Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[blazefan519]

6 hours ago, JackIsInTheStadium said:

But besides that, I have something to say, we did something, and it was something that no other gaming franchise fans have ever done, we used memes like we always did in the past, we ignored the internet, instead of making whatever there is as a meme, we made a huge mistake, and while we were making memes like we did, it was too much, we brought back something, it's not Sonic, because we always talk negative about him, it is Bubsy, We are Sonic fans, only to revive Bubsy, we have went too far with what we had and now, because jokes become reality, they are not jokes, they are seriouses but we need to remember this, What could possibly go wrong.

lol, Aaron already said that they had no idea or acknowledgement of the Bubsy thing.

[Blueknight V2.0]

Just wanted to clarify what I said in an earlier post, I like Sonic 2006 and don't like the Shadow game for several reasons, however I do like the CG cutscenes. I never played Shadow, because I bought it from goodwill for $5 and it was so scratched it didn't work. I have the Xbox 360 version of Sonic 2006 and have not experienced any major glitches, except one with shadow on a couple of levels where teleporting you wind up falling off a cliff or out of the level, other than that none whatsoever. I like 2006 mostly because of the CG cutscenes, the number of playable characters, removal of weapons from Shadow and also not being able to play the adventure Sonic games because of only having PS2, 360 and 3DS and not being able to find a Dreamcast or Gamecube in good condition cheap. Sonic Boom Fire and Ice I haven't tried yet, the classic games are alright but I like the Modern Sonic and Boom games more, however I can't play Rise of Lyric because I don't have a Wii U, unless they port it over to other systems. If Rise of Lyric was multi-platform it might've been better for PS3, PS4, Xbox 360/One, Wii U and PC.

I also have Sonic Unleashed and Generations for 360 and Lost World for 3ds and Sonic Mega Collection Plus for PS2 and plan on getting Sonic Boom Fire and Ice for 3DS to try the Boom games mostly because I like the show. Now the other games in my collection are better than Sonic 2006. I like 2006 a little more than the classic games, but I still like all the Sonic games in my collection alot, because Sonic is my #1 video game franchise above Sly Cooper and Ratchet & Clank.

[Kintor]

So, any word yet on who is preforming the vocals for Park Avenue (Custom Character)?

I can only assume that at this point everyone involved with the OST is under some sort of NDA until closer to release. Still, this does bode well; vocal tracks are something that has been sorely missing from recent Sonic games.

Anyway, I can’t wait to hear the full version of this song.

[Scritch the Cat]

19 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Hmm, I find it hard to care about what the badniks look like for the quarter of a second they're on screen before Sonic/ Bob the Accountant flamethrow/Boost their tragic remains into outerspace. As long as the bosses/ Set piece induced stronger enemies look more impressive.

Call me crazy, but I'd consider that less of a defense of poor enemy design and more of a denigration of how enemies are way too wimpy to justify even being in the game.  There does come a point in power disparity when the stronger party and its victory stops looking awesome and just starts looking boring, and right now, based on how it looks in action, the Sonics' and OC's simple elimination of enemies feels less like a mongoose or honey badger defeating a venomous snake, and more like me stepping on an ant with my shoe.

Shocked as I am to say it, I think Shadow the Hedgehog had more of the right idea on combat; not as in, we should give everyone guns (although the OC is getting them, anyway), but that it's alright to put in enemies that have some HP and can truly kill you if you don't stop what you're doing and fight them.  That's especially true because they seem to be going all grimdark again with this game.  If they really want to sell me that something's at stake from these rampaging robots, they should nail it home by showing how said robots can kill me.

[Salamander]

Lost World had enemies a little like that, and I think the problem there is that the players, and often enough the designers too, don't want Sonic to have to slow down or stop to defeat an enemy.  It runs contrary to the principles of the Boost games - and furthermore, the nature of the Boost games is such that you don't have any way of defeating enemies which isn't an easy blunt instrument.  There are only really two ways to approach an enemy in a 3D Boost game: You either beat them easily with the Boost or the Homing Attack, or you just go past them.  It's hard to make enemies both "quick to beat" and "actually dangerous."

In the 2D games, when confronted with an enemy, you basically had two options for how to attack them: Horizontally, and vertically.  That is, you could spindash into them or jump into the side of them, or you could hit them from directly below or above, depending on the nature of the badnik in question.  This also applies to how you'd go about simply avoiding them, actually.  But neither of those processes were as automated and one-button as the Boost and Homing Attack; you needed a certain measure of precision.  And yet because the speeds are lower and your movement directions more limited, it's comparatively easy to make relatively sophisticated movements to hit even a complex enemy - and if you can't figure out where to hit them, then you can still figure out how to dodge them and move on.  But in the Boost games, there's only really one direction you can approach most enemies from: The front.  You Boost into them or Homing Attack them, both of which are basically just one-button procedures with no timing element, and other than that, there's no other option for how to confront them.  Jumping on them in the manner of, say, jumping on a Motobug isn't really viable because of the speed Sonic moves at and the extra precision it requires in 3D.  You would also gain nothing from jumping on them, either; no boost in height or momentum.  So in a Boost game, if you don't attack them from the front, you just go past them.  This is why a lot of enemies in Boost games are more like platforming gimmicks; Homing Attack chains to get you to higher ground or to traverse platforms quickly.

