Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[SenEDDtor Missile]

21 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

you liked Sonic 05?

The game that is all broken and badly coded and nearly killed the franchise?

What Sonic 05? All I remember is that one Shadow spinoff that was really bad.

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, Blacklightning said:

The first thing I gather from this is that someone has taken over his facilities and stripped the branding from them in the process. Which is interesting when you think about it, because I don't think we've seen Eggman himself yet.

Metal Sonic is up to his games again.

[Multikaris]

55 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Metal Sonic is up to his games again.

Or maybe Nega's not quite as dead as we thought...

[Waveshocker Sigma]

2 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

If it's Eggman we're talking about, I have to disagree. There's a reason he pastes some facsimile of his face onto most things he makes - he conquers not just for attention, but to establish a land in his own image, and I have a hard time believing that proves less true after he's already accomplished that. There's really no better indication of that than Eggmanland in Unleashed. He wants people to know who beat them.

The first thing I gather from this is that someone has taken over his facilities and stripped the branding from them in the process. Which is interesting when you think about it, because I don't think we've seen Eggman himself yet.

Unless this is a case like Metallic Madness Bad Future where he's become so complacent about his victory that he's become careless and feels like he doesn't need to bother keeping up with appearances and stuff anymore.

But that's just one possibility.

[Diogenes]

Even if you can come up with a logical reason for Eggman to make boring looking robots, that's no excuse for the people who have actually designed them to give terrible, boring robots to the people who will actually be an audience to them.

There's no thematic point worthwhile enough to excuse enemy designs so terrible that the player can't help but wonder if the designers didn't even finish them.

[Chris Knopps]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Even if you can come up with a logical reason for Eggman to make boring looking robots, that's no excuse for the people who have actually designed them to give terrible, boring robots to the people who will actually be an audience to them.

There's no thematic point worthwhile enough to excuse enemy designs so terrible that the player can't help but wonder if the designers didn't even finish them.

So... To simplify that in a way that isn't so head-scratching...

"The enemies in Sonic Forces are too generic/bare-bones in design."

"Something with more detail and/or depth would be preferable to Egg Pawns again."

Is... That close enough?

[Waveshocker Sigma]

21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Even if you can come up with a logical reason for Eggman to make boring looking robots, that's no excuse for the people who have actually designed them to give terrible, boring robots to the people who will actually be an audience to them.

There's no thematic point worthwhile enough to excuse enemy designs so terrible that the player can't help but wonder if the designers didn't even finish them.

Eh, it's not that bad to me.

I don't really care about that minor detail to begin with, though. I'm usually too busy destroying the robots to care about what they look like unless it's an Eggman-piloted mech or Metal Sonic.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

^ Agree. I feel like it's hard to get super angry at the design of things you're just gonna blow straight through anyway, you'd have to put a lot of effort in to get that mad.

 

That said, I recognize many of you take pride in your ability to put that effort in, so...sorry about that.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

^ Agree. I feel like it's hard to get super angry at the design of things you're just gonna blow straight through anyway, you'd have to put a lot of effort in to get that mad.

 

That said, I recognize many of you take pride in your ability to put that effort in, so...sorry about that.

I'm frustrated over Egg Pawns returning again myself. I miss the days of mecha bots and badniks.

Egg Pawns have been the main thing since Unleashed and have taken up an almost total role in being the sole enemies of the franchise and it's... Old...

I'm not p@$$ed to high hell over them, yet. But if this keeps up, probably will be.

I'm a salty s-o-b.

Edit

Or... Since Heroes I guess...

Gotta give the Genesis/Advance/Rush/Adventure games credit for having new enemies all the time at least.

I guess Egg pawns are just cheap and that's money to SEGA's ears over spending cash making a bunch of new things to fight.

[Milo]

This is kinda old news, but out of curiosity I went back and took another look at the Forces interview Iizuka gave back in April, albeit with the interview based on SonicJPNews' translation (compared to @Fusion Ellipsis 's rougher translation from earlier).

