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Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"


Badnik Mechanic

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For me, I'm not really concerned with how "alternate" any gameplay style is right now; I just want them to focus in on making one coherent, polished, and fun gameplay style. And while it's possible to do that while still including more playable characters, that adds more complications (at least if they want to be more than just reskins) that I don't want them to have to deal with when they still haven't nailed down what the series is supposed to be.

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Just because the trailer had darker elements doesn't mean that it is appealing to adventure fans in the slightest.

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I'd think you'd be excessively hardpressed to argue that the dire circumstances present in the trailer aren't all that equatable with the Adventure era. It's not all-encompassing of course, but there is the association.

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I think it will only be Sonic playable, but I'm personally hoping "Join the Resistance" means there will be more than just Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic. I think it would be cool if there was just one unified playstyle but the different Sonics have different stats, and a unique ability or two. So Classic Sonic has the Spin Dash and the Insta-Shield/Elemental Shields. Modern Sonic has the Homing Attack and Boost. And so on and so forth for other Sonics we might get. I also feel like that would be a natural extension of what Generations did.

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I imagine they would  just restrict the segment to a 2D point-of-view anyway, or just do Star Fox-esque rail segments like in SA1. But to do it with  unrestricted 3D? I agree with you; I'd have the Tornado work as your acceleration and movement (with flowing physics because why not; it could make for some pretty awesome dogfighting moments what with stalling tactics and stuff like that), with Sonic acting as an attack along with the SA1 gun/charged missile system.

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39 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

I know I've probably alluded to this in some form before (in fact if I'm not mistaken the last two times were with you too), but I always liked the compromise Sonic 2 offered - you fly a plane that controls exactly like the platforming norm, and moving it around is almost no different to running and jumping as normal. I do kinda wonder how that would work in 3D, especially now that we have the Homing Attack on top of it - breaking away for sky-high homing attack shenanigans and having the Tornado catch you every time sounds pretty fuckin' sick if you ask me.

The closest thing we have are the special stages in Sonic Advance 3. The Tornado is on rails, constantly moving forward while you can move the Tornado in all 8 directions. Pressing a direction moves your character along with the Tornado. Of course you can jump as well. It's actually pretty cool. I'd imagine if they decided to develop this further, the Tornado would just kind of 'zip' forward if you homing attack, always being directly under you.

 

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37 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

or just do Star Fox-esque rail segments like in SA1.

Of course it's on rail segments, that's basically what Boost level design already is! =D

Okay but in all seriousness I'd totally go for the rail option - "running" forward would just make it progress faster, HA-chaining even moreso depending on whether they finally fix that stupid floatiness that's been plauging it ever since its inception. Not that full 3D flying doesn't sound nice, either - it's just been so long since we had a Sonic game that could tolerate any direction other than forwards that I find it much harder to imagine XD

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I hope they start making games thaqt won`t appeal to an "era" of SOinc fans and just to Sonic fans, but I think that`s impossible at this point.

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4 hours ago, Mat.W said:

I hope they start making games thaqt won`t appeal to an "era" of SOinc fans and just to Sonic fans, but I think that`s impossible at this point.

Wasn't that what boost gameplay was for? I mean hell, all the gameplay styles had to be created for the sake of making a Sonic game first rather than appealing to fans of the style. As the gameplay styles did not have specific fan base to cater to before their creation. At that point, its not a matter of appealing to specific era fans. But finding what works best for Sonic and improving on it. Be it an old formula or new. And so far, it looks like boost is the most accepted gameplay style, no matter how much fans bitch about it getting stale. The general public still seems to like it.

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1 hour ago, Sonic The Badass said:

Wasn't that what boost gameplay was for? I mean hell, all the gameplay styles had to be created for the sake of making a Sonic game first rather than appealing to fans of the style. As the gameplay styles did not have specific fan base to cater to before their creation. At that point, its not a matter of appealing to specific era fans. But finding what works best for Sonic and improving on it. Be it an old formula or new. And so far, it looks like boost is the most accepted gameplay style, no matter how much fans bitch about it getting stale. The general public still seems to like it.

Nope. Well, not to that last part, but nope.

Gameplay style changes have more so been done because of an almost needless want to reinvent, with a dash of not remembering/caring what they'd already established. That's in fact the opposite of what you're saying; they've made new styles and gimmicks repeatedly to try to grab new fans and audiences over anything else, without much effort in caring about what constitutes as a "Sonic game".

Granted we've got a well-rounded hit out of that (boost gameplay), but the rest have been misses (Heroes, 06, Secret Rings / Black Knight, Lost World, and all alt gameplay styles from SA1, SA2 and Unleashed), and you can never tell what crazy diversion they're gonna do next, but I digress.

And even with the boost gameplay working and pretty successful, we had another style before it that the series was founded and ran an entire 13 years on (1991 - 2004), which make note was also the most critically acclaimed and successful 13 years of the franchise's life. Should Sonic Team just keep that style segregated from the main series into Mania and classic stuff (even though it was also in the Adventure and Advance games), or should they actually try to do like any other sane and successful franchise and find a way to bring it back to the main franchise and/or compromise it with what's been established in the boost titles?

That's what has everyone kinda upset and uncomfortable. Sega was on top of things with Sonic, Sega goes third party, Sega reinvents Sonic for new audiences repeatedly in haphazard ways without caring about quality or what previous games established, Sonic becomes a laughing stock, Sega gives Sonic an all-new style that is well made but difference in the gameplay hard-divides the fanbase, Sega attempts to reinvent and pull out the gimmicks again at the same time which hurts the image of the brand again, Sega promises to reestablish Sonic's core audience, and then Sega makes a defined line between one Sonic style and the other.

People seem to have all decided to accept keeping their preferred era of the series in their own lanes, and if Sonic 2017 splits the gameplay between 'classic' and 'modern' style again rather than meeting a middle ground, then Sega has too.

In which case, why? Why are we doing this? I mean even if they made it where 2D games played like the classics and 3D games played like the boost, that's not perfect but it's reasonable. But why does it seem like Sega rather wants to split one series into two, with completely different art directions and gameplay styles (and possibly continuities)? 

Once again, that's not confirmed to be the case yet, but it seems mighty likely at this point. Come on Sega, prove me wrong..

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35 minutes ago, Azoo said:

In which case, why? Why are we doing this? I mean even if they made it where 2D games played like the classics and 3D games played like the boost, that's not perfect but it's reasonable. But why does it seem like Sega rather wants to split one series into two, with completely different art directions and gameplay styles (and possibly continuities)? Once again, that's not confirmed to be the case yet, but it seems mighty likely at this point.

I'm not sure if it's that SEGA necessarily intentionally wants to split the series the way they are currently doing. Lately they've been stuck on this 'celebrating the past' thing since Generations, and since it's another anniversary, I guess they still feel this is the best thing they can do at the moment. Mania is great because it's another 2D console sidescrolling game that many people have wanted for the longest time. They just chose to make it classic themed because of the games it's celebrating. Classic Sonic has been brought back for 2017 probably because he has a really positive image that could potentially help give Sonic a good name again after having lost it yet again with Lost World and Rise of Lyric. 

I think SEGA's refusal so go back to a more Adventure-esque style of play (that is, wider, more open areas, rolling, free movement, controls better suited for platforming, Spin Dash) is because the Boost games have been the most recent well received games. Lots of people argue that Sonic has had an identity crisis for a long time, when I don't think it's quite that bad. SA1 (genre roulette aside), SA2, Heroes, Shadow, and 06 all had relatively similar gameplay styles. Heroes is the most different, but I'd argue Heroes is not that much more different to Sonic Adventure than Super Mario Sunshine is to 64.

The whole reason they ditched that way to play is probably because of how terribly 06 was received. I'd say ShtH started it, but ultimately 06 coming right after is what really destroyed them. So my guess is that they just wanted to start anew, throw out everything they had established before, and completely reinvent the wheel, which eventually led to Secret Rings, which founded the modern boost era (with cues from Sonic Rush). Even still, more recently they tried something that more resembled an Adventure type of game with Lost World, it didn't deliver, and I feel that could have broken their confidence even further, leading to potentially outright ditching a more open ended style of play once again, maybe for good this time. I know they went about it all wrong with Lost World, but it was still an attempt nonetheless. 

Don't get me wrong though, I agree with you. I wish they'd go back to what they had established for a good 13 or so years. I do enjoy the boost but I would prefer an Adventure style of gameplay to come around and become Sonic's permanent identity. I just don't think it will happen, well considering everything that's happened. I'm using Adventure as sort of a buzzword for a gameplay style with rolling, open movement, whatever.

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On 8/14/2016 at 1:26 PM, Auto said:

 so they gotta give every play style they come up with a Sonic mask so the critics and journalists don't go even more uppity about how much a game's gonna suck.

They are going to do that anyway, they might as well do anything they want at this point. If the game is 3d the results are the same, I'm not ok with the notion of being affraid of game journalists, particularly because of their weird presence in the industry right now.

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13 minutes ago, Azoo said:

All those games did have the same template.. sort of. Enough to say they're all from the same era, at least.

I guess my point was that they (post SA2) kinda lost the plot on what made the games work. They added extra unnecessary additions like combat, forgot rolling was an important part of the game (if not forgetting it existed altogether outside of the Spindash), neither good physics nor flow were considered a priority in designing the games, et cetera. Slap the rest of the eccentricities and problems those games had on top of it, and yeah they basically flirted with disaster. 

Oh my yes. They did get progressively worse each time though. They've sort of forgotten what made Sonic- well, Sonic either way. I say it's a lose lose situation we had on our hands. Maybe this sounds bad, but perhaps it was a good thing that all this happened. It allowed SEGA to start over and give them a chance to get their shit together.

Imagine a world where they continued on and developed even further what 06 had established. Where would Sonic be now? Sonic Mania certainly wouldn't exist. We'd probably have Nazo Unleashed levels of quality coming from Sonic Team, death, fusion and all :P 

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Just because the trailer showed a burning city does not mean that the tone of the game will be anything like an Adventure game.  

So far this just goes to show how SEGA does not understand the adventure fans.

The very presence of "Classic" Sonic is a slap in the face right off of the bat. The cartoony generations style robots just make matters worse. The start of the trailer even states that this game is headed by the colors/generations team.

Yep I am pretty sure anouther shitty pontaf style game with the entire cast sidelined is guaranteed at this point.

Their refusal to acknowledge Modern Sonic and Adventure Sonic as separate entities is the heart of the problem. Because everyone under the sun has something right now except the adventure fans. We are getting a Boom game, a Boost game, a friggin lego game, and even anouther Classic game. But absouutely nothing for the Adventure fans because Sega thinks that modern Sonic and Classic Sonic can please everyone. 

 

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5 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

Their refusal to acknowledge Modern Sonic and Adventure Sonic as separate entities is the heart of the problem.

But isn't the Adventure series part of Modern Sonic? I mean sure, Colors and the games onward from that certainly had a very different feel compared to games like SA2 and the like but it's still Modern Sonic.

 

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12 hours ago, Azoo said:

Nope. Well, not to that last part, but nope.

Gameplay style changes have more so been done because of an almost needless want to reinvent, with a dash of not remembering/caring what they'd already established. That's in fact the opposite of what you're saying; they've made new styles and gimmicks repeatedly to try to grab new fans and audiences over anything else, without much effort in caring about what constitutes as a "Sonic game".

I agree with what your saying but at the same time think that the back to back failures of Shadow The Hedgehog and Sonic 06 caused them to abandon Adventure style game play. And considering how quality dropped after SA2 they probably forgot how to make that type of game, and with each new release it showed more and more. I think that was a big part of them wanting to reinvent Sonic again.

8 hours ago, Kabalni said:

But isn't the Adventure series part of Modern Sonic? I mean sure, Colors and the games onward from that certainly had a very different feel compared to games like SA2 and the like but it's still Modern Sonic.

 

I always thought Modern Sonic started with his redesign, so basically 1998 - present. I don't think Sega is neglecting the Adventure fans, rather, too afraid to try to mess with it again. It's risky, and they currently have a formula that works.

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1 hour ago, Kabalni said:

But isn't the Adventure series part of Modern Sonic? I mean sure, Colors and the games onward from that certainly had a very different feel compared to games like SA2 and the like but it's still Modern Sonic.

 

That depends entirely on how you define "Modern Sonic". If a Modern Sonic game is simply one that features the Modern green eyed design then yes, the Adventure games are Modern Sonic games. However, as you said the games from Colors onwards have a radically different style from Adventure-Black Knight. Furthermore Unleashed established a completely different gameplay style from the one used from Adventure-'06. 

As an Adventure fan myself I think the distinction is very important. I love the Adventure games, in fact SA2 is one of my top 3 favorite games ever! At the same time though I don't really care about the boost gameplay and I utterly deplore the style of games like Colors and Lost World. I'm far from being the only one who feels that way either.

From that perspective it makes perfect sense why the distinction exists. At some point between '06 and Colors the games changed on a fundamental level. Enough to give rise to two distinct subgroups who like the games either before or after the change and hate the others. At that point considering the games and their respective fan groups to be one-in-the-same no longer makes sense, and trying to declare them the same based on something as superficial as a shared character design is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

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I gotta be honest: my standards aren't very strict or specific. Make Sonic feel fast, powerful, and easy to handle. Make levels big, varied, and satisfying to master. Keep needless fat from being a mandatory part of the experience. The only games that have really done all of this are Sonic 3&K, Sonic Colors, and Sonic Generations.

It's hardly unreasonable hold this standard, but to expect it? I'll wait for some solid details. 

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I just hope the game is fun and polished.

I don't get why people fret over which style is used or if there is a new one or whatever. What matters is if it manages to do what it intends on it's own merits. That's generally how I look at any game, really, and is why I actually enjoy stuff like the Werehog and Medal collecting in Unleashed (i.e I don't tell myself "I don't want to play a solid beat-em-up in a SONIC game", and rather think "oh, well it's not what I normally expect from Sonic but it's still fun on it's own merits and there is plenty of regular Sonic gameplay anyway, so this is like a nice bonus"). Unleashed, Colours, and Generations all achieved this, and I feel the core 3D gameplay from Lost World did too. Say what you will about preferring the Adventure style or whatever, but the "Unleashed trilogy" are a much more polished and user friendly set of games than the Adventure games, reason being that you don't have to deal with finicky controls (well, unless you play Colours with the Wii Remote or something, but that's on you), technical hiccups, and an over-abundance of different play-styles. And I say that as someone who likes the original Sonic Adventure more than Colours.

Of course, good use of the characters and an engaging, adventurous story/setting is also a big thing I like, but it's not a requirement for the game to be fun to play.

I generally like all three "styles" of Sonic because I fundamentally feel they are similar enough to still be "Sonic" to me (same with Lost World's core 3D style but it didn't get a chance to really shine yet). They have speed. They all have platforming. They all have exploration. They all have a use of physics on the characters. They all have relatively simple controls (the Unleashed trilogy has a complex control scheme at first glance but it's subverted by how natural and intuitive the button placements are, which is a plus compared to the overly-simple "map everything to an action button" scheme of the Adventure games). Sonic's speed is generally used as a super power in some way in each style, for more than just "he can run fast". And they all have different gimmicks in different levels.

Sure, these elements apply to varying degrees in each style, or are harder to implement in one over the other. But they are prominent enough in each style to the point where it still feels like "Sonic" to me. Which is why I find it ironic that people say "Sonic should be more like Mario/should have handled his jump to 3D like Mario". Mario games have probably went under more drastic changes than Sonic has, especially when looking at the initial jump to 3D. The 2D Mario games were super simple in terms of controls, with just your jump, your attack button, and the spin button in Super Mario World. But you make the jump to 3D and all of a sudden, Mario has a bunch of different kinds of jumps and flips, each with their own application, he can dive, he can has multiple punch and kick moves, he has a ground pound, and he has a full-on control scheme for swimming with all of it's own actions. Not only that, but they changed the entire foundation of progression. The 2D Mario games were just simple, linear levels that were fairly quick for the average player, and other than SMB3 and Super Mario World, there wasn't much incentive to explore, nor was there much to explore (and even in those latter two games, it was mostly just secret exit rooms and the like). And you also had a world map for replaying levels or having a choice between two levels at points in order to progress. Then Mario makes the jump to 3D, and suddenly progression is comparable to Metroid or something. You have to explore these big, open worlds to find Power Stars to climb higher and higher up the castle, which ITSELF is packed with secrets to find.

With Sonic, in the 2D games on the Genesis, you could run, jump, roll, and spin-dash with Sonic, as well as the shield powers in S3&K. And the Peel-Out in Sonic CD. In Sonic Adventure, you could run, jump, roll, spin-dash, jump cancel, jump dash, and Homing Attack. You also had a context sensitive action button but it's not that essential. As you can see, they barely changed Sonic's moveset going into Adventure, he only got two or three new abilities really (and the jump dash and Homing Attack had both existed in the past as power-ups anyway). And the form of progression was mostly the same. You still went to the end of the level like before, but you also had an open hub world to link these levels together, basically being the 3D equivalent to a world map. Even then, you still have to go to levels in a specific order so it's still familiar, you always have to go in a specific direction to go the next level.

Honestly, I see just as much divide in the Mario fandom these days as the Sonic fandom, especially in the wake of 3D World (one of my favourite games personally but plenty aren't fond of it), which was a game that tried to fuse the old 2D Mario gameplay with the newer 3D gameplay. It's no different than what Sonic Team had been doing from Unleashed to Generations.

So yeah, Mario is the last franchise to "take notes" from if you want consistency, it shook itself up just as much as Sonic did, even having three core gameplay styles, like Sonic.

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3 hours ago, reflection_of said:

Just because the trailer showed a burning city does not mean that the tone of the game will be anything like an Adventure game.  

So far this just goes to show how SEGA does not understand the adventure fans.

The very presence of "Classic" Sonic is a slap in the face right off of the bat. The cartoony generations style robots just make matters worse. The start of the trailer even states that this game is headed by the colors/generations team.

Yep I am pretty sure anouther shitty pontaf style game with the entire cast sidelined is guaranteed at this point.

Their refusal to acknowledge Modern Sonic and Adventure Sonic as separate entities is the heart of the problem. Because everyone under the sun has something right now except the adventure fans. We are getting a Boom game, a Boost game, a friggin lego game, and even anouther Classic game. But absouutely nothing for the Adventure fans because Sega thinks that modern Sonic and Classic Sonic can please everyone. 

 

Personally don't think this whole situation should ever become one where Sega has to please each and every segment of the Sonic fanbase, because god forbid one segment doesn't get what they want. The fact that SEGA are doing this right now with the seperation of Sonic into 3 identities (classic, modern and boom) I think is inconceivably reprehensible. Just deepening the cracks in the fanbase which achieves nothing.

Why would having yet another fucking Sonic with yet another type of gameplay be good? Why can't Sonic Team just make a game as best they can without worrying about pleasing this fan, or that fan. Maybe it will result in some competently made games, but their similarities will ultimately be superficial without actually capturing their essence (a la Classic Sonic from Gens), ultimately pleasing nobody.

 

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