Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Cyrus]

A technical speed running strat isn't really the same as pushing down to go faster on a casual run

[Nepenthe]

The slide is not 1:1 with the roll. The impact of slopes upon it is non-existent and subsequently you can't go backwards with it due to waning momentum or even controlling it. The only thing it does that's the same as rolling is offer immunity to some enemies and objects in the front...which the boost also does, but the boost isn't reskinned rolling either.

[ChikoLad]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

The Boost mode in Advance 2 doesn't make you invincible, it's just visual flare. But you're probably right about this one.

 

Short hopping keeps your speed, whereas a full jump slows you down. Entirely for those speed bumps and jumping small gaps. This wasn't in previous games as ever short jumps still slow you down.

 

Slide doesn't function the same as rolling. It used to go under gaps...which you never needed to roll for in previous games. If you try to use it like rolling...down slopes, you'll just waste time slowing down. There was sliding in the 2006 game though.

 

The stomp's utilization for precision jumps is speed-running tactics only. It's intended purpose is simply to stomp on switches and break through floors, something you never needed to do before. The Bounce was intended for reaching higher platforms.

Except short hopping does still slow you down a bit in the Unleashed trilogy, just not as much as a full jump. Just like past games.

There's obviously slight differences between the slide and roll by virtue of differing physics engines, but the slide still has all of the same functions as the roll - it speeds you up quite a bit on a slope (useful for if you don't have boost energy, which can happen quite a bit in early Unleashed depending on how you play the game), you go under tight spaces (which does happen automatically in Colours and Generations, albeit slowed down), and you can attack enemies with it. It's an evolution of the same concept, which was the term we were using from the beginning here.

No, the stomp being utilitsed for precise jumps is not a speed-running tactic only (and even if it was, I don't see how that would change the point - rolling is mainly a speed-running trick in the Classics, you can beat Sonic 1 without ever rolling). There are even occasions in entrance stages in Unleashed where you are expected to use the stomp to land on something after being launched. The bounce was used for reaching higher platforms, but that was a secondary function of the move. The stomp is very clearly of the same blood.

11 minutes ago, Auto said:

A technical speed running strat isn't really the same as pushing down to go faster on a casual run

You asked for something game breaking and I gave it to you.

And you can still do the latter anyway, as I said before.

9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The slide is not 1:1 with the roll. The impact of slopes upon it is non-existent and subsequently you can't go backwards with it due to waning momentum. The only thing it does that's the same as rolling is offer immunity to some enemies in the front...which the boost also does, but the boost isn't reskinned rolling either.

Define "non-existant".

I find whenever I slide between two big slopes from a small run forward, I go up and down until I eventually stop, just like rolling in the Classics.

[Darinian]

2 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

I find whenever I slide between two big slopes from a small run forward, I go up and down until I eventually stop, just like rolling in the Classics.

But unlike Unleashed and generations rolling is 

1.faster

2.stops you from changing direction if you jumped out of it

3.speed up ridiculously if you went down some hills/loops

[azoo]

In the classic games, if you roll between two big slopes, you build up speed and eventually rocket off one side or the other, you bean. 

Sliding loses speed immediately upon contact with a flat surface, and decelerates sharply thanks to high traction. It works just as it should, a slide. The roll moves you like a ball; you coast along the ground until an eventual (not sudden!) slowdown, and you use that + moving down slopes to reach ludicrous speeds.

They both pull you close to the ground and can hit enemies, sure. But rolling and sliding are completely different otherwise, to the point where its definitely a valid argument to ask why sliding exists when rolling is such a big part of the series gameplay and does everything else the slide does but so much better.

[Nepenthe]

5 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Define "non-existant".

I find whenever I slide between two big slopes from a small run forward, I go up and down until I eventually stop, just like rolling in the Classics.

Do you ever go backwards due to gravity?

[ChikoLad]

Just now, Flare Sakitha Sol said:

But unlike Unleashed and generations rolling is 

1.faster

2.stops you from changing direction if you jumped out of it

3.speed up ridiculously if you went down some hills/loops

Sliding speeds you up ridiculously too down a large slope. Just like rolling in the old games. Sometimes it's good to slide down slopes after a boost because boosting speed is capped, while sliding down a slope pushes you beyond it a bit.

