Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[SonicFreak94]

4 hours ago, Scar said:

Personally don't think this whole situation should ever become one where Sega has to please each and every segment of the Sonic fanbase, because god forbid one segment doesn't get what they want. The fact that SEGA are doing this right now with the seperation of Sonic into 3 identities (classic, modern and boom) I think is inconceivably reprehensible. Just deepening the cracks in the fanbase which achieves nothing.

Why would having yet another fucking Sonic with yet another type of gameplay be good? Why can't Sonic Team just make a game as best they can without worrying about pleasing this fan, or that fan. Maybe it will result in some competently made games, but their similarities will ultimately be superficial without actually capturing their essence (a la Classic Sonic from Gens), ultimately pleasing nobody.

 

I am not saying that sega has to please everyone. I am just exasperated that they are litterally pleasing everyone EXCEPT the adventure fans, who haven't had a single bone this entire decade.

[Nepenthe]

I'm an Adventure fan and I'm pretty pleased with everything in the trailer except Classic Sonic, and I was pretty pleased with Unleashed which was basically another Adventure game.

[Blacklightning]

You know actually speaking of that, what are Adventure fans after exactly? Thematically they're not much different from the boost games, mechanically speaking the boost games only have one extra move and slightly looser handling... I'm legit curious what people see in it because I'm sure there's something I'm neglecting to consider here.

[LoseR]

8 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

You know actually speaking of that, what are Adventure fans after exactly? Thematically they're not much different from the boost games, mechanically speaking the boost games only have one extra move and slightly looser handling... I'm legit curious what people see in it because I'm sure there's something I'm neglecting to consider here.

All we want is explorative gameplay where the player has good control, a spindash, and good rolling physics. Basically the same thing as what everyone else wants.

To be more specific though, Adventure fans (myself included) don't hate the Boost and more recent gameplay, we just feel like most of the mechanics implemented are really just to help Sonic cover up the apparent control issues of the recent games. Boosting is fine, but it'd be nice if you had better rotational control. Drifting is there to let Sonic change his direction quickly, especially mid-boost. Quickstepping is there to let Sonic quickly shift his "horizontal" position in relation to the current forward direction, which I guess is okay. Sliding feels unnecessary because in the Adventure and Genesis games Sonic could use his roll to go faster downhill and slip under objects.

The thing we want the most is a game where the player presses the stick in a direction and Sonic quickly, but not instantly, veers off to head in that direction. He doesn't change directions instantly, nor does he feel like a car. His ability to change direction is natural, but still depends on his speed. That's the BIGGEST mark of an "Adventure" game.

At least, this is what I want, being an Adventure fan. Can't really speak for everyone though haha.

There's also lots of other tweaks that could be made but those aren't super important.

[azoo]

It's hard to say what an 'Adventure' fan is, considering that can mean a multitude of things.

After all, the SA games play like classic games in 3D but with other playable characters/playstyles and showcase more serious stories, but even their tone and art direction differ wildly between the two. And Heroes, Shadow and 06 (all counting in that era) are polarizingly different entries that resemble the SA games just as much as they don't. 

The most we can say these games share are 3D gameplay, the homing attack, the light dash, rail grinding (for all except SA1), Crush 40 music blaring in the background in at least one way or another, and a humblingly large cast of characters. But since none of those elements are mutually exclusive to this era (except Crush 40 I guess), what really constitutes as THE Adventure vibe?

Everybody for that reason seems to have a different opinion. Some simply may just want other characters and bigger narratives again, and some may want a return of the more dark, dramatic and serious stories and photo-realistic art styles. Some people may want a game that feels and plays like SA1 or SA2 did again, and some may want combat or weapons or action sequences to make a comeback. Some people may want one gameplay style to return, some may want all of them. 

I mean I'd definitely say I'm an Adventure fan, as I adore the SA games. Sonic feels very satisfying to control in both games, the aesthetics/music of the first game are incredible, I love the stories both games give and the interactions the characters have in each plot, SA2's grinding gives me life, and Chao Gardens are my jam. But being an Adventure fan to me could be something completely different to the next person, since there ain't nothing I like about Heroes - 06!

