Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[SonicFreak94]

44 minutes ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

Citation needed, and badly.

When IIzuka was asked about the Super emeralds and related forms (and super knuckles) he said that the classic games were a seperate cannon and that when they created the Adventure cannon his idea was to (his words translated as:) "clean up all of the extra emeralds" This was at Sonic Boom in St, Louis I know because I was there. He has also made similar staments in other QNAs and I advise you to do your research. 

4 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Undyne Phoenix said:

While the characters remark on how these places seem familiar, cue fanservicing remarks to the point where Robotnik even regards his change to "Eggman".

Congrats. You just shot your own argument in the foot with that statement. 

 

Oh boy. Let me spell it out for yall

1: Generations is not cannon

2: Even if it were cannon it would only create more  discontinuity with things like Crysis City and fighting Perfect Chaos as normal Sonic ect ect ect

3: Those instances are indeed fan-service and are merely breaking the fourth wall. 

4 Even ignoring all of the above, generations still doesn't sow the games into one cobtinuity more than it creates a new parallel cannon that branches off of the Colors cannon and loosely follows the events that happened in other games.  Hence "Classic" Sonic is really a young Modern Sonic and not the actual Classic Sonic who can become Hyper Sonic and Shit. 

 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

8 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

When IIzuka was asked about the Super emeralds and related forms (and super knuckles) he said that the classic games were a seperate cannon and that when they created the Adventure cannon his idea was to (his words translated as:) "clean up all of the extra emeralds" This was at Sonic Boom in St, Louis I know because I was there. He has also made similar staments in other QNAs and I advise you to do your research. 

I'm well aware that the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms have been declared non-canon, but that certainly doesn't mean that everything in the classic games was made non-canon. This is the first I'm ever hearing of such a thing being the case. And frankly, it's laughably poor argumentation to ask your opponents to do your research for you. You're the person who has a point to prove, not me. I have no reason to believe you, so am I going to bother looking for a statement that I don't believe exists? No way. Honestly, I have no motivation to do so. Don't expect to win any arguments if you're going to expect your opponent, of all the people, to put in the effort to prove your points.

[Wittymations]

Honestly, I'm at the point where I stopped caring about Word of God, what games they consider canon and not, and all that stuff. I'll stick to my own headcanons and interpretations. Far less of a headache.

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, reflection_of said:

Generations does not count. It isn't tying together the cannon. It is just breaking the fourth wall. Hence why you go to Crysis City first even though it exists long AFTER the events of Colors and Unleashed. Yet you go to it first just because the video games came out in that order. Not to mention that the timeline that  Crysis City existed in was erased. The truth is that Generations is operating on external logic and doesn't really tie anything together. If you try to think about it from an internal perspective it just turns the series into a bigger mess.

The point of Generations was to revisit the levels from popular main games in chronological order from oldest to newest. The game itself probably isn't even cannon anyway. 

Crisis City took place in the distant future yes, but Sonic traveled there chronilogically before he went through the events of Unleashed and Colors, hence why it came first in the modern era. The locations point in time is irrelevant, otherwise, you could argue stardust speedway bad future could have taken place further than the classics for all we know.

[VolatileMike]

Let's play Sherlock and use some deductive reasoning. Actions speak louder than words, and Sonic very clearly recognizes Classic as his younger self in Generations (a game which does indeed "count" because it's a direct sequel to a canon game and its ending might be a crucial backdrop for the story-heavier Project 2017). Remember the context that SA was born in. The video game industry was chugging forward much more quickly back then; the 3D transition made any mascot's hiatus seem like an eternity (Donkey Kong 64: "he's finally back to kick some tail" just 3 years after DKC 3). In every territory outside of Japan, Sonic was nothing more than a blip on the radar for 5 years! So when making a 3D game with deeper lore, the general mindset may very well have been to unofficially reboot things. But as things developed, it became clear that there was no need to separate the two canons, and here we are now with them combined. Sans the Super Emeralds. 

[JezMM]

I still find it very hard to believe they designed Sonic Adventure to be a reboot considering it actively builds on backstory established in the Japanese manual of Sonic 3.

Then next oft-claimed "reboot" sees Shadow working as a GUN agent with Rouge, a very logical follow-on from his implied reconcilation with the GUN Commander in Shadow the Hedgehog.  2006 overall was erased but the state of the characters at the start of the story remains canon.

Like, I don't think a "reboot game" is really a reboot if nothing in THAT particular game contradicts the previous games whatsoever.  Then about five games on they fuck up some story consistency detail and are like "OH uhh WELL we uh rebooted it 4 games ago so that doesn't matter anymore".

 

Schrödinger's reboot.

[KHCast]

3 minutes ago, JezMM said:

I still find it very hard to believe they designed Sonic Adventure to be a reboot considering it actively builds on backstory established in the Japanese manual of Sonic 3.

Then next oft-claimed "reboot" sees Shadow working as a GUN agent with Rouge, a very logical follow-on from his implied reconcilation with the GUN Commander in Shadow the Hedgehog.  2006 overall was erased but the state of the characters at the start of the story remains canon.

Like, I don't think a "reboot game" is really a reboot if nothing in THAT particular game contradicts the previous games whatsoever.  Then about five games on they fuck up some story consistency detail and are like "OH uhh WELL we uh rebooted it 4 games ago so that doesn't matter anymore".

 

Schrödinger's reboot.

I'd say it makes some sense for 06, as it makes no sense why Shadow would want to join the army that wanted his head not long before, even if he forgave the commander. established things like GUN, from past games being in the reboot doesnt mean it can't be a reboot still. It's just putting the pieces of the puzzle in a new order.

[JezMM]

5 minutes ago, KHCast said:

I'd say it makes some sense for 06, as it makes no sense why Shadow would want to join the army that wanted his head not long before, even if he forgave the commander. established things like GUN, from past games being in the reboot doesnt mean it can't be a reboot still. It's just putting the pieces of the puzzle in a new order.

His friendship with Rouge and the GUN Commander turning over a new leaf to make GUN a better organisation (perhaps with Shadow's help, even) are very easy to believe if you ask me.  Plus GUN was just following the Commander's orders - if Shadow has forgiven the commander he's not going to hold a grudge against the entire army.

It just seems really arbitrary to make a new game with a story that could easily follow-on from previous ones but they changed ONE tiny detail so REBOOT.

[KHCast]

I guess when you look at shit like bomberman zero, 06 doesn't come off nearly as much like a reboot. Though I still could see it being the case either way, not that it matters now thanks to Generations.

[StaticMania]

Just now, KHCast said:

I guess when you look at shit like bomberman zero, 06 doesn't come off nearly as much like a reboot. Though I still could see it being the case either way, not that it matters now thanks to Generations.

There is such a thing as a "soft reboot", where you don't necessarily ignore any established things in terms of continuity and whatnot...but you do end up changing the tone, writing style, and maybe even the art style from previous work.

[Salamander]

When viewed in the "soft reboot" light, I would argue that the series has had a number of soft reboots.

[Mauricius]

2 minutes ago, FFWF said:

When viewed in the "soft reboot" light, I would argue that the series has had a number of soft reboots.

That would be pretty much every 3D game except SA2, SatBK and Generations.

[Tails spin]

3 minutes ago, Mauricius said:

That would be pretty much every 3D game except SA2, SatBK and Generations.

Heroes continued sa2's story 

[StaticMania]

But it changed the tone and art style drastically.

[JezMM]

Just now, Tails spin said:

Heroes continued sa2's story 

Sonic Heroes would still match StaticMania's description of a soft reboot.  Of course... then so would Shadow the Hedgehog immediately afterwards.

I think we'd have to agree that a soft reboot only counts when you stick to it for at least a fair few games.