Also I don't get what you mean by 2. You can still change direction jumping out of a roll if you have enough leg room for it, same as with the slide.

[Blacklightning]

7 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Define "non-existant".

Closer to the latter than the former. Sliding does gain speed downhill, but nowhere near enough to do anything crazy or fun with, so it makes absolutely zero sense to throw the two under one label as if it's a compromise anybody actually wants.

[Darinian]

13 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

Also I don't get what you mean by 2

In the classics if you spindash and then jump you can NOT change direction. If you meant "run, roll, jump" then nvm

[ChikoLad]

Just now, Blacklightning said:

Closer to the latter than the former. Sliding does gain speed downhill, but nowhere near enough to do anything crazy or fun with, so it makes absolutely zero sense to throw the two under one label as if it's a compromise anybody actually wants.

I didn't see any sliding in that video.

3 minutes ago, Azoo said:

In the classic games, if you roll between two big slopes, you build up speed and eventually rocket off one side or the other, you bean. 

Sliding loses speed immediately upon contact with a flat surface, and decelerates sharply thanks to high traction. It works just as it should, a slide. The roll moves you like a ball; you coast along the ground until an eventual (not sudden!) slowdown, and you use that + moving down slopes to reach ludicrous speeds.

 

No, you only continuously gain speed and shoot off if you start rolling between the two slopes with enough initial speed. It doesn't work from a slow walk. Again, like the slide.

And sliding does not lose speed immediately upon contact with a flat surface, it only does that if you pull back on the control stick, just like a roll.

[StaticMania]

Just now, ChikoLad said:

Except short hopping does still slow you down a bit in the Unleashed trilogy, just not as much as a full jump. Just like past games.

 

No, the stomp being utilitsed for precise jumps is not a speed-running tactic only (and even if it was, I don't see how that would change the point - rolling is mainly a speed-running trick in the Classics, you can beat Sonic 1 without ever rolling). There are even occasions in entrance stages in Unleashed where you are expected to use the stomp to land on something after being launched. The bounce was used for reaching higher platforms, but that was a secondary function of the move. The stomp is very clearly of the same blood.

Of course it still slows you down, it's clearly not as much as a full jump so as you don't break your flow. Not like past games, even if you short jump in past games you go back to Sonic's natural ground speed...or slower in the case of anything before Unleashed.

 

You never need to use the stomp to make precise jumps unless you're speed running, because all the platforming in Unleashed, Colours, and Generations is super simple and basic. You could only put yourself in situations where you need to make precise jumps. Bouncing was primarily used for reaching higher platforms because that's how it was introduced to the player, you could not proceed until you got it because the next platform was too high. You never needed to make precise jumps with this because the levels weren't designed with mandatory precision platforming.

[Blacklightning]

9 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

I didn't see any sliding in that video.

It's Generations - the standard roll and the slide work on the exact same mechanics. There's a pretty good reason there's no halfpipes in the modern levels - because it would quickly demonstate that the physics don't actually work properly.

9 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

No, you only continuously gain speed and shoot off if you start rolling between the two slopes with enough initial speed. It doesn't work from a slow walk. Again, like the slide.

You... did watch the video I just linked, right? Most of those rolls were initiated from a near-standstill.

[Cyrus]

3 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

You asked for something game breaking and I gave it to you.

There are cases where you can almost go off screen and even clip through terrain just by rolling in the classic games. Rolling in Chemical Plant is a good example of this. The technique you showed isn't in intended function like the spin dash or rolling.

[Adamabba]

Using a roll to go down a hill in the is much more effective than using the slide to do the same thing. I'm not sure if sliding while boosting down a hill is any faster, but if it is, it's a very small difference and you can't utilize it the same way you would in the classic games, where you could massively increase speed, or fly off high in the sky.