[Nepenthe]

Ehh. Thematically I would say only Unleashed is somewhat reminiscent of the Adventure era, featuring a story with omnipresent stakes, a tone that takes things at face value versus constantly lampooning itself and utilizing comedy, and at least one underlying motif or theme that underscores the whole thing. But even with this, Unleashed kinda drops the ball with a naff second act of "restore the temples without interference" that became a bad habit of Colors and Gens' stories where there's no real episodic conflict to carry things along in an interesting way towards the climax (Eggman isn't trying to stop you/destroying or taking things, rivals aren't getting in your way, you aren't sidetracked with mystery or misfortune like getting separated, etc.) Colors and Gens are farther to the end of the spectrum- they're way too breezy to bother caring about exciting plotting or emotional variance, nor are their narratives underpinned with any kind of theme like friendship or forgiveness or vengeance or something. They're lackadaisical excuse plots that focus instead on cartoony characterization and ultimately could've been taken out almost wholesale. You can't really take out Unleashed's story and have the same game, and doubly so for the actual Adventures.

Mechanically, they're a completely different play style. Aside from the obvious boost =/= 3D Classic-ish gameplay, one thing I miss from the Adventures which I feel is overlooked too much is level design that is dictated by the setting versus standardized universal obstacles. Each stage had unique gimmicks of some sort that made sense for the setting and actually varied the pacing. Take SA1's Ice Cap: There's a slow but easy trek up a snowy mountain face, followed by a more difficult and cramped climb and totter in an icy cavern, followed suddenly by the tone speeding up with a sudden avalanche and snowboard getaway. Cool, creative shit that presents the stages as reasonable places. With Boost gameplay, you don't get nearly as much of that, mainly because the point is to get through each level as quickly as possible. Ergo, each stage features mostly the same interchangeable bits as one another to make this kind of twitchy speed-running they're aiming for accessible to casual players-- low-hanging obstacles, gaps and bottomless pits, with maybe water to run across and/or a vehicle of some sort to ride in, or a robot that chases you-- and unique bits don't really make sense for the setting so much as they do the context of adding challenge from a third-person perspective (I don't get why Skyscraper Scamper has rotating cylindrical platforms, for example). No way they'd get away with Ice Cap's middle segment in Cool Edge Day, or much less think to do it because it betrays the point of the gameplay.

Oh yeah, and the biggest and most noticeable difference: where da fuck everyone else at in the Boost games???

[Wraith]

I mean, it's not really that different from the other eras. Even with "Modern fans" there's a lot of people that cant stand Unleashed that love Colors and vice versa. Throw Lost World into the mix, which is also technically a modern game and it feels like each era isn't really an "era" but a bunch of vastly different games that happen to have some surface level similarities, so they get grouped together. 

[LoseR]

Oh and before I forget, the Adventure games' cutscenes were actually for the purpose of furthering the plot, having some fun bits, and also giving us character development. Unleashed is the same way and 06 tries. Sure you could argue the cutscenes weren't well done, but the feeling and ambition behind them was there loud and clear, and if this style of cutscene was done well that'd be great.

The cutscenes have actual meaning to them and aren't just "haha Sonic and friends are cringy too-cool-for-school pieces of cardboard" like in Colors and so on.

[Blacklightning]

1 hour ago, N8te said:

To be more specific though, Adventure fans (myself included) don't hate the Boost and more recent gameplay, we just feel like most of the mechanics implemented are really just to help Sonic cover up the apparent control issues of the recent games.

The thing we want the most is a game where the player presses the stick in a direction and Sonic quickly, but not instantly, veers off to head in that direction. He doesn't change directions instantly, nor does he feel like a car. His ability to change direction is natural, but still depends on his speed. That's the BIGGEST mark of an "Adventure" game.

I think this above all else is what stuck out the most for me. I mean, the tightness of the Adventure style's controls wasn't always for the better (It was a huge detriment in 06 in particular, but less said about that the better), but especially after a generation of Boost games I can really appreciate the desire to be able to comfortably move any direction other than where boost pads and springs have to awkwardly shoehorn you into. That's fair enough.

...you know what I should probably start a thread on this sometime. Hopefully when I'm not feeling so lacking on sleep =w=

[Marcello]

I just want a game the controls like Adventure. I've never liked the way the Boost games handle (Though, I admit they did continuously improve with each game). That's the most important part for me.

A story more akin to them would be nice, but it's not on the top of my list.

also bring back ryan drummond

[Guest]

I say they should change the formula completely and launch Sonic from a slingshot.

