Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Wraith]

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That's true. They're not really doing anyone any favors (although I wouldn't use the Boom Shadow or the Zeti as an example because they're unplayable villains, which people seem to give a pass to because they don't have any effect on gameplay), but at the same time it's very easy to contextualize Sega's weird-ass writing in a time after the furor over playable characters has come to exist for awhile.

To clarify, I'm not trying to say the uproar over playable characters played no part in fucking things up, especially since I used to be a part of it and realized it was kind of ridiculous far too late. I just see ridiculous demands and over-exaggerations in pretty much every fanbase I'm in, but what's unique about this was how Sonic Team went about handling it. The blame kind of goes both ways, imo.

[SonicFreak94]

It's really quite an unfortunate coincidence that the only 3D game that attempted to have multiple playable characters without genra roulette was 06.  People need to stop seeing everything from 06 as objectively bad as that mentality is holding the series back. Avoiding past mistakes like the plague is not going to help. What SEGA needs to do is UNDERSTAND their past mistakes and LEARN from them.

[Diogenes]

20 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

It doesn't invalidate the idea, but at the same time if it's that much a question of subjectivity and individual experience versus any reasonably thought-out argument, then it casts a huge shadow over the intellectual soundness of a decade-long campaign against the extended cast's existence. Fans of characters outside of the main four should be actually be livid that such a shitshow was ever actually taken seriously just because they got out-screamed. I know I am.

Only if I'm equally allowed to be baffled and frustrated by people who don't seem to understand that someone might actually want a specific and coherent experience out of a game rather than a grab bag of whatever ideas Sonic Team pitched in their brainstorming meetings.

People played the games, they realized they weren't having much fun with the majority of the different kinds of gameplay, so they wanted Sonic Team to cut that shit out and put the focus on the part they actually wanted to play. That's not a ridiculous position.

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The longer time has gone on, the more people consider Heroes as some egregious offense because there's 12 playable characters regardless of they fact that they all play the same as Sonic, Tails, or Knuckles.

Well they do and they don't, though. All the characters fall into one of the Speed/Flight/Power categories, but there are still differences between characters within a category. IIRC, Sonic and Shadow can light dash while Amy and Espio can't, Sonic and Shadow can triangle jump but only temporary stick to walls, Espio can triangle jump and stick to the wall indefinitely, and Amy can't do it at all, and only Espio has invisibility with which comes a couple of stealth missions that no other Speed character could reasonably approach. Obviously this isn't the same as the game having 12 completely distinct kinds of gameplay, but it's more than just the three categories having 4 aesthetic skins.

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The characters have only slightly more impact on the game as the animal capsules. If anyone is seriously off-put by Gens because they hate everyone outside of Sonic, Tails, and Eggman that much then that's an extreme personal problem I'd argue doesn't warrant serious deliberation as being worth solving. At that point, I'd tell you just don't buy/play the fucking game. It's like me whining about rocket launchers in a Halo game.

People can dislike the characters showing up in Generations without that alone making them hate the game.

9 minutes ago, SonicFreak94 said:

It's really quite an unfortunate coincidence that the only 3D game that attempted to have multiple playable characters without genra roulette was 06.

It still does, though. Just being 3D platformer characters does not mean they all play the same.

e: before it gets said: no, the differences between '06's characters may not strictly qualify as different genres, so "genre roulette" may not be technically accurate here. But there are clearly enough differences between them to bother some people, so the underlying point behind the phrase holds.

[Nepenthe]

28 minutes ago, Wraith said:

To clarify, I'm not trying to say the uproar over playable characters played no part in fucking things up, especially since I used to be a part of it and realized it was kind of ridiculous far too late. I just see ridiculous demands and over-exaggerations in pretty much every fanbase I'm in, but what's unique about this was how Sonic Team went about handling it. The blame kind of goes both ways, imo.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't mean to say Sega is blameless; they're the ones making the games after all. It's an impossible argument to make. But I don't like the idea of never being critical of fandom beliefs, arguments, and behavior in reference to how a product is being created and received, especially since we will hang a feather in our caps for the things that go right as a result of our actions and talents. Sonic Mania? You can't tell me no one is hanging its success on and is proud of the fact that its main developer is a passionate fan birthed from our particular online culture. But the fan uproar over the characters and how that shit ultimately went down? Oh, well, suddenly everyone wants to wash their hands of it and say it's all Sega's fault.

If Sonic fans going to continue championing the benefits of a relationship with a company that opens a dialogue with us, we need to take responsibility for our part in said dialogue which includes the successes and failures. And notice I say "dialogue": it's a conversation between two people. Again, these games have not been made in a vacuum for the longest time, and I'm not going to respect any argument that says they actually are when it's convenient. So you're right, there's blame to share. That should be the attitude going forward.

21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Only if I'm equally allowed to be baffled and frustrated by people who don't seem to understand that someone might actually want a specific and coherent experience out of a game rather than a grab bag of whatever ideas Sonic Team pitched in their brainstorming meetings.

No one doesn't understand this. The argument is that we can have streamlined experiences without a significant cost to people who want a little more something than a 4-hour arcade experience at full fucking price.

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People played the games, they realized they weren't having much fun with the majority of the different kinds of gameplay, so they wanted Sonic Team to cut that shit out and put the focus on the part they actually wanted to play. That's not a ridiculous position.

Correction: They wanted Sonic Team to cut out the extra characters, because that's specifically what they told Sega to do. And now that they're gone, they seem to be perfectly happy that Gens has multiple playstyles simply because Sonic is the one doing them.

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Obviously this isn't the same as the game having 12 completely distinct kinds of gameplay, but it's more than just the three categories having 4 aesthetic skins.

You're splitting hairs. There's not really enough differences to me (or even you) to say there's any more than one general gameplay style played by three similarly-playing characters simultaneously at the end of the day.

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People can dislike the characters showing up in Generations without that alone making them hate the game.

And I can still call that dumb if anyone's willing to call the way they showed up enough of a flaw to significantly gripe about it. I hate Metal Sonic, but just about everyone here would nail me to the wall for docking CD on that since he's such a minor part of the game. Indeed, he is such a minor part of the game that I don't actually give a shit about him being there despite the fact that I do indeed hate the little fucker.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

No one doesn't understand this. The argument is that we can have streamlined experiences without a significant cost to people who want a little more something than a 4-hour arcade experience at full fucking price.

When in the world did the game's length even enter the discussion?

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Correction: They wanted Sonic Team to cut out the extra characters, because that's specifically what they told Sega to do. And now that they're gone, they seem to be perfectly happy that Gens has multiple playstyles simply because Sonic is the one doing them.

Yeah they called out the characters that they didn't like playing as and didn't like as characters. And then when Sonic Team pulled the same move with the werehog they bashed the hell out of that to make their point clear. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the series performed better when it scaled back to two playable characters both having Sonic-ish gameplay and neither was a character that people had already come to dislike, compared to what most 3D Sonic games had done before it.

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You're splitting hairs. There's not really enough differences to me (or even you) to say there's any more than one general gameplay style played by three similarly-playing characters simultaneously at the end of the day.

Not entirely different gameplay styles, no, but I think the differences are significant enough that they shouldn't be overlooked.

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

And I can still call that dumb if anyone's willing to call the way they showed up enough of a flaw to significantly gripe about it.

If you're just going to write off people not enjoying most of a game's cast as a dumb complaint, you're never going to see eye-to-eye with them.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Treasure hunting, mechs, or driving in SA2, then.

and you're pretty much forced to do do those stages to get the true story. nothing wrong with it but it foes feel like your being thrown into say fishing in order to actually finish the game

[Nepenthe]

37 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

When in the world did the game's length even enter the discussion?

I only added that in to further deride the current direction.

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Yeah they called out the characters that they didn't like playing as and didn't like as characters. And then when Sonic Team pulled the same move with the werehog they bashed the hell out of that to make their point clear. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the series performed better when it scaled back to two playable characters both having Sonic-ish gameplay and neither was a character that people had already come to dislike, compared to what most 3D Sonic games had done before it.

The series performed better than it did in previous entries, true. But at the end of the day, the most critically and financially successful 3D Sonic games, as well as the most relevant games, were still the Adventure games and Heroes, extra characters, padding, and all. Furthermore, Sonic Lost World did worse than Gens, the one with all of those annoying characters, and let's not even get started on Sonic 4, which has less characters than Mania. The performance of any given Sonic game at any given time doesn't necessarily correlate perfectly with its scale or the number of characters.

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Not entirely different gameplay styles, no, but I think the differences are significant enough that they shouldn't be overlooked.

Even if I don't overlook the differences you've pointed out, what should I conclude about Heroes in regards to the overall issue of whether or not the extended cast is an overall net negative? This is an honest question.

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If you're just going to write off people not enjoying most of a game's cast as a dumb complaint, you're never going to see eye-to-eye with them.

It's absolutely rich that I'm being told I should probably be more empathetic to other fans in a time where almost everything I liked about the games previous has been stripped out or changed specifically because many of those other fans didn't actually care what people like me thought, especially over something that is ultimately a fundamental disagreement. Seriously, what is there to see eye-to-eye on with this point? You either like the characters or you don't. Could these two sides compromise? I've tried arguing that for years and have been shot down every time. We've concluded that optional characters are completely out the window because they draw away development time from Sonic. So what option am I left with aside from finally saying "fuck you" to the other side?

[Hiki]

Hey guys! How would you feel if the whole game (in-game and cgi cutscenes) had the Sonic Unleashed opening style of animation? I'd love to see those graphics. Especially on the current-gen's hardware. It could work as it's not photo-realistic, while being better than the previous generation's Sonic games at the same time.

Also, another thing I'd like to see is the use of in-game facial expressions. Kind of like LoZ Wind Waker did. That would really work for Sonic.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

28 minutes ago, SonicEkkusu said:

Hey guys! How would you feel if the whole game (in-game and cgi cutscenes) had the Sonic Unleashed opening style of animation? I'd love to see those graphics. Especially on the current-gen's hardware. It could work as it's not photo-realistic, while being better than the previous generation's Sonic games at the same time.

Also, another thing I'd like to see is the use of in-game facial expressions. Kind of like LoZ Wind Waker did. That would really work for Sonic.

While I would love pre-rendered cutscenes all the way through, that would cost massive amounts of time and money.

Could you elaborate on the facial expressions thing? I'm curious.

On the multiple playable characters subject, I just wanna play as Shadow again honestly. He can be essentially a skin for Sonic for all I care, I just wanna play as him again. ;-;

[Hiki]

1 hour ago, Radiant Hero Ike said:

While I would love pre-rendered cutscenes all the way through, that would cost massive amounts of time and money.

Yeah. I just realized SEGA blew a bunch of money on the Boom games, so they probably shouldn't blow a bunch of money of something like that.

1 hour ago, Radiant Hero Ike said:

Could you elaborate on the facial expressions thing? I'm curious.

It'd pretty much be Sonic reacting to situations around him in-game, or what he does. I'll give you some examples. Sonic boosts, and and he starts getting a focused face, while having that smirk that defines Sonic's character. Go underwater, and he'll start holding his breath, but if you go too long, he'll start to LOOK like he's drowning alongside having the counter. When Sonic gets hurt, his face will definitely show it. Or if Eggman's ship or something suddenly appears, Sonic will look surprised.

I could definitely see that mechanic working for Sonic.

[Dr. Detective]

4 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

It's absolutely rich that I'm being told I should probably be more empathetic to other fans in a time where almost everything I liked about the games previous has been stripped out or changed specifically because many of those other fans didn't actually care what people like me thought, especially over something that is ultimately a fundamental disagreement. Seriously, what is there to see eye-to-eye on with this point? You either like the characters or you don't. Could these two sides compromise? I've tried arguing that for years and have been shot down every time. We've concluded that optional characters are completely out the window because they draw away development time from Sonic. So what option am I left with aside from finally saying "fuck you" to the other side?

Yeah. And what's important to remember is that, most likely, the people asking for the Sonic cast to come back, logically, aren't literally the same people who asked them to leave.

A fuss is only kicked up by a certain side when they feel they're being ignored. When you view the fanbase as a mass of people who all want the same thing and get confused when they suddenly want another thing it's not because "Sonic fans don't know what they want". Collectively, we can't come to an understanding on most things (because of how inconsistent SEGA themselves have made the series) but individually, we're stable enough to know how and why we've come to like certain things about the series.

The outcry for the characters to return isn't a turn around on the part of those who wanted them gone. The folks who liked them kicked up a storm because it was their turn to speak out against something that they felt was unjust. Not only that, but it's 2016 now. Sonic 06 was 10 years ago, which means that a lot of the kids getting into the series or people who grew up with the series have had these characters around as apart of their lives. It's been long past the time to stop referring to Rouge and Omega as "newer" characters. My little sister is a sophomore in high school now. She was two years old when Sonic Heroes was released.

I was on the internet back when the backlash against the characters was going on. I became a fan of this series through Sonic Adventure 2: Battle, Sonic Heroes, and Sonic X. I sure as hell never asked for them to leave. 

[Scar]

For whatever reason, I feel as though the impact of actual Sonic fans on what SEGA and Sonic Team have been doing of late is massively overstated. 

So far as I can tell, the majority of the Sonic cast has been dropped because they've been critically panned or scapegoated or whatever. The reason SEGA didn't take enough care to consider the nuances of why those characters were hated so much is because they weren't looking at what the hardcore fans were saying. 

Nah, it was the gaming media, the critics and journalists who were the key influence. Non-sonic fans or those who had only a cursory interest in the franchise (if any at all) didn't care about the nuances of the supporting cast and the deeper issues with their gameplay. They simply called it as they saw it. Didn't help that the stories these characters were introduced in, were poorly written. There's a double whammy.  Not only does the supporting cast have poorly designed gameplay, but they were also fundamentally not very good characters. Add to that a sequence of truly horrific games, in which NEW characters that were written even worse were introduced in addition to an already large cast of characters that most outside our quaint fanbase, were never really that good to begin with. This quickly led to the rhetoric that characters who aren't Sonic =  bad = do not want, becoming popular. 

Sure we Sonic fans can be loud about what we like and dislike, but the gaming media and in particular the critics are much louder and far more influential. SEGA saw them all almost universally pan games. Reasons for which include a terrible design, horrible quality control/assurance and the extended cast which made the games actively worse, both in terms of narrative and gameplay. Since 2008, Sonic games have been praised by critics for the lack of presence of supporting characters. And whenever they popped up again, they were highlighted as a negative presence - even if their actual involvement was negligible. 

SEGA may say that they care about what us fans have to say and you know what, maybe they even do. But as far as I can see, they care more about what critics have to say, because they decide whether the game is well-received or thrown under a bus.

TL;DR?
Its basically all SEGA's fault. SEGA and Sonic Team were responsible for creating characters they couldn't sustain. They were responsible for writing them poorly and designing their gameplay badly. The result is a fractured mess of a fanbase, with wildly different likes and expectations. Now they're trying to formalise these divisions instead of making any attempt at reconciling this mess they've made. Fucking Sonic Boom did a fantastic job of obliterating any small semblance of good-will the franchise had built up after 'the great depression' and making it virtually impossible for supporting characters to return to Sonic games any time soon.

Its now reached a point that if one fan gets what they want, then another fan loses out. There is no officially no way of pleasing everyone. You have all the cast present, you piss of the purists. You have too few and you piss of fans of the cast. You include some members of the cast and exclude others, fans of the excluded are pissed.

There is little if any point in blaming each other, blaming fellow fans. Its nobody's fault they love/hate what they do about various aspects of the franchise. Its entirely SEGA/Sonic Teams fault for creating those niches and not being competent enough to deliver on those promises.

[SonicFreak94]

You may have laughed at me for defending the extended cast. But I always knew you would eventually see the error of your ways.

You may all be like "Uhm sorry HURRR DERR" But I am NOT letting this one slide that easily.

Remember that next time I say something seemingly outrageous. Everyone else will be agreeing with me sooner or later, and I will have the last laugh.

PHAHAHA STUPID SHEEPLE ;P 

[Hiki]

1 hour ago, SonicFreak94 said:

You may have laughed at me for defending the extended cast. But I always knew you would eventually see the error of your ways.

You may all be like "Uhm sorry HURRR DERR" But I am NOT letting this one slide that easily.

Remember that next time I say something seemingly outrageous. Everyone else will be agreeing with me sooner or later, and I will have the last laugh.

PHAHAHA STUPID SHEEPLE ;P 

You're clumping everyone together again.

[Tara]

2 hours ago, SonicFreak94 said:

You may have laughed at me for defending the extended cast. But I always knew you would eventually see the error of your ways.

You may all be like "Uhm sorry HURRR DERR" But I am NOT letting this one slide that easily.

Remember that next time I say something seemingly outrageous. Everyone else will be agreeing with me sooner or later, and I will have the last laugh.

PHAHAHA STUPID SHEEPLE ;P 

Sorry, I guess you're just too radical and free-thinking for these boards.  I'm afraid we're going to have to ban you.  You're just too edgy for us and we're honestly scared that you might shatter our fragile perceptions of reality.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

12 hours ago, SonicEkkusu said:

Yeah. I just realized SEGA blew a bunch of money on the Boom games, so they probably shouldn't blow a bunch of money of something like that.

It'd pretty much be Sonic reacting to situations around him in-game, or what he does. I'll give you some examples. Sonic boosts, and and he starts getting a focused face, while having that smirk that defines Sonic's character. Go underwater, and he'll start holding his breath, but if you go too long, he'll start to LOOK like he's drowning alongside having the counter. When Sonic gets hurt, his face will definitely show it. Or if Eggman's ship or something suddenly appears, Sonic will look surprised.

I could definitely see that mechanic working for Sonic.

Oh wow, that's a great idea! Make him as expressive as in the classics (and Mania, of course) and up it to 11.

I hope we get some info soon. TGS is coming up buy the only Sonic thing being shown there is Fire and Ice, AFAIK.

[Tracker_TD]

12 hours ago, SonicEkkusu said:

Yeah. I just realized SEGA blew a bunch of money on the Boom games, so they probably shouldn't blow a bunch of money of something like that.

It'd pretty much be Sonic reacting to situations around him in-game, or what he does. I'll give you some examples. Sonic boosts, and and he starts getting a focused face, while having that smirk that defines Sonic's character. Go underwater, and he'll start holding his breath, but if you go too long, he'll start to LOOK like he's drowning alongside having the counter. When Sonic gets hurt, his face will definitely show it. Or if Eggman's ship or something suddenly appears, Sonic will look surprised.

I could definitely see that mechanic working for Sonic.

He actually kind of does that from time to time (spoilered for size)

Spoiler

 

 

He even does a little "c'mon" gesture in the last example.

 

Not to mention his animation does change when boosting, even if just by clenching his fists.

It could definitely be expanded; though given how often the player's just staring at Sonic's back, idk

[Lucid Dream]

I really like a good part of the Sonic character's. A few Sonic characters are interesting and good, but Sega just keeps on killing them. And yes, this is largely Segas fault, not the fans or the critics, because no fan wanted this.  

Shadow was killed in ShtH. Now nobody takes him as a serious character. Even when he has good character developments or story segments, nobody cares. 

Blaze was butchered in Sonic 06. She was a great character in Sonic Rush, but Sonic 06 threw all that out the window and made her backstory so much more convoluted than it ever needed to be. Now they can't introduce her into a new game without everyone questioning her existance. 

Knuckles is nearing death in the main canon. Ever since Sonic Battle, he's been characterised horribly in most cases. 

Rouge and Cream aren't well liked for some reason. Amy hasn't been important or interesting since Sonic Battle/heroes.  Omega and Emerl are both dead. They cannot be brought back as characters. Metal Sonics story has also ended, and there's little continuation to be had. The rest of the cast are all completely 2 dimensional and boring.

What characters can Sega use? Sonic and Tails are the only ones to not be butchered (too much). I can't think of many people who would be happy with Cream and Rouge being reintroduced into the plot. Not reintroducing the wide cast of Sonic characters would be the right thing to do. Most of the cast has been damaged by Segas own hands and cleaning up that damage would take some time. Reintroducing Knuckles and fixing his character would be a good move right now. Rushing it by reintroducing everyone could lead to another Sonic 06 in terms of story. Sega needs to improve their reputation and fix their characters first. 

[Muscles Maximum]

Who are you to say what characters Sega can and can't use? I just hate the idea that only Sonic and Tails can be used because they're the only characters that haven't been 'ruined'. As if shit like this hasn't happened. 

Characters being playable is one thing, but the fact people think they can't even show up in the story to have something to contribute is ridiculous. Honestly, even if Cream isn't the most popular character, who would actually be upset if she showed up in a few cutscenes of a new game? Anybody? It's shit like this that makes me so mad that Big wasn't at Sonic's birthday party in Generations. Because he's such a horrible character, he couldn't be bothered to actually show up in the game outside of a hidden trophy room most people don't even know how to access, because if he had showed up, the games score would have taken a hit right...? Right??

It's ridiculous.

 

[Mad Convoy]

33 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

What characters can Sega use? Sonic and Tails are the only ones to not be butchered (too much). I can't think of many people who would be happy with Cream and Rouge being reintroduced into the plot. Not reintroducing the wide cast of Sonic characters would be the right thing to do. Most of the cast has been damaged by Segas own hands and cleaning up that damage would take some time. Reintroducing Knuckles and fixing his character would be a good move right now. Rushing it by reintroducing everyone could lead to another Sonic 06 in terms of story. Sega needs to improve their reputation and fix their characters first. 

I'm inclined to agree. I like the extended cast and would be happy to see them in the limelight again, but only if they're going to be portrayed well. Reintroducing them all at once is a disaster waiting to happen since Sonic Team would have less time to focus on working on fleshing them out and, in some cases, reestablishing them. This isn't an argument for "Sonic Tails, Eggman" only cast-- I think Sonic Team can handle much more than three characters. But I do want Sonic Team to be careful not to overdo it. One of the biggest problems with the first half of the 21st century of Sonic stories was how bloated the cast got and how carelessly characters were introduced-- I really don't want a return to those days.

[Lucid Dream]

1 hour ago, Apple Kid said:

Who are you to say what characters Sega can and can't use? I just hate the idea that only Sonic and Tails can be used because they're the only characters that haven't been 'ruined'. 

Wow, aren't you being a bit hostile over my opinion? I don't mean to start an argument. 

What I'm trying to say is that Sega should try to fix the problems they've made for the characters. Like they need to clear up Blaze's backstory and make it clear that the Sonic Rush Blaze is the real Blaze. They need to reastablish that Shadow is not an edgy friend-hater. Which character did Sonic Generations improve? Sonic Generations actually harmed Blaze. Right now, Tails and Sonic have the least problems compared to them. 

Considering that most of the Sonic games with large casts have created huge problems for their characters, it would be natural to want Sega to take it character by character and individually build them back up and improve them. Taking it step by step, rather than rushing it, seems like the best thing to do. Sega only seems to want to put all of them or none of them in though. 

[Nepenthe]

Not sure why people keep reiterating this "take it slow" timetable approach when most people aren't saying bring everyone back at the same time with all the previous problems anyway. It's almost like we're still not being listened to.

[Marcello]

I don't expect much more than Generations in the main character department. It's just going to be Sonic, Tails, Eggman and their Classic counterparts. Maybe a new companion like Chip or Yacker. Maybe Amy and Knuckles. Everyone else will probably have small roles, if even.

[Mad Convoy]

11 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Not sure why people keep reiterating this "take it slow" timetable approach when most people aren't saying bring everyone back at the same time with all the previous problems anyway. It's almost like we're still not being listened to.

I was only responding to Lucidream and expressing some cautions. It wasn't meant to be a criticism of you, or anybody who isn't responsible for writing at Sega and Sonic Team, really. We know that you and those like you didn't ask to bring everybody back at the same time-- but what Sega and Sonic Team actually choose to do is a different story. They tend to have an "all-or-nothing" approach to writing, so it makes sense to be worried that they're going to overdo it and actually try something like bring everybody back at once or otherwise be haphazardly inept with characterization.

Besides, look at these two parts of what I wrote:

1 hour ago, Mad Convoy said:

I like the extended cast and would be happy to see them in the limelight again, but only if they're going to be portrayed well.

1 hour ago, Mad Convoy said:

This isn't an argument for "Sonic Tails, Eggman" only cast-- I think Sonic Team can handle much more than three characters. But I do want Sonic Team to be careful not to overdo it. 

I explicitly stated that I like the extended cast and agree that we should bring back some of it. In other words, not an argument against what you're saying.

[Nepenthe]

I wasn't specifically addressing you, but rather Lucid Dream. In general though, what Sonic Team does is irrelevant to what some people want and are asking for, so elaborating on all the ways an idea can go wrong from their end and constantly saying we need to take baby steps comes across as unnecessarily policing certain fans or arguing past the point being made or against strawman. Like, when people ask for classic gameplay to come back I don't go, "Whoa there, before that happens they need to get the physics right first, and then they can move on to the level design. Remember Sonic 4?" Proper execution the first go around is an assumed ideal of any proposition being put forth, so it doesn't need to be reiterated all that much.