[ChikoLad]

Just now, StaticMania said:

Of course it still slows you down, it's clearly not as much as a full jump so as you don't break your flow. Not like past games, even if you short jump in past games you go back to Sonic's natural ground speed...or slower in the case of anything before Unleashed.

 

You never need to use the stomp to make precise jumps unless you're speed running, because all the platforming in Unleashed, Colours, and Generations is super simple and basic. You could only put yourself in situations where you need to make precise jumps. Bouncing was primarily used for reaching higher platforms because that's how it was introduced to the player, you could not proceed until you got it because the next platform was too high. You never needed to make precise jumps with this because the levels weren't designed with mandatory precision platforming.

This is literally impossible without the stomp.

The game has MULTIPLE moments like this, where you are expected to stomp after being launched, so you can land somewhere. Usually with a trail of rings.

There's also many moments where you have to launch somewhere and stomp onto a rail to get a shortcut or secret, like this:

I seriously am doubting you have clear memory of how Unleashed's mechanics work or how they were utilised.

5 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

It's Generations - the standard roll and the slide work on the exact same mechanics. There's a pretty good reason there's no halfpipes in the modern levels - because it would quickly demonstate that the physics don't actually work properly.

You... did watch the video I just linked, right? Most of those rolls were initiated from a near-standstill.

Classic Sonic's roll and Modern Sonic's slide DON'T work the same in Generations. The two characters have completely different physics variables on everything. The slide is actually more potent on slopes than Classic Sonic's roll in Generations.

And the slide in Generations isn't even the same as in Unleashed and Colours either, which also have uniquely programmed physics. Just like with the Classics and how the roll is a bit different between games.

Also, I was talking about standing in between a halfpipe. You need a bit of speed to go from the bottom of one, to the top, using just rolls. You can't do it from near stand-still.

2 minutes ago, Adamabba said:

Using a roll to go down a hill in the is much more effective than using the slide to do the same thing. I'm not sure if sliding while boosting down a hill is any faster, but if it is, it's a very small difference and you can't utilize it the same way you would in the classic games, where you could massively increase speed, or fly off high in the sky.

Sliding is extremely useful on slopes, especially in Unleashed, because Boost speed is capped to 1000 SPD. You can go beyond that with sliding down a slope at the right time, and even more so if you stomp onto a slope and into a slide.

[azoo]

1 minute ago, ChikoLad said:

No, you only continuously gain speed and shoot off if you start rolling between the two slopes with enough initial speed. It doesn't work from a slow walk. Again, like the slide.

Yes it does.

Go into a halfpipe in a classic Sonic game and roll around. Sonic's speed will pull back and then multiply in the opposite direction depending on either the horizontal OR vertical speed. Sonic from a walk will fall down the slope, you roll down it and pick up speed from that plus contact with the slope, you go farther up one side, you fall down and do it repeatedly until you're scaling the half pipe at blistering speeds.

Now try the same with the slide. The slide will attempt the same thing, but it decelerates at an alarming rate and caps at a low speed, making it impossible to pull off properly. Combine with how slowly it accels down slopes as is and, well yeah. Its useless.

And sliding does not lose speed immediately upon contact with a flat surface, it only does that if you pull back on the control stick, just like a roll.

Believe me, I've analyzed this enough to know thats not the case.

Even in aforementioned mods of Generations that replace the slide animation with the roll (like Lobotomy's "Fixing Generations FOREVER" mod), he makes note in the dev videos about it that he tried to make the slide feel more like the roll by fixing many of the problems I mentioned but couldn't really get it there.

So yeah, I don't even know why this is an argument. They're completely different moves. This is like saying the boost is the same as the spinda--

Wait, did we really say that too? Dang, wow. I mean its not even about preference for one or the other, thats just completely incorrect.

Tl;dr - same basic functions != same moves. That's like saying the instashield and homing attack are the same move since they both help hit enemies. And if someone says "but those work completely differently!", well yeah, but that hasn't stopped us before so why now?

See what I'm saying?

 

[Blacklightning]

...is this a bad time to mention that Azoo made Sonic Freerunner?