[Guest]

Just now, Stephenb19 said:

I'm still kinda bummed that after waiting so long, we still know practically nothing about the game even after the livestream event. What's worse, Sonic Mania is gonna be used by SEGA as a distraction and an excuse to not tell us anything until early 2017 probably. I don't want to have to wait that long again for all this speculation to end - I really hope we get more information on this game soon as I'm personally far more anxious and concerned about the direction of the main series. Mania doesn't concern me in the respect that it's very clear what sort of game it will be, but I'm gonna be annoyed if they use Mania as a means to stifle information about Project Sonic 2017.

not to mention those 2 games are overshadowing Fire & Ice like hell lol, not that it matters I guess since only about 5 people will buy it anyways.

[StaticMania]

It's probably a good thing Fire & Ice is getting overshadowed, a couple of real Sonic games was the exact thing that needed to happen...to leave Sonic Boom in a trailing dust cloud.

[Guest]

Edgy

[Nepenthe]

@Mat.W Remember when Kiah said this?

9 hours ago, Kiah said:

This is at least the second time in as many days you have posted in this topic in a non-contributive manner among other instances and this cannot and will not continue as it is against the rules we have established here. If you do it again you can expect to receive a strike as this will no longer be tolerated. 

Well, you're getting a strike. Random shitposting isn't allowed here.

[ChikoLad]

3 hours ago, Azoo said:

Okay, I just got back from work (was posting while nothing was happening lol), and this got a little ugly. Let's back up a few paces.

I'm flattered and appreciate it BL, but I don't think that's all too called for. First of all, I wasn't the sole person behind that nor was I the programmer (though I was lead game designer / beta tester / etc... make note I did not design that level either, that's a test stage in BlitzSonic). Just setting that straight. lol

SECOND and more importantly, I don't think this should really cancel out ChikoLad's argument by any means. As they've shown, they're more than qualified to talk about stuff from the modern gameplay perspective, as they know their way around Unleashed and know it's mechanics pretty well.

That doesn't mean I'm calling it "agree to disagree" just yet though.

The big thing that I can say to stop you right there is that I too know of this.

It's part of the "M-speed/D-speed/whatever you wanna call it" mechanic exploit, a whole metagame to Unleashed where you can go far beyond the speeds the game intended by using moves in EXTREMELY specific ways and exact rapid-fire inputs. I've done it too, in fact I have played Unleashed up and down as well (and I will admit sliding is a bit looser in Unleashed than it is in Generations, so props for that).

And if you actually weren't referring to speed exploits, then still hear me out, because it applies either way.

The big difference here is that outside of the meta game, sliding isn't really very effective for anything that isn't "go under this tight space". A good example of comparison is that one area from Windmill Isle Act 2, where in a 2D section there's a hill, a loop, and then a small ramp. Sliding down, while the ascent may be moderately quick, is pretty sluggish instantly upon contact with the upward curve of the loop, and may actually take a few tries to pass (possibly even requiring the aforementioned stomp-slide thing to aid you) since sliding decels so quickly, and in the end it does basically nothing and essentially is a waste of time trying to pull off, as the ramp immediately slows your ascent and you don't go very high. Sliding here feels this way because the game wants you to boost there instead, as boosting is the game's way of going fast and the slide is for quick "duck!" sections.

Compare to Emerald Hill Act 2 in Sonic 2, where a higher route also leads to a downhill area, a loop, and then a spiral.  Roll there, and Sonic will quickly build up down those slopes, hurling through the loops (which on the comedown speed him up dramatically), and if met with anything to ramp him he'd be getting major airtime. Add in where Sonic may have been already at a brisk pace beforehand, and these results would be even faster.. much faster..

And while you can argue that you can get sliding to those speeds too through exploits, once again, that's all part of manipulating the game to bend to your whim. It's not quite as easy as "know where to roll and press down", just as it isn't as easy as "hold X when you have enough boost energy". It's about learning to get a move to work a way it shouldn't, which is to say far from representative of what it's supposed to do (and what most average players can/will use it for).

That's why rolling is seen as a different (and to most in here, an all around better) move: both casual players and Sonic pros can use it to their advantage with the level design. It coasts along the ground smoothly, it picks up speed ridiculously fast down slopes, and when in motion can feel like moving a high speed pinball. Those are it's redeeming qualities that put it far beyond being "identical to the slide". And if it were identical, then I wouldn't be arguing here!

Also.

I do not disagree that, like you, I'd want to still see modern Sonic elements continue to be used. I love drifting and quick-stepping, because (like rolling) the game will reward you with a sense of flow for knowing where and when to use it. And maybe a boost-esque move does work better than a Spindash would in 3D, particularly because long stretches of flat land are much more fun to blast across than having to stop, charge, aim, and shoot repeatedly. And the stomp, just as it gives sliding a burst of speed if used right, could do wonders for rolling, especially in 3D spaces!

But that's what I'm getting at. I'm talking in the thought that they should blend these ideas together, find some middle grounds, make some compromises. Sonic shouldn't be two completely different styles, it should be trying to achieve as much unity with itself (and thus it's fanbase) as it can. Does that mean I'm considering a gameplay style that takes some away from fans who want more boost games? Sure, but I also personally would want a comeback of the SA1/SA2 gameplay verbatim (or a 'classic in 3D' game as my fangame shows), and my statements don't really support that either.

I'm just talking off the top of my head with this and tbh I've been typing way too much in my posts lately lol. This is what happens when I don't post for about a week.

I've lost my investment in this discussion because people seem to repeatedly misread my posts as I will demonstrate, and that makes this hard to want to bother discussing.

But I just want to point out that at no point was I saying "they should keep the gameplay style from Unleashed to Generations". If you go back and read my initial post, my very first sentence regarding Project 2017 was that I feel the game just needs to be fun and polished, whether it's an old style or a new style of gameplay.

I was also making the point that I feel all of the three core "styles" of Sonic aren't as different as people make them out to be, because they all carry the core fundamentals of what makes a Sonic game, a Sonic game. I noted how even a lot of the new moves like Boost and Slide, are simply evolutions or deviations of the moves from past games like Spin Dash and Rolling, because they serve the same core roles, they just handle it a bit differently (and how useful or useless you feel the Slide may be, is irrelevant to the point that it's still based off the same general idea as the rolling - rolling itself wasn't necessary to completing the Classic games most of the time, appropriately enough). 

Most of this argument has come from you and others repeatedly warping what I'm saying into "Unleashed to Generations gameplay is the best" (an assumption that contradicts my previous statement of liking SA1 more than Colours), or assuming I'm saying "this move from the old games is exactly the same as this move from the new games". I argued some of the points made on the newer moves only because they were completely disregarding any similarities, because they were intent on proving me wrong on a statement I never even made to begin with. I actually didn't ever say that the Boost was the same move as the Spin Dash, only that it's an evolution of the same concept. Both the Spin Dash and the Boost are different moves but they serve more or less the same core purpose in their respective games (i.e giving you a sudden burst of speed). The differences are only in animation and in some of the properties of the moves (e.g Spin Dash will decelerate after the initial burst, while Boost can continue accelerating indefinitely), giving them a different feel to one another. But the core use behind them remains the same.

TL;DR people need to stop misinterpreting what I'm saying and arguing against points I wasn't even making.

[Riverstone]

Im happy to see that pretty much all the veterans of this site supporting the gameplay and atmosphere of sonic adventure, over the modern sonic games.

It seems that almost everyone who grew up when the adventure games came out prefer that style, whereas the younger newer fans leaning towards the modern style of games.

I feel that you really had to be there when sonic adventure came out to truley appreciate the almost perfect game that it was for its time.

[pppp]

7 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

Right, now that said, can we all please stop pretending that these are somehow herculean tasks when the precedent has been set for years if not decades, and in several cases by the same fucking franchise? I'm frankly sick of people treating modern Sonic as though it exists in a vaccuum and all the flaws, shortcomings and divides it created are irreversible or something.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but let's be honest: Does anybody here actually genuinely believe that this Post 06 Sonic Team(You know after Naka taking alot of people with him to found Prope, so they went through reestructuring) is actually capable of sucessfully pulling that off without screwing it up?

As people here have been saying, the boost trilogy is very limiting, but when they actually tried something less restrictive with Lost World, we got a game with tolerable at best controls and level design that was cheap and gimmicky.

The sad truth is that current Sonic Team when compared to other developers is a mediocre developer at best. I'm not saying they're completely talent-less but they definitely don't seem up to the task from what we've seen from them.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I honestly think "good games" is the best we're getting from them.

[Blacklightning]

5 minutes ago, pppp said:

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but let's be honest: Does anybody here actually genuinely believe that this Post 06 Sonic Team(You know after Naka taking alot of people with him to found Prope, so they went through reestructuring) is actually capable of sucessfully pulling that off without screwing it up?

I'd really hate to be this pedantic about it, but that's not really relevant. The point I was making was that it wasn't a difficult task overall. You're free to interpret that as another slight against Sonic Team's capabilities if you want, but pessimism aside it just doesn't really make for a decent discussion - in my eyes, to prefix every debate with "ST probably can't do this" is essentially to say we're content with them releasing mediocrity instead as long as it's technically the smallest of improvements, and I simply can't stand for that anymore. It's gotten old.

That being said, I feel like Sonic Team suffers from executive meddling a lot (the fact that literally every branch of Sega save for Japan alone objected to the Werehog in Unleashed says a lot), and I feel they've shown they can polish what they know as long as they don't pointlessly obsess over reinvention, so it kinda seems like the problem is less about incapability and more about misdirection? Really, I feel like they could fix a lot of problems simply by communicating better, between branches and communities both - and throwing Iizuka himself right into the heart of Sega of America is a pretty good start if you ask me. Time will tell.

[ChikoLad]

1 hour ago, Riverstone said:

Im happy to see that pretty much all the veterans of this site supporting the gameplay and atmosphere of sonic adventure, over the modern sonic games.

It seems that almost everyone who grew up when the adventure games came out prefer that style, whereas the younger newer fans leaning towards the modern style of games.

I feel that you really had to be there when sonic adventure came out to truley appreciate the almost perfect game that it was for its time.

Being a veteran of the site has nothing to do with game preferences.

I also grew up on Sonic Adventure, but I still think Unleashed and Generations are better games, even though Generations is lacking when it comes to story.

Also, Sonic Adventure definitely wasn't almost perfect. It has way too many technical issues to be called that.

[StaticMania]

Their lack of programming prowess for the 3D type really shows today, yes. Yes, Sonic Adventure's only issues are technical...which couldn't be avoided. So it may as well have been almost perfect, say 55%.

[ChikoLad]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Their lack of programming prowess for the 3D type really shows today, yes. Yes, Sonic Adventure's only issues are technical...which couldn't be avoided. So it may as well have been almost perfect, say 55%.

It's issues aren't only technical.

Big's gameplay was poorly designed and out of place contextually. So was Amy's.

It wasn't always clearly conveyed where you had to go next or what you had to do, in the Adventure Fields. Tikal can help sometimes, but frankly, if your objectives were always clear, you wouldn't need her, so her telling you where to go feels like a last minute crutch.

The game suffers from repetition/padding with you having to play levels multiple times with the different characters to get to the final boss.

And you also end up with repeated cut scenes because if that too. The story itself is also fairly jumbled up.

That's just a few things, but it's hardly a perfect game.

[Tara]

I must be the only one in the world who thinks Amy's gameplay was perfectly fine for the time.  It wasn't super fast like Sonic's, but it was hardly the snail's pace people make it out to be.  It was just a simple and relatively standard platformer to contrast with the high speed of Sonic's and everyone else's (Big notwithstanding).  I do think that witih modern sensibilities, the technical aspects and the level design are a little wonky, but conceptually speaking, I didn't mind them.

But then, I'm also not only tolerant, but extremely accepting of variety in video games and find the term "genre roulette" to be misused often, so I wouldn't have even minded Big's stages if not for the way they were programmed.

[Mark1]

I am also of the mindset that Sonic Adventure's issues are partially due to odd design decisions as well as the programming bugs with translating the franchise into full 3D. Most of the modern games suffered from unnecessary padding right up until Sonic Colours and Generations in my mind. This is why I also feel that these games fare better than Sonic Adventure 1 + 2. Make no mistake I really enjoyed them as well, but when I go back to all 4 of them Colours and Generations provide more fun - they just feel more polished. 

This is why I'm keen to see more of Project 2017, as SEGA strongly emphasize these 2 games within the teaser.

 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

15 minutes ago, Tara said:

But then, I'm also not only tolerant, but extremely accepting of variety in video games and find the term "genre roulette" to be misused often, so I wouldn't have even minded Big's stages if not for the way they were programmed.

Glad I’m not the only one who enjoys some variety in their games! Seriously sometimes I feel like I’m a rainbow polka dot alien among other gamers nowadays. =P