It seems my previous assumptions about the Hedgehog Engine 2 being a new engine or a game engine were wrong, as Iizuka in this translation says that "what we announced as ‘Hedgehog Engine 2’ this time is not something what we built up from scratch, but it is a step-up version powered with a new rendering engine to optimize it for next gen hardwares such as PS4, XBOX One, and Nintendo Switch."

So it sounds like really is an iterative update on the original HE engine, and is (still) a lighting engine as opposed to a game engine. Again, hopefully the "step-up version" doesn't have the drawbacks of the old engine, though the footage we've seen so far does look solid in its performance.

On another note, Iizuka also says that Sonic Team prefers using engines made in-house, with their justifications made on Sonic's speed: "[The] fast paced movement is necessary in Sonic series, so we don’t use a general purpose game engine but the one specially designed with our longtime know-how for high-speed processing. ... It is better to make the engine by ourselves than asking for it outside. There is a team formed exclusively for game engine development inside Japanese Sonic Team."

Iizuka also said that the design for the badniks is deliberately different, with a more "military" based design: "Eggman had thousands of minion robots until now too, but with this time’s concept of fighting against Eggman’s huge army, we made the robots’ design more military-like while keeping the animal motives as always. Not only the huge Death Egg robot in the footage, but enemies in the stages also have military based design added to the traditional Eggman taste."

Last, but not least, Iizuka says the design concept of the stages (referring to artstyle/aesthetics, apparently) follows upon Lost World's approach: "As a concept, we adopted the flow from ‘Sonic Lost World’ and told the team to create worldview that is not too realistic. It may look fairly realistic due to the high resolution, but if you look at details you’ll notice that the worldview is rather cartoonish. The silhouette of trees are simplified as needed, too."

[Chris Knopps]

6 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Last, but not least, Iizuka says the design concept of the stages (referring to artstyle/aesthetics, apparently) follows upon Lost World's approach: "As a concept, we adopted the flow from ‘Sonic Lost World’ and told the team to create worldview that is not too realistic. It may look fairly realistic due to the high resolution, but if you look at details you’ll notice that the worldview is rather cartoonish. The silhouette of trees are simplified as needed, too."

Yeah, because God forbid...

If they're talking about the terribly rendered, blocky trees in the background, that's not a style. That's being cheap due to budget.

[Celestia]

15 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I guess Egg pawns are just cheap and that's money to SEGA's ears over spending cash making a bunch of new things to fight.

Or they just like 'em. If it was just about reusing assets (which isn't a bad thing in itself when it comes to some aspects of game design, i.e. enemies, but I digress), they easily could've stuck with Unleashed's Egg Fighters in the following games, but they went back to a design they're clearly fond of.

[StaticMania]

Eggpawns aren't the only enemies in the games so it doesn't really matter, they were only ever the only enemies in Heroes.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Celestia said:

Or they just like 'em. If it was just about reusing assets (which isn't a bad thing in itself when it comes to some aspects of game design, i.e. enemies, but I digress), they easily could've stuck with Unleashed's Egg Fighters in the following games, but they went back to a design they're clearly fond of.

This has really been my primary issue with ST over the years. It's more-so about their whims and what they're fond of over consumer demand/feedback by and large, mixed with, I suppose, popular critical responses.

I can give Forces credit for seemingly steering towards what consumers expect more out of the franchise over something like Lost World in regards to tone and design and such, but still you can tell there's still too much of a "What We Want" thing happening.

It's not bad of course for game developers to put what they want in a game, but... Something about how they do it just feels smug to me, especially in the case of Wisps and the whole Creator thing in favor of other cast.

[Dr. Detective]

Yeah. Looking them over again, I still feel they're fine. The design is simple but I don't feel it's straight up bad. There is often a line I do recognize exists between what one could consider lazy and what one could consider simple.

I feel like the whole "Demonically possessed Eggs" angle is one they may actually be going for here. If so, then I approve of it for the base form of enemy. 

I'll be a bit more harsher should I see any unimpressive enemies appearing down the line however. 

On the whole, I'm not sure where my feelings lie on Forces. I suppose I'm more positive than negative at the moment due to the reveal of what it is they're actually trying to do with the game. Having a clearer picture of what to expect helps the game not appear as big of a mess of ideas as before. Yet, problems concerning how balanced it will be and why some things are around still persist. It doesn't help that everything I see Mania do continues to make me jealous for something that felt a little more clean and comfortable. So it really will be decided solely by how the game feels when it's out.