Because when it comes to the point that you're arguing the intricacies of genesis physics with a guy who made a friggin' fangame out of them, I'd like to think he has some qualifications on the subject. Just putting it out there. >_>

[ChikoLad]

1 minute ago, Azoo said:

Yes it does.

Go into a halfpipe in a classic Sonic game and roll around. Sonic's speed will pull back and then multiply in the opposite direction depending on either the horizontal OR vertical speed. Sonic from a walk will fall down the slope, you roll down it and pick up speed from that plus contact with the slope, you go farther up one side, you fall down and do it repeatedly until you're scaling the half pipe at blistering speeds.

Now try the same with the slide. The slide will attempt the same thing, but it decelerates at an alarming rate and caps at a low speed, making it impossible to pull off properly. Combine with how slowly it accels down slopes as is and, well yeah. Its useless.

 

 

Believe me, I've analyzed this enough to know thats not the case.

Even in aforementioned mods of Generations that replace the slide animation with the roll (like Lobotomy's "Fixing Generations FOREVER" mod), he makes note in the dev videos about it that he tried to make the slide feel more like the roll by fixing many of the problems I mentioned but couldn't really get it there.

So yeah, I don't even know why this is an argument. They're completely different moves. This is like saying the boost is the same as the spinda--

Wait, did we really say that too? Dang, wow. I mean its not even about preference for one or the other, thats just completely incorrect.

Tl;dr - same basic functions != same moves. That's like saying the instashield and homing attack are the same move since they both help hit enemies. And if someone says "but those work completely differently!", well yeah, but that hasn't stopped us before so why now?

See what I'm saying?

 

If you fall from the top of the half pipe then of course you get loads of speed, but not if you walk from a stand still from the middle. If you do that and try to roll as soon as you hit the slope, you don't climb up because the middle is generally too wide to pick up enough speed from such a tiny roll. You DO need a bit of a running start.

And while the Generations slide is a bit more rigid than the Unleashed one, Unleashed is where the move debuted and it functioned more like the roll there. And if we are gonna use modder comments here, the creators of the Unleashed Project have mentioned they feel their mod does not replace the real Unleashed because of the difference in physics between the two games, with Unleashed having more free-flowing physics, while Generations has more rigid and tight control.

Also, at no point did I say the boost is the same as the spin dash, I said it was an evolution of the same concept (i.e a move that allows instant gratification of speed from a stand still). This was part of the larger point I initially made, where I don't feel that Sonic games have changed as drastically as people like to claim. Even throughout all of these different flavours of Sonic, all of the same nuts and bolts are still there, they are just put together differently.

[Darinian]

Just now, ChikoLad said:

If you fall from the top of the half pipe then of course you get loads of speed, but not if you walk from a stand still from the middle. If you do that and try to roll as soon as you hit the slope, you don't climb up because the middle is generally too wide to pick up enough speed from such a tiny roll. You DO need a bit of a running start.

And while the Generations slide is a bit more rigid than the Unleashed one, Unleashed is where the move debuted and it functioned more like the roll there. And if we are gonna use modder comments here, the creators of the Unleashed Project have mentioned they feel their mod does not replace the real Unleashed because of the difference in physics between the two games, with Unleashed having more free-flowing physics, while Generations has more rigid and tight control.

Also, at no point did I say the boost is the same as the spin dash, I said it was an evolution of the same concept (i.e a move that allows instant gratification of speed from a stand still). This was part of the larger point I initially made, where I don't feel that Sonic games have changed as drastically as people like to claim. Even throughout all of these different flavours of Sonic, all of the same nuts and bolts are still there, they are just put together differently.

No kidding rolling wouldn't work in the middle of a halfpipe and rolling as soon as it starts to slope, even sliding wouldn't do that.

[MegasonicZX]

6 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

...is this a bad time to mention that Azoo made Sonic Freerunner?

Because when it comes to the point that you're arguing the intricacies of genesis physics with a guy who made a friggin' fangame out of them, I'd like to think he has some qualifications on the subject. Just putting it out there. >_>

Off-topic I know but jesus azoo why don't you continue working on this? With some proper levels this could be a treat to play (I still remember when this was initially shown off here and I thought it was pretty cool then too).

