

This whole debate on existence of avatar creator in a Sonic game reminds me of the reception Fire Emblem Awakening got. Sure, the character creation was more expected there because it's a strategy RPG, but I do recall fans of the series disliking this idea. Yet when the game came out, a lot of people bought it, the critics and newer fans loved it, and it pretty much paved the future for the franchise. It did divide the fanbase into 2 and both were eating each others' throats for quite some time.

I think this game will have somewhat similar reception - newer fans and critics might like it, older fans most certainly will not (if they do not hate it already).I did want other characters playable and I still hope this OC creation is a one-off thing, like Classic Sonic should have been in Generations (I might defend OC creation, but I will never defend the inclusion of Classic Sonic in Forces, it's dumb), but eh, I'm not against it like many people here. 

Pls don't remind me of the FE fanbase. The divide is so ridiculous and it doesn't need to exist. But I could see a similar situation here,and if that happens then, RIP. We'll have another divide in the fanbase, which we already have enough of.

[JosepHenry]

Well, so older fans are doomed if we think like FE.

Awakening is the end of Fire Emblem for a lot of fans, yet is the saving grace of the series.

*AHHHEM*

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Joseph Mello said:

Well, so older fans are doomed if we think like FE.

Awakening is the end of Fire Emblem for a lot of fans, yet is the saving grace of the series.

*AHHHEM*

Why is this happening here? lol

[Sonikko]

The demand for an OC creator in games was definitely not there. By this I mean that I don't have proof in my hands that nobody wanted a character creator but I do check many places multiple times a day, everyday (yep lots of free time), and never a topic about a character creator jumped to my eyes in the last 10 years.

If somebody wanted it it was a very small minority. So I guess it's safe to say that the demand wasn't really there. 

Now that it's an official thing some fans might like it and say yeah it's a good idea, but it's not something that makes sense in a mascot platformer. 

From Wikipedia:

A mascot is any person, animal, or object thought to bring luck, or anything used to represent a group with a common public identity, such as a school, professional sports team, society, military unit, or brand name. Mascots are also used as fictional, representative spokespeople for consumer products, such as the rabbit used in advertising and marketing for the General Mills brand of breakfast cereal, Trix.

What does this mean? By putting the design of characters in the hands of fans they're giving up on something that's really important for Sonic. Design.

Mascots, Logos, everything that has to do with brands is very very important and must be very carefully designed. Every character of important platformers is always thoughtfully designed, and has charm and characteristics.

Putting bland, generic, overdesigned original characters in a main Sonic game, and promoting that as a game-selling feature is not a good idea imho.

Sonic's design for example, it conveys lots of things.

First of all the silouhette is iconic and recognizable.

He's a hedgehog so he can curl into a ball, a main game mechanic. He's aerodynamic, 'cause he runs fast. What does the OC in the CGI convey? Nothing. The silouhette is generic, he's overdesigned and out of place with other Sonic characters and his design does not tell what he's about.

I just can't bring myself to think that this is good by any chance, and the fact that those designs look so hideous makes it even worse.

What really makes me mad is that they're ignoring what everyone else has been asking instead for years, multiple characters, more open boost design, less automation.

Man it took 5 years for Mania to be a thing after Sonic 4 Episode II. They're just not good at listening to demand.

[blazefan519]

24 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

Well, so older fans are doomed if we think like FE.

Awakening is the end of Fire Emblem for a lot of fans, yet is the saving grace of the series.

*AHHHEM*

Older fans got Echoes. So they're good.

[JosepHenry]

11 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

The demand for an OC creator in games was definitely not there. By this I mean that I don't have proof in my hands that nobody wanted a character creator but I do check many places multiple times a day, everyday (yep lots of free time), and never a topic about a character creator jumped to my eyes in the last 10 years.

If somebody wanted it it was a very small minority. So I guess it's safe to say that the demand wasn't really there. 

Now that it's an official thing some fans might like it and say yeah it's a good idea, but it's not something that makes sense in a mascotte platformer. 

From Wikipedia:

A mascot is any person, animal, or object thought to bring luck, or anything used to represent a group with a common public identity, such as a school, professional sports team, society, military unit, or brand name. Mascots are also used as fictional, representative spokespeople for consumer products, such as the rabbit used in advertising and marketing for the General Mills brand of breakfast cereal, Trix.

What does this mean? By putting the design of characters in the hands of fans they're giving up on something that's really important for Sonic. Design.

Mascottes, Logos, everything that has to do with brands is very very important and must be very carefully designed. Every character of important platformers is always thoughtfully designed, and has charm and characteristics.

Putting bland, generic, overdesigned original characters in a main Sonic game, and promoting that as a game-selling feature is not a good idea imho.

I just can't bring myself to think that this is good by any chance, and the fact that those designs look so hideous makes it even worse.

What really makes me mad is that they're ignoring what everyone else has been asking instead for years, multiple characters, more open boost design, less automation.

Man it took 5 years for Mania to be a thing after Sonic 4 Episode II. They're just not good at listening to demand.

 

ok, now you're being way too dramatic and overthinking this.

The design shown were bad, but is the least of the problems and I think you are caring too much about what character people will make. If someone make a white Sonic called Cinos, whatever! Is not going to damage nothing! I pity the wasted creativity, but what can we do?

Not offense whatsoever.

10 minutes ago, blazefan519 said:

Older fans got Echoes. So they're good.

Now where is the dreamcast era being represented besides Ike

[Shadowlax]

I mean I guess it could damage something

But that would require this game to be a level of ass that i'm not even suspect its going to be. 

Like unfinished, bad tone def story and customization optons level ass. Like sonic 06 and ROL had a child ass, and that child had all the worst aspects combined. 

[blazefan519]

5 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

Now where is the dreamcast era being represented besides Ike

Sega isn't Atlus, so I don't expect them to represent dreamcast folks, sorry.