As such, my approach to making more dangerous and sophisticated enemies in a Boost game would be to make ones which are harder to hit, but also easier and more legitimate to dodge.  You can stop and figure them out if you want, and maybe you'll get a reward for doing so, like a shortcut or a red ring.  But you can just as easily decide that you don't want to bother and choose any direction to go around them.  Enemies like that can be more complex obstacles rather than things which just die usefully or stylishly.

[Scritch the Cat]

Well then, to Hell with boost gameplay too, I say!  The case against it is mounting.

[Sega DogTagz]

Its that kind of limited thinking that got us the cannon fodder level enemies we see today.

Sure your standard fair trash mob enemies will almost always be encountered and blown away in such a manner. But that issue is not some inherent unwritten rule of the boost formula, but rather a lack of creativity and outside the box thinking for the dev team behind the concept. We've seen succsess in this field. Even the lowly motobug got a promotion. By utilizing its speed in Sonic Colors, there was an entire stage designed to fighting an old school enemy in a new way. By having the motobugs put that unicycle wheel to use, and move alongside Sonic, the essentially increased the reaction time available to deal with them as a threat. By running side by side with the enemies, new possibilities were opened up as to what they could reasonably expect the player to be able to deal with. Why we never saw that again I'll never know.

We saw this again in Unleashed with the Interceptor and the Aero Chaser. We saw it in Generations with the blimp. We saw it in Sonic 06 mach speed zones for crying out loud. If you want to have badniks that can do a little bit more than become living speed bumps, you have to give them the ability to move with Sonic. Freedom to chase, freedom to do what Sonic and his friends are best known for. The devs understand this. They have utilized it to a small extent, but we haven't seen it blossom to where it needs to be.

This philosophy isn't new. Look back to the classics. Heck, look at Mania. Just take a sample to the ratio of badniks that aggressively hunt the player as he moves by. (Usually with the ability to clip through walls no less). For every stationary, "I'mma attack u when you get in my range" Catterkiller, there is at least one Bat-Brain or Shutter-Fly with a raging hard on for blue hedgehog that just wont quit. There is a balance between badniks that hold/guard their turf and are a bit tougher to kill, vs smaller more nimble badniks that present more of a speedy challenge. The boost formula needs to reemphasize badniks to regain this. Right now robots are little more than set-pieces or stepping stones. There are very few that are meant to be true interference to your progression. Dev's need to re-establish that age old balance. A larger percentage of badniks need some sort of capability to force the players hand.

Dragon Road is a great example of this. Egg Fighters toting spring shields are specifically designed to be challenge for users whom over rely on the boost. They are strategically planted to force the player to avoid, or deal with them in a different way. To punish people who blindly march in with a homing shot or a boost. Much like the shield toting badniks of Casinopolis all those years ago, they are designed to take your signature move(s) and throw it back in your face. That is golden enemy design. Many Dragon Road platforming sections feature rocket launcher enemies that attempt to force your hand and quicken your pace and decision making while you traverse a bottomless pit. That is classic era level enemy design and placement at its finest.

We can see the groundwork for the evolution of badnik design in the boost formula games. The devs have shown themselves capable of doing so on a small scale, we simply need them to increase the sample size to balance out the robot trash mobs that serve no other purpose but to be destroyed for the spectacle.

 

This is where Forces come in. In order to evolve, the boost formula, we need to see them utilize some of the badniks in different ways in order to change them from all cannon fodder all the time, to a living part of the environment that poses a significant risk. We've seen trashmobs get blown away. But we've also seen a new enemy type that lends us a bit of hope.

 

 

That sucker is clearly designed to chase. He's got rocket launchers on his side too. Dealing with this badnik will evoke an immediate response and force the player to deal with the threat. It reeks of interceptor, but when you get down to it, you don't even need mid-teir super badniks to accomplish this feat. Anyone who's plays Sonic understands the difference in cognition that happens when you come across a Chomper vs when you come across a Slicer or an Asteron. If you don't change course immediately to react to what the latter two are doing, you are going to have a very bad day. Forces needs a healthy mix of standard enemies, mixed in with precision shooters (like buzzbombers) sprinkled in with a few base enemy types that pose a significant threat to your ring count. A well placed Coconuts goes a long way.

I hope they strike that balance in Forces. Its not like the boost formula can't do it. The dev team just seems to get away from what makes a good badnik sometimes. Gotta refocus on what each of them does, the role they play, and where they put them to use. Synergy is key. Place an anti-air badnik next to a bubbles chain. Give Buzzbombers explosive payloads and Kamikaze tactics while you boost at them head on. Let more enemy types MOVE. With a more combat heavy focused custom character, we may well see better enemy conceptual design. Here is hoping that some of that bleeds over into Modern Sonic's stages too.

[Nepenthe]

Sorry for the abruptness, but the Forces and Mania mega threads are being closed for the forseeable future. Click here to find out why. And go off and enjoy E3 in the meantime!