 

[ChikoLad]

17 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

...is this a bad time to mention that Azoo made Sonic Freerunner?

Because when it comes to the point that you're arguing the intricacies of genesis physics with a guy who made a friggin' fangame out of them, I'd like to think he has some qualifications on the subject. Just putting it out there. >_>

We resorting to butt kissing now?

While I haven't made a fan-game from scratch myself, I have heavily messed around with Sonic GDK and it's physics engine, and even made a college project using it. Furthermore, this discussion is not solely about the Classics, but also about Modern games like Unleashed (which GDK can ALSO replicate the feel of). And if we are gonna talk "qualifications", I have all of the achievements in Unleashed on Xbox 360, and am currently playing through the PS3 version with the aim of getting all the trophies and then some, recently wrote an in-depth article about Unleashed that was initially going to be a short blurb but I was asked to make a full article out of it because the owner of the site was so impressed with it, and said article has been seen and liked by someone at SEGA (though I won't say who).

So I figure I also know what I'm talking about. That being said, it's pretty low to attempt to invalidate someone else's thoughts by saying "he knows better than you" when you can't think of legitimate response. People weren't lying when they said SSMB wasn't a welcoming place...all the better I don't post much, then.

[Darinian]

2 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

We resorting to butt kissing now?

While I haven't made a fan-game from scratch myself, I have heavily messed around with Sonic GDK and it's physics engine, and even made a college project using it. Furthermore, this discussion is not solely about the Classics, but also about Modern games like Unleashed (which GDK can ALSO replicate the feel of). And if we are gonna talk "qualifications", I have all of the achievements in Unleashed on Xbox 360, and am currently playing through the PS3 version with the aim of getting all the trophies and then some, recently wrote an in-depth article about Unleashed that was initially going to be a short blurb but I was asked to make a full article out of it because the owner of the site was so impressed with it, and said article has been seen and liked by someone at SEGA (though I won't say who).

So I figure I also know what I'm talking about. That being said, it's pretty low to attempt to invalidate someone else's thoughts by saying "he knows better than you". People weren't lying when they said SSMB wasn't a welcoming place...all the better I don't post much, then.

Ow, and I was just trying to make a dent in the argument. SSMB (all of it)didn't need to get with that train

Edited August 16, 2016 by Flare Sakitha Sol
My phone autocorrected dent

[Tara]

13 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

We resorting to butt kissing now?

Yeah, this comment is hardly necessary.  None of this please.

 

14 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

So I figure I also know what I'm talking about. That being said, it's pretty low to attempt to invalidate someone else's thoughts by saying "he knows better than you" when you can't think of legitimate response. People weren't lying when they said SSMB wasn't a welcoming place...all the better I don't post much, then.

And irony of ironies.

 

So while I'm calling otu this post specifically, I'm asking everyone to calm down and keep the conversation civil.  This topic is getting a tad ridic.

[azoo]

Okay, I just got back from work (was posting while nothing was happening lol), and this got a little ugly. Let's back up a few paces.

3 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

...is this a bad time to mention that Azoo made Sonic Freerunner?

Because when it comes to the point that you're arguing the intricacies of genesis physics with a guy who made a friggin' fangame out of them, I'd like to think he has some qualifications on the subject. Just putting it out there. >_>

I'm flattered and appreciate it BL, but I don't think that's all too called for. First of all, I wasn't the sole person behind that nor was I the programmer (though I was lead game designer / beta tester / etc... make note I did not design that level either, that's a test stage in BlitzSonic). Just setting that straight. lol

SECOND and more importantly, I don't think this should really cancel out ChikoLad's argument by any means. As they've shown, they're more than qualified to talk about stuff from the modern gameplay perspective, as they know their way around Unleashed and know it's mechanics pretty well.

That doesn't mean I'm calling it "agree to disagree" just yet though.