[Tails spin]

27 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Sonic Heroes would still match StaticMania's description of a soft reboot.  Of course... then so would Shadow the Hedgehog immediately afterwards.

I think we'd have to agree that a soft reboot only counts when you stick to it for at least a fair few games.

Now that I think about yeah you guys are right. Heroes tried going back to the classic play style

[Mauricius]

Well, the actual soft reboots would be SA1 (While I don't think it really changed the tone from S3&K, it has enough differences in the story progression and art style, most notably the new character designs) and Colors, which drastically changed the tone and brought back the Acts system.

The weird thing with 06 is that while the reboot idea was abandoned, they still left a lot of other ideas that would indicate it being a reboot, like its much more realistic look (Despite ShtH having more realistic cities, there's no reason why it couldn't exist in the same world as any main game before it, while 06 even redesigned Eggman), Blaze being from the future and not from the Sol Dimension, the Emeralds suddenly having time travel powers with no story explanations (which would make Time Stones redundant from an external perspective) and the game being called just Sonic The Hedgehog, like it's the beginning af a new series. With all that, and other games also being inconsistent, it could be counted as a non-canon story, a canon one that's just erased from the main timeline, or a full reboot that has nothing to do with previous installments, since the games after it also have little to no connections to past lore.

[StaticMania]

Just now, Tails spin said:

Now that I think about yeah you guys are right. Heroes tried going back to the classic play style

They tried going back to the classic look and level progression...Heroes couldn't be any farther away from the classic play style in concept and execution.

[Salamander]

11 minutes ago, Mauricius said:

Well, the actual soft reboots would be SA1 (While I don't think it really changed the tone from S3&K, it has enough differences in the story progression and art style, most notably the new character designs) and Colors, which drastically changed the tone and brought back the Acts system.

Colours was definitely a clear break in tone and structure for the series, but I think it's sharing double-duty on that with Unleashed; Unleashed introduced (to the console titles, at least) the boost system which is more or less the standard Modern gameplay system, it arguably began an era of gameplay "gimmicks" (Werehog, sword, Wisps), and it also booted out a lot of the extended cast to focus on a predominantly Sonic-and-Tails double-act with only the former playable.  Colours took those changes and drew a more overt visual and tonal distinction by adding a new comedy-heavy writing style and more brightly-coloured, semi-abstract visuals.

Of course, if I'm being fair, it's also true to say that the boost predated '06, and arguably Mach Speed sections were a kind of proto-boost that paved the way for a greater speed focus in 3D Sonic; conversely, Colours DS had just about every regular cast member in the game.  There are always little continuities as well as big changes, and the "eras" rarely divide up as neatly as a purely academic categorisation would like.  Still, some games are clearly more radical than others.

[Mauricius]

9 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Colours was definitely a clear break in tone and structure for the series, but I think it's sharing double-duty on that with Unleashed; Unleashed introduced (to the console titles, at least) the boost system which is more or less the standard Modern gameplay system, it arguably began an era of gameplay "gimmicks" (Werehog, sword, Wisps), and it also booted out a lot of the extended cast to focus on a predominantly Sonic-and-Tails double-act with only the former playable.  Colours took those changes and drew a more overt visual and tonal distinction by adding a new comedy-heavy writing style and more brightly-coloured, semi-abstract visuals.

Of course, if I'm being fair, it's also true to say that the boost predated '06, and arguably Mach Speed sections were a kind of proto-boost that paved the way for a greater speed focus in 3D Sonic; conversely, Colours DS had just about every regular cast member in the game.  There are always little continuities as well as big changes, and the "eras" rarely divide up as neatly as a purely academic categorisation would like.  Still, some games are clearly more radical than others.

I guess I forgot how many changes unleashed had. Could we actually say that the soft reboots occured over multiple games? Since while none of the games single handedly changed the style, we can still divide the series into eras, just with more "blured" lines. So the first soft reboot would actually slowly start with S3&K by having more detailed and realistic environments and it would fully launch with the transistion to 3D, while the second one would span over Unleashed and Colors, since both games introduced different elements of a new era.