I'll reiterate that the game continues to look like it'll play just fine of course. However, I've never been one to give a game the passage into my line of favorites by being technically sound (Sonic Colors is a good indication of that). 

One may think it may win points with me just because it's plot is my literal most anticipated Sonic plot in history, but no. That only gives me more room to be even angrier should they screw it up. And with me anticipating the very awkward scenes where Sonic talks to Rad the Hedgehog  the Fan-Characters in the cutscenes I'm not feeling too hopeful about it right now.

And yet at the same time I'm still excited for it. Ignoring that fact despite all these concerns would be me lying to myself.

Not hyped. But excited. 

[Celestia]

19 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

This has really been my primary issue with ST over the years. It's more-so about their whims and what they're fond of over consumer demand/feedback by and large, mixed with, I suppose, popular critical responses.

I can give Forces credit for seemingly steering towards what consumers expect more out of the franchise over something like Lost World in regards to tone and design and such, but still you can tell there's still too much of a "What We Want" thing happening.

It's not bad of course for game developers to put what they want in a game, but... Something about how they do it just feels smug to me, especially in the case of Wisps and the whole Creator thing in favor of other cast.

You're assuming the worst of a dev team that probably isn't that well-informed on fan feedback. If you don't like choices they make that's fine, but attributing it to smugness is ridiculous.

[Milo]

Also forgot to mention that Iizuka in the translated interview is credited as the series executive producer, as opposed to the head of Sonic Team. Given how he has moved back to the US (which is now the main hub for Sonic) to oversee development of Sonic games, this could mean Sonic Team now has a new leader in charge. Though in terms of direction it might not mean anything (or at least, not mean anything right now), given how Iizuka is a producer for both Forces and Mania (though he seems to be very limited in input regarding the latter project).

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Celestia said:

You're assuming the worst of a dev team that probably isn't that well-informed on fan feedback. If you don't like choices they make that's fine, but attributing it to smugness is ridiculous.

Well... That's what Mr. Webber is supposed to be back for. If they're ignoring things he's very likely telling them, it can't be helped.

Big "if" there mind you.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

The only "if" is "if" Webber actually has as much power as you seem to think.

I'll answer that "if" right now: he doesn't. He just runs the social media pages. It would take a ton of work on his part to get into contact with the big names at Sonic team, and even more to actually make them take what he says seriously. He doesn't fuckin have Iizuka on speed dial.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

The only "if" is "if" Webber actually has as much power as you seem to think.

I'll answer that "if" right now: he doesn't. He just runs the social media pages. It would take a ton of work on his part to get into contact with the big names at Sonic team, and even more to actually make them take what he says seriously. He doesn't fuckin have Iizuka on speed dial.

Mr. Webber is the face of SEGA nowadays really so he should have some type of power/influence.

Should however does not mean he does... I am aware.

[MadmanRB]

2 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

What Sonic 05? All I remember is that one Shadow spinoff that was really bad.

Typo, I meant 06

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

Quote

Familiar from past project plan .... There was such a thing ... it seems. It was with the previous video.

Looks like some concept/animation art for the OC reveal trailer.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Fusion Ellipsis said:

Looks like some concept/animation art for the OC reveal trailer.

Looks like a new metal design to me.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

16 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Typo, I meant 06

I know, it was an attempt at a joke.

[Celestia]

21 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

The only "if" is "if" Webber actually has as much power as you seem to think.

I'll answer that "if" right now: he doesn't. He just runs the social media pages. It would take a ton of work on his part to get into contact with the big names at Sonic team, and even more to actually make them take what he says seriously. He doesn't fuckin have Iizuka on speed dial.

He's also only been in this position since roughly halfway through this game's development time, so it wouldn't matter anyway. This also goes for SEGA's general attempt to get back on track recently as well as Iizuka apparently moving to the SoA branch. If any of these things have any influence on Sonic Team's games whatsoever, we won't see it until, well...the next game.