3 hours ago, ChikoLad said:

Sliding is extremely useful on slopes, especially in Unleashed, because Boost speed is capped to 1000 SPD. You can go beyond that with sliding down a slope at the right time, and even more so if you stomp onto a slope and into a slide.

The big thing that I can say to stop you right there is that I too know of this.

It's part of the "M-speed/D-speed/whatever you wanna call it" mechanic exploit, a whole metagame to Unleashed where you can go far beyond the speeds the game intended by using moves in EXTREMELY specific ways and exact rapid-fire inputs. I've done it too, in fact I have played Unleashed up and down as well (and I will admit sliding is a bit looser in Unleashed than it is in Generations, so props for that).

And if you actually weren't referring to speed exploits, then still hear me out, because it applies either way.

The big difference here is that outside of the meta game, sliding isn't really very effective for anything that isn't "go under this tight space". A good example of comparison is that one area from Windmill Isle Act 2, where in a 2D section there's a hill, a loop, and then a small ramp. Sliding down, while the ascent may be moderately quick, is pretty sluggish instantly upon contact with the upward curve of the loop, and may actually take a few tries to pass (possibly even requiring the aforementioned stomp-slide thing to aid you) since sliding decels so quickly, and in the end it does basically nothing and essentially is a waste of time trying to pull off, as the ramp immediately slows your ascent and you don't go very high. Sliding here feels this way because the game wants you to boost there instead, as boosting is the game's way of going fast and the slide is for quick "duck!" sections.

Compare to Emerald Hill Act 2 in Sonic 2, where a higher route also leads to a downhill area, a loop, and then a spiral.  Roll there, and Sonic will quickly build up down those slopes, hurling through the loops (which on the comedown speed him up dramatically), and if met with anything to ramp him he'd be getting major airtime. Add in where Sonic may have been already at a brisk pace beforehand, and these results would be even faster.. much faster..

And while you can argue that you can get sliding to those speeds too through exploits, once again, that's all part of manipulating the game to bend to your whim. It's not quite as easy as "know where to roll and press down", just as it isn't as easy as "hold X when you have enough boost energy". It's about learning to get a move to work a way it shouldn't, which is to say far from representative of what it's supposed to do (and what most average players can/will use it for).

That's why rolling is seen as a different (and to most in here, an all around better) move: both casual players and Sonic pros can use it to their advantage with the level design. It coasts along the ground smoothly, it picks up speed ridiculously fast down slopes, and when in motion can feel like moving a high speed pinball. Those are it's redeeming qualities that put it far beyond being "identical to the slide". And if it were identical, then I wouldn't be arguing here!

Also.

I do not disagree that, like you, I'd want to still see modern Sonic elements continue to be used. I love drifting and quick-stepping, because (like rolling) the game will reward you with a sense of flow for knowing where and when to use it. And maybe a boost-esque move does work better than a Spindash would in 3D, particularly because long stretches of flat land are much more fun to blast across than having to stop, charge, aim, and shoot repeatedly. And the stomp, just as it gives sliding a burst of speed if used right, could do wonders for rolling, especially in 3D spaces!

But that's what I'm getting at. I'm talking in the thought that they should blend these ideas together, find some middle grounds, make some compromises. Sonic shouldn't be two completely different styles, it should be trying to achieve as much unity with itself (and thus it's fanbase) as it can. Does that mean I'm considering a gameplay style that takes some away from fans who want more boost games? Sure, but I also personally would want a comeback of the SA1/SA2 gameplay verbatim (or a 'classic in 3D' game as my fangame shows), and my statements don't really support that either.

I'm just talking off the top of my head with this and tbh I've been typing way too much in my posts lately lol. This is what happens when I don't post for about a week.

[Blacklightning]

7 minutes ago, Azoo said:

SECOND and more importantly, I don't think this should really cancel out ChikoLad's argument by any means.

This wasn't my intention, I should clarify - you'd already said everything I'd intended to say by that stage (and for that matter still are) and only intended to lend credence, not to shut down discussion entirely. If you think that's misguided well... honestly, that's a fair assumption. I was already tired of repeating myself so my investment here isn't what it was. I think I'll just leave it to you from here. >w<;