But really this "eras" thing is purely subjective. While we mostly divide Sonic into 3 eras with different starting and ending points, some people will say that each game is an isolated experience, gameplay-wise or story-wise, while some people see only one series that gradually changed its style over the years and find the division into eras from Generations unnecessary.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 hours ago, JezMM said:

I still find it very hard to believe they designed Sonic Adventure to be a reboot considering it actively builds on backstory established in the Japanese manual of Sonic 3.

 

Not to mention the many  references Adventure makes to Sonic 3.Heck,  it even includes Angel Island and Ice Cap Zone. 

[Wraith]

The series plays it fast and loose with continuity so don't worry about trying to nail down some reboot point because it probably didn't stick and it probably contradicts nothing that's happened before.  It's like a comic book series. Multiple runs that take on multiple tones and other changes.

[SonicFreak94]

On September 1, 2016 at 1:12 AM, KHCast said:

Crisis City took place in the distant future yes, but Sonic traveled there chronilogically before he went through the events of Unleashed and Colors.

Except Sonic never went to Crysis City.

*Sigh* fans these days.....

On September 1, 2016 at 0:35 AM, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

I'm well aware that the Super Emeralds and Hyper forms have been declared non-canon, but that certainly doesn't mean that everything in the classic games was made non-canon. 

It means that the classic cannon is in conflict with the adventure cannon. Modern Sonic probably went through the similar events that loosely follow the classic games. But we know that those events were not exactly the same since the super emeralds are not cannon in the adventure series. Which goes back to my point, the Classic Sonic in Sonic Generations is NOT the same Classic Sonic from S3andK. Instead he is just a younger version of Modern Sonic and is from Modern Sonic's universe. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, reflection_of said:

Except Sonic never went to Crysis City.

 

Well duh, he didn't go to "Crysis City". That city's a left turn at Albuquerque from Crisis City where he ventured through. 

Semantics and joking aside, are you referring to within Sonic 06 or because of the bad future being undone in Sonic 06's ending?

Either way, you'd be wrong though. Ignoring the easy hand-wave that the Time Eater was screwing with time and space and thus could easily have brought Crisis City back, let's remember the cutscene where Dr. Eggman states that he used the Time Eater to undo his past failings.

In the deathtrap obstacle course, filled with loops and plotholes of a track that is Sonic 06's story, Sonic defeating Eggman was in fact was, minor in the grand scheme as it may have been, a piece to the puzzle of events that eventually led to Solaris' demise and thus the prevention of Crisis City coming to be. Since ya know, the Flames of Disaster were blown out like a candle, so when Elise inevitably died, Iblis wouldn't get released and produce the ruins that are Crisis City.

[SonicFreak94]

8 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Undyne Phoenix said:

Well duh, he didn't go to "Crysis City". That city's a left turn at Albuquerque from Crisis City where he ventured through. 

Semantics and joking aside, are you referring to within Sonic 06 or because of the bad future being undone in Sonic 06's ending?

Either way, you'd be wrong though. Ignoring the easy hand-wave that the Time Eater was screwing with time and space and thus could easily have brought Crisis City back, let's remember the cutscene where Dr. Eggman states that he used the Time Eater to undo his past failings.

In the deathtrap obstacle course, filled with loops and plotholes of a track that is Sonic 06's story, Sonic defeating Eggman was in fact was, minor in the grand scheme as it may have been, a piece to the puzzle of events that eventually led to Solaris' demise and thus the prevention of Crisis City coming to be. Since ya know, the Flames of Disaster were blown out like a candle, so when Elise inevitably died, Iblis wouldn't get released and produce the ruins that are Crisis City.

Don't you get what I am saying? Sonic never went to Crisis City AND IT DOES NOT EXIST making its existence in Generations a violation of the 06 cannon. 

Are you trying to refute this or not?