Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

I feel like having that much speed and aerial mobility would require rethinking the formula so thoroughly it could hardly be called the same as what Sonic was doing.

[Lucid Dream]

Giving Tails and Knuckles that much air mobility would require a complete overhaul of the level designs

You know how I said Blaze had a few key differences to Sonic? One of them is her up trick, which sends her ridiculously high and makes her either skip a huge section of the stage or hit an invisible ceiling in many situations. It can be pretty OP. If Tails were able to have that on demand, than he would break the game with ease. With Blaze, they can choose when she goes flying, so she doesn't break the game too much.

And Knuckles is whole new mess to deal with. His glide with speed would be like an unlimited Sonic forward trick, again requiring a good overhaul to suit that.

It's doable and a pretty cool idea, but requires waaaay too many overhauls and changes. It might breach into being alternative gameplays even. 

[Menace2Society]

There's actually some mods for Generations that demonstrate how Tails and Knuckles' abilities would work in a Boost game. Maybe they can use these as a example for how they can work with the Boost gameplay?

 

[Mad Convoy]

Well, obviously there would be limits to what Tails and Knuckles can do. Tails, as usual, would only only be able to fly for so long before tiring out and rapidly gliding down. Knuckles, on the other hand, wouldn't be able to glide up (only forwards and down) and would also tire after awhile (though, for the purpose of balance, he wouldn't take nearly as long as Tails to tire). There are ways to set limits without fundamentally changing the gameplay.

Again, I think the only part that would have to be radically altered is the level design-- as the other mechanics (boost, physics, etc.) would be unchanged, the gameplay would still be undeniably boost. If the game, say, had a three year development period, I would be concerned about Sonic Team having enough time to make all those levels work and would advise against multiple playable characters unless they played exactly like Sonic. But if it has a full five/six years, as many have speculated, then that's plenty of time to make those different levels happen. Look to what YoshiParty posted-- if its possible to modify levels clearly not designed around Tails's and Knuckles's abilities to fit those characters without them being cheap, its definitely possible to make fitting, fun levels that are designed around their abilities without them being cheap.

Out of curiosity, if you guys don't like the idea of Knuckles and Tails, how would you feel about having Blaze or Shadow (two characters who have traditionally played in a very similar way to Sonic) as options?

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Look to what YoshiParty posted-- if its possible to modify levels clearly not designed around Tails's and Knuckles's abilities to fit those characters without them being cheap

See I'm not convinced of that. In the videos he posted their flight and gliding are barely ever used. They're played largely as if they're just model swaps. I can't really judge how balanced Tails is, but Knuckles certainly has breaking potential, judging from this other video:

 

[Mad Convoy]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

See I'm not convinced of that. In the videos he posted their flight and gliding are barely ever used. They're played largely as if they're just model swaps. I can't really judge how balanced Tails is, but Knuckles certainly has breaking potential, judging from this other video:

 

Well, as I mentioned, these are levels that aren't designed around the ability to fly and glide-- they're designed around Sonic. If the levels were designed around those abilities, it would be possible to accommodate them and keep them from breaking the game, as well as provide more opportunities for using said abilities. This could be a little tricky but absolutely does not require fundamentally changing the game-- an extra wall here or there, lots of upward mobility ensuring that you can't glide for too long or just fly over everything, etc. 

Just because an ability can potentially break the game doesn't mean that it will. Execution is everything.

[Lucid Dream]

4 hours ago, Mad Convoy said:

Out of curiosity, if you guys don't like the idea of Knuckles and Tails, how would you feel about having Blaze or Shadow (two characters who have traditionally played in a very similar way to Sonic) as options?

I respect your ideas, and I've come to acknowledge them as something that is definitely possible. In those few sections where Tails did fly, it was actually pretty good. WIth some altering, they could actually make Tails playable and be fairly fun. With suitably designed stages, Tails could definitely work. Yes, he might be kinda broken, but he could play as an easy mode or something. 

But, in regards to Knuckles, I would say it's best to use Blaze instead. Blaze has the hover ability, which is similar to Knuckles's glide, but has higher acceleration and is better suited to speed and precise platforming. It also has a much smoother landing and it would avoid the wall climbing issue that Knuckles has. I would absolutely love it if Blaze could come back and she really should considering she is the only other character to be in the boost games. She's already all set up.

I guess Shadow could also join in, but he'd have to have some differences from Sonic. 

[DaN]

I'm all for taking back sonic adventure 1 core gameplay and build up from there. 

Better camera, better collisions with walls...

I'd like to see something along the line of this:

3 main characters (can be Sonic Tails and Knuckles) with similiar gameplay and some specific abilities.

the rolling would be for the three of them

Sonic is the fastest, with the fastest homing attack, good handle, can use elemental shields and might have a kick move. In Levels there could be some hidden paths for his unique abilities

Tails can fly less like SA1 , runs slower, best to handle , has no proper homming attack but can attack with his tails

 Knuckles glides , climbs and diggs but runs slower than the rest of them, worst handling, lower jump, has a kind of homing attack but slower. His attacks are the strongest and they could implement small group of enemies that knuckles could smash with ease compared to the others

 

then I'd like to see 2 or 3 main hub worlds that can also be playgrounds like SA1 , where you can freely switch between the 3 characters and 7 different locations for levels

Every Level has:

- 2 main acts: for these you can choose one character at time to use as they can  be completed by all the characters. It increases replaybility because the 3 characters can walk through specific places. The First Act or sometimes the second could have  a mini boss at the end.

- The proper BOSS act where you have to use all the characters

- 3 side missions/ mini levels for a specific character, and every character could have 2 different kinds of special levels

Sonic: a 2D level  or a boost gameplay level 

Tails: a Tornado minigame or a mini level suited for his flying 

Knuckles: a treasure hunting level or a smashing enemies level.

oh, of course a proper Chao Garden, please

 

 

[Darinian]

1 hour ago, DaN said:

Sonic is the fastest, with the fastest homing attack, good handle, can use elemental shields and might have a kick move.

I'm good with all of your idea but the nitpick in me couldn't be held in for the bolded part. How would this work, because I'm pretty sure that the fire elemental shield in 3d is just unwiished's boost and the water elemental shield would be a death sentence when homing attack chains go into play over bottomless pits?

[Diogenes]

The bubble shield would be fine so long as they put the shield actions on a separate button from the homing attack. The fire shield is a bit redundant alongside the homing attack, though, unless it's just a stronger air dash.

[Straw Hat]

I'd imagine the Fire Shield in 3D would be more like an Air Boost, compared to a more SA1 styled Jump Dash. And the Bubble and Electric Sheilds don't really need much explainantion. 

For Sonic, his control scheme would kinda be like (X-Box Controls):

A: Jump, Jump Dash, Homing Attack

X: Spin Dash, Roll

B: Slide Kick, Shield Actions

Y: Light Speed Dash

So really, the Shield Actions shouldn't be an issue in terms of controls. The only reason in the Classics they were on the Jump Button, was to keep the control scheme simple for a 3 button controller. Now that's not really necessary...

[Lord-Dreamerz]

11 hours ago, Mad Convoy said:

Out of curiosity, if you guys don't like the idea of Knuckles and Tails, how would you feel about having Blaze or Shadow (two characters who have traditionally played in a very similar way to Sonic) as options?

I don't care much for Knuckles & Tails in general nowadays. So yes I'd LOVE if they used Blaze especially... Shadow is err meh to me... but he would fit the gameplay good. However Metal-Sonic would be a great fit for the boost style gameplay if you ask me.

 

[Lucid Dream]

5 hours ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I don't care much for Knuckles & Tails in general nowadays. So yes I'd LOVE if they used Blaze especially... Shadow is err meh to me... but he would fit the gameplay good. However Metal-Sonic would be a great fit for the boost style gameplay if you ask me.

Metal Sonic is a great idea! Normally he's a Sonic clone, but in Sonic Adventure 2, Metal Sonic was significantly different to Sonic. 

Some things, like his faster speed but slower acceleration probably can't be put into boost. But he does have plenty of other abilities, including the copy ability, so I'm sure there's plenty to do to make him unique. 

[Marcello]

6 hours ago, Straw Hat said:

I'd imagine the Fire Shield in 3D would be more like an Air Boost, compared to a more SA1 styled Jump Dash. And the Bubble and Electric Sheilds don't really need much explainantion. 

I'd rather the Jump Dash just be more like Adventure's by itself.

[Straw Hat]

2 hours ago, Marcello said:

I'd rather the Jump Dash just be more like Adventure's by itself.

Well, yeah. That's what I'm saying. He'd regularly have an SA1 styled Jump Dash, while the Flame Shield would be more of an Air Boost.

[Marcello]

3 hours ago, Straw Hat said:

Well, yeah. That's what I'm saying. He'd regularly have an SA1 styled Jump Dash, while the Flame Shield would be more of an Air Boost.

Oh, right. Misread it as the air boost being comparable to Adventure's jump dash.

[Pixel]

I hope Sonic '17 is a Solo Sonic experience.

Sonic has never worked correctly in a 3D environment. At its best, in Adventure 1, Sonic controlled somewhat well but was still victim to overly sensitive movements and a poor grip. He'd go speeding all over the place with little control. This was combined with the controls not retaining the direction of axis, which would send Sonic steering in different directions when the camera uncontrollably shifted. Sonic Adventure had terrible controls but it also represented the closest Sonic has reached to a good 3D environment. This is despite Sonic Adventure's status as a truly terrible game.

After Adventure, Sonic Team kept making terrible decisions and making this gamestyle worse. With Unleashed, they created the Boost formula which is very shallow and a bad game mechanic. The Boost is only good at moving very fast in a straight line and encourages incredibly linear level design. The Modern levels in Generations attempted more expansive environments but these were a chore to play because of Sonic's terrible controls when not moving in any direction but straight ahead. Boost was a failure and represented a major step backwards from Adventure 1.

Lost World was also terrible. It most closely resembles Adventure but is worse in every way. Sonic's turning is terrible and the use of a run button takes momentum out of the gameplay completely. The parkour was a nice mechanic but was horribly executed with dreadful controls.

For these reasons, Sonic has never worked well in 3D and Sonic Team need to focus on finding a way to make Sonic play well in 3D. The friends usually have abilities which are difficult to employ in even the best level design, such as flight, gliding and climbing. Sonic Team shouldn't attempt to incorporate these abilities when they can't even make Sonic play well in 3D.

I, for one, am very happy that the friends continue to not appear in the future titles. Sonic Team need to ensure that they can actually make Sonic work correctly in a 3D environment. I hope that Sonic '17 will be a solo Sonic experience.

[Menace2Society]

Idk. I thought Sonic and his friends controlled perfectly fine in Adventure 1 and 2.

Pretty sure the controls for the characters were the least of our issues with multiple playable characters in 3D games.

[StaticMania]

The problem with Mechs in SA2 was entirely control based...same with Amy in  SA1.

[Menace2Society]

I can understand Mechs in Adventure 2 didn't really control that well, but that's really just two characters. Every one else controlled fine. And, it's not like it can't be smoothed out or anything. In fact, Gamma in Adventure 1, who's gