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Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

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2 minutes ago, SonicEkkusu said:

I beat Colors in about 5-8 hours. We definitely need some longer Sonic games, though.

Yeah, but if you were to play through Generations' story, I legitimately think you could have it done within four hours, it's that short. 

A lot of Sonic games are really short to be honest, and there are fewer exceptions that have an actual decent time that doesn't involve padding. Secret Rings for example is long, but that's because there's a crap ton of additional missions, and you need to take random guesses to which ones are needed to progress, and which ones were just there as additional stuff.

Unleashed did a decent job, the medal hunting excluded, seeing as it had it's fair share of additional acts, missions, and story, and it took me a good 10 hours or so to get through that. 

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22 minutes ago, SonicEkkusu said:

I beat Colors in about 5-8 hours. We definitely need some longer Sonic games, though.

I feel like Sonic's best games are the short ones that are replayable. Making Sonic games longer would require either more and longer levels (which, given the average pace of gameplay, would involve tons of R&D and cash), slowing Sonic down to an uncomfortable pace or adding other gameplay mechanics to add fluff.

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Just now, Indigo Rush said:

I feel like Sonic's best games are the short ones that are replayable. Making Sonic games longer would require either more and longer levels (which, given the average pace of gameplay, would involve tons of R&D and cash), slowing Sonic down to an uncomfortable pace or adding other gameplay mechanics to add fluff.

It doesn't necessarily have to slow Sonic down, or feel padded. There could at least be more levels that you can speed through, or there could be multiple paths that could get you to the goal faster, or slower (six minutes at max.). Multiple paths wouldn't need to be a maze, but have them be easy to navigate to get to the goal.

Another option I think should happen (but likely won't due to the forbidden other characters.) would be multiple campaigns. They wouldn't be forced on you, but they would be optional. You'd have to play through just one to get the final story. I see people complaining about being forced to use characters they don't care about in the Adventure games, and that'd be the reason for making it optional.

The most likely option, however, would be DLC. Maybe add big level packs or something?

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29 minutes ago, SonicEkkusu said:

It doesn't necessarily have to slow Sonic down, or feel padded. There could at least be more levels that you can speed through, or there could be multiple paths that could get you to the goal faster, or slower (six minutes at max.). Multiple paths wouldn't need to be a maze, but have them be easy to navigate to get to the goal.

Another option I think should happen (but likely won't due to the forbidden other characters.) would be multiple campaigns. They wouldn't be forced on you, but they would be optional. You'd have to play through just one to get the final story. I see people complaining about being forced to use characters they don't care about in the Adventure games, and that'd be the reason for making it optional.

The most likely option, however, would be DLC. Maybe add big level packs or something?

The multiple paths thingy is there already, the simplest one being in GHZ Sonic Generations Act 2 for example and it works out perfectly, a slower but an easier one, and a faster but more challenging one.

Now I get what you're saying by simply adding more levels to the games to make it last longer but it might get to a point where it gets boring... Maybe that's just me but no matter how good the game is if it gets repetitive and too long to the point where it becomes kind of boring to beat, that's a problem. Adding a few more levels would be fine, but it wouldn't change much, but adding more than that could make the game boring imo. S3&K was a short game, beat it in like 4-5 hours, yet it is still one of if not the best sonic game ever released. It's short but replayable. So length of the games isn't much of a problem as long as it's not abnormally short or even worse, way too long.

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21 minutes ago, Neeko said:

The multiple paths thingy is there already, the simplest one being in GHZ Sonic Generations Act 2 for example and it works out perfectly, a slower but an easier one, and a faster but more challenging one.

Now I get what you're saying by simply adding more levels to the games to make it last longer but it might get to a point where it gets boring... Maybe that's just me but no matter how good the game is if it gets repetitive and too long to the point where it becomes kind of boring to beat, that's a problem. Adding a few more levels would be fine, but it wouldn't change much, but adding more than that could make the game boring imo. S3&K was a short game, beat it in like 4-5 hours, yet it is still one of if not the best sonic game ever released. It's short but replayable. So length of the games isn't much of a problem as long as it's not abnormally short or even worse, way too long.

By the multiple paths, I mean multiply the amount. Making it more open like the Adventure games would also be awesome since I'm tired of the narrow levels.

I grew up with the longer games, so maybe it's a nostalgia thing.

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Considering Sonic Team's previous attempts at awkwardly extending the general length of their games, I'm surprised they never bothered to try and bring back the mission system used in SA2. Combined with a proper ranking system, I could see it providing at least a couple extra hours of entertainment for completionists.

36 minutes ago, SonicEkkusu said:

By the multiple paths, I mean multiply the amount. Making it more open like the Adventure games would also be awesome since I'm tired of the narrow levels.

The Adventure games featured pretty linear level design, though? At least Adventure 2 did. Unless you're talking about how some of Adventure 1's levels were less hallway-like, but I'm not really seeing how using that design philosophy would contribute towards extending overall game time.

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12 minutes ago, Clewis said:

Considering Sonic Team's previous attempts at awkwardly extending the general length of their games, I'm surprised they never bothered to try and bring back the mission system used in SA2. Combined with a proper ranking system, I could see it providing at least a couple extra hours of entertainment for completionists.

The Adventure games featured pretty linear level design, though? At least Adventure 2 did. Unless you're talking about how some of Adventure 1's levels were less hallway-like, but I'm not really seeing how using that design philosophy would contribute towards extending overall game time.

I was mainly talking about the Adventure levels being less hallway like. I was probably just spouting out ideas at that point (I love you, Adventure). The missions would be a great return, though. If they have a ranking system, it would be nice if they don't make A ranks impossible like in SA2.

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I dunno, I actually really appreciated that A ranks were legitimately challenging to get in SA2 - they're pretty much the perfect rank, so frankly it should be expected that you have to work your ass off to get it. And that drive to get better at the game is replay value in of itself, no? If anything, the status quo right now is the less desirable option. I can't remember many times in Generations I didn't get an S rank simply by getting through the level without dying, it's so simple it borders on outright patronizing.

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11 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

I dunno, I actually really appreciated that A ranks were legitimately challenging to get in SA2 - they're pretty much the perfect rank, so frankly it should be expected that you have to work your ass off to get it. And that drive to get better at the game is replay value in of itself, no? If anything, the status quo right now is the less desirable option. I can't remember many times in Generations I didn't get an S rank simply by getting through the level without dying, it's so simple it borders on outright patronizing.

I didn't mean make it so simple like Generations. I just meant make it at least a little bit easier. It might've just been because I wasn't as skilled at the mech-shooting and treasure hunting stages as I was with the speed stages. Especially on very hard mode.

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6 hours ago, SonicEkkusu said:

I hope this game is actually decent length. I don't want this to be another Colors-length game where you cam beat the main game in about a day.

It might be a crummy thing for me to say but I think that if you make a Sonic game too long that you lose a huge chunk of what's so entertaining about it to begin with. The worlds are huge but if you know what you're doing you uncover all of the secrets and get through a big journey fairly quickly. I love my exploration in Sonic games, but I think that you need a balance between great story and brisk game to run in and really get a good feel for being Sonic and his buddies and then utilize those abilities to max potential and play with how the world works. Most great Sonic games do this and I may be a little too fast in some of them

I'd love a huge game with tons of things to do that lasts a long time, don't get me wrong. But I'd like to be able to do it in a day at most. You don't need to make Sonic into Skyrim. Green Hill Paradise Act 2 is a good example of making a huge game that's still fairly quick to run through. It doesn't need to be long and potentially boring. You just need to be at wits with the character you control and play to your heart's content and move at your own pace. Make big stages, hide in Special Stage Tunnels/Rings/Teleportations-what-have-you, but let that be an addition to a game that's actually surprisingly straightforward (but try to make it functional for more than just high operating gaming PCs).

If anything, my only hope for Sonic 2017 is that we're moving away from the Boost formula and more towards having multiple playable characters. That's my only want out of this game aside from seeing the theme of Time Travel Conqueror Eggbotnik be the running theme so Sonic has to lead a band of.... koffkoff.... Freedom Fighters, if you will. I don't care how short it is. I want it to be something fun. I want to come back to it several times over just because it was a fun game. Not because I wasn't good enough, but if I get better then its an added bonus on subsequent runs. 

And something that really needs to happen to really evolve Sonic now is to let the world breathe and maybe have Sonic be a more momentum based guy who isn't go fast all the time. Focus more on the adventure and how fun it is than how fast you can go but if you get good at that there's a lot of neato things you could do. I don't know. Just a thought. Maybe we might see more playable characters again if that happens. That'd be really nice. I miss playing as whoever I wanted if they could add an extra layer to the story. That'd be nice to have again. 

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I think the problem is less about length and more about the amount of content. Practically all Sonic Games (with the arguable exception of Unleashed) you can beat in a day, but the games that last you for years have lots of things that one can explore and uncover or at least fool around with, whether it was a new path you've never reached in S3&K or fooling around the levels and collecting Emblems in the Adventures or collectable tunes, art, and cutscenes in Unleashed.

I'd like to think we can be more rewarding tho, as usually games these days have unlockable gameplay mechanics and abilities that contribute more to the actual game than being mere trophies or collectables. Unleashed and Generations tried something along those lines, although depending on who you are, you might find what they did lacking.

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A great way to increase replayability in newer Sonic games is to make the ranking system harder. If the gameplay is fun, people will drive themselves absolutely silly trying to get that S-rank. Slap on some achievements that are tied to achieving a B-rank, A-rank and S-rank, and BOOM. To be brutally honest, on a scale from E to S, I should not be achieving an S, A or B-rank on my first time through a level. 

A B-rank should feel like an achievement in and of itself. A B-rank should be difficult enough to warrant receiving an achievement/trophy for obtaining one. An A-rank even more difficult and an S-rank should demand near-enough perfection. 

Add to this a worldwide leaderboard, where the best completion times, scores etc. can be displayed and you've got yet more reason to continue playing.

But. Most importantly of all, I think the game should be sufficiently fun that you want to replay it, even if you've finished everything it has to offer.

EDIT:

Oh and add in a Chao Garden if there is time to spare for its development. It adds something else for people to toy around with if they so choose. I can't imagine it harming the game at all, particularly if its fun.

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There's definitely a middle ground - SA2's A-Ranks are some bullshit that I cannot feasibly understand how to get without either stopping and killing a bunch of enemies or just chaining together seemingly random actions. Metal Harbour's is weirdly insulting, given that the only way to get it is an insanely difficult, unnecessary route right at the end. Colours and Unleashed get it right - you can often see room for improvement when you get an A or a B rank, and it can feel attainable for the most part. Generations I play more as a time attack, which gets the same idea across. 

I had the reason to play thru Generations start to finish recently, and even with some deaths in the challenges (Vector, I curse thee) it was all over in 3 and a half hours. Granted, I'm pretty fucking good at Generations, so you'd probably tack on an hour or two if you're a normal human being who doesn't play it all the time. 

Game length is a bit of a red herring, though - Colours is short, true, but the vast majority of people who play games barely sit down for an hour or more to play casually. It's why many modern games gear themselves towards short sessions of play that you keep coming back to - You don't sit and play Destiny, Rocket League or Overwatch (or indeed, any mobile game) for 6 hours, they're designed to be sugar rushes to occupy the player for an hour or two at most, then repeating that experience. When I first played it, I was only playing for that amount of time a session, it took me two weeks to beat (Wiimote snapping frustration at Terminal Velocity aside). 

So I'm not concerned, tbh - as long as there's some replay value in the levels. 

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How would you rank these ways to add content to a Sonic game, from the one you like the most to the one you like the least?

1-More levels.

2-More expansive levels, with alternate routes and exploration.

3-Multiple playable characters, including exclusive paths for each one.

4-Mission system, like SADX's Mission Mode or alternate objectives SA2/Heroes style.

5-Collectibles, like Red Rings or the gallery stuff in Unleashed (not required to advance the story).

6-Extra, non-story content (Chao Garden?).

All of them seem pretty good to me, so I can't decide a particular order.

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2, 1, 5, 3, 4 and 6. Will explain my order of preference below.

2, 1. Would love more levels than Generations, but only if they are not many as linear as Modern Green Hill/Chemical Plant and more like Seaside Hill. Will keep saying it but that modern level demonstrated a LOT of what I want to see from 3D gameplay. Fast, expansive and fun. I just want them to expand on that at least. It was further along my ideal title than either of the Adventure titles. Fix up the controls and the spin dash for some momentum gameplay and I'll be happy.

5. Gives players an incentive to explore those expansive levels.

3. I personally feel Sonic Team should focus on getting Sonic's gameplay perfect before attempting to implement other characters. Make no mistake I'd love to see others playable but I'm also happy with Sonic only.

4. Would welcome missions as long as they don't have any mediocre ones like in previous titles such as SA1, 2 and Generations.

6. If they had extra time to implement a Chao Garden I wouldn't say no. However, I'd prefer to keep all their resources towards making these 2 gameplay styles as good as possible.

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10 hours ago, Diogenes said:
10 hours ago, Scar said:
A B-rank should feel like an achievement in and of itself. A B-rank should be difficult enough to warrant receiving an achievement/trophy for obtaining one.
That seems excessive, and more likely to turn people off of attempting to get better ranks. Unless the player's already hooked on the game (in which case they don't really need rankings to keep them playing), you need to give them some reason to believe they can improve in a reasonable timeframe and with a reasonable amount of practice, or it's going to seem like more trouble than it's worth. To me it's more like, a B is for someone who can, say, reliably beat the level without dying; it shows they know the game's mechanics and the level design well enough to complete it without serious issue, but there's still clear room for improvement.

Perhaps then there should be more room between ranks. Generations made it too easy to get an A rank in my opinion. Can't speak for lost world, but I think at the very least an A rank should be challenging and an S rank even more so.

If there must be a perfect bonus to jump a rank upwards, then it should incorporate a bit more than just not dying. Perhaps collecting X rings in a stage in addition to not dying or not getting hit or something.

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I always figured Sega could just pull a Crash Warped and judge rankings based on how fast the devs themselves cleared the zones instead of just having some arbitrary and set high number to decide whether you get S ranks or not. And pretty much have the same idea for score attack mode.

And maybe those rankings could lead to unlocking content for working so hard as well as having braging rights on the leaderboards (

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Mission mode is great for replayability. It extends the content of the game by hours with minimal work from the development team.

Imagine SA2's format which has 4 extra missions for every level, but without the shooting and treasure hunting levels, and the Chao emblems. Throw in a well-made ranking system and that sounds like something that would be a blast to 100%.

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18 hours ago, Hyp3hat said:

There's definitely a middle ground - SA2's A-Ranks are some bullshit that I cannot feasibly understand how to get without either stopping and killing a bunch of enemies or just chaining together seemingly random actions. Metal Harbour's is weirdly insulting, given that the only way to get it is an insanely difficult, unnecessary route right at the end.

Metal Harbour's kind of an extreme example admittedly, but there's a part of me that actually really likes the concept of routing for flashiness over actual practicality and being rewarded for it - if nothing else, it's a pretty good solution to the age-old dillemma of "why have Green Hill esque loops in 3D games when you can just walk around them?", and honestly, it sounds like the kind of thing a cocky bastard like Sonic would do given the chance. If it were up to me, I'd grade speedrunning and score attacking separately, insofar as you only need to really get one or the other for the game to consider that stage A-ranked. Best of both worlds.

14 hours ago, Ajavalo said:

5-Collectibles, like Red Rings or the gallery stuff in Unleashed (not required to advance the story).

To be kind of blunt, I really don't like collectibles much in the way Sonic games to date have done them. In fact, Red Rings are pretty much the worst of them simply because of how far out of the way they are. Collecting them almost always means going off the beaten path in obscure ways that don't contribute to flow, nor does flow contribute to - it's pretty much the same problem I had with the green stars in Mario Galaxy 2, collecting them never really feels natural for the game in question, kind of like they were added in as an afterthought. Even Special Stages, despite being hidden in walls most of the time, were never longer than a 5 second diversion to find.

Personally I'd just make alternate routes themselves the collectibles, if that even makes sense. Find a route off the beaten path, a secret room, a shortcut, whatever, you get a token just for walking through it.

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22 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Personally I'd just make alternate routes themselves the collectibles, if that even makes sense. Find a route off the beaten path, a secret room, a shortcut, whatever, you get a token just for walking through it.

Just like the way you would find collectibles in Sonic R

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8 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

To be kind of blunt, I really don't like collectibles much in the way Sonic games to date have done them. In fact, Red Rings are pretty much the worst of them simply because of how far out of the way they are. Collecting them almost always means going off the beaten path in obscure ways that don't contribute to flow, nor does flow contribute to - it's pretty much the same problem I had with the green stars in Mario Galaxy 2, collecting them never really feels natural for the game in question, kind of like they were added in as an afterthought. Even Special Stages, despite being hidden in walls most of the time, were never longer than a 5 second diversion to find.

This'll be a matter of preference, but I want that kind of collectibles to be as out of the way as possible. My favourite Red Rings in Sonic Colors were those that required doing something completely different than just getting to a certain path (like that mid-air Laser maze in Aquarium Park, it was hard but satisfying). Otherwise, as you said, the items might as well not be there. I want incentive to do unusual things.

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On 9/15/2016 at 5:24 AM, Haalyle said:

That's because it's just a teaser. And even if we wanted more information, Mania comes out long before 2017, so it really makes sense as to why Mania has more information.

 

Mania comes out in 2017 as well as Project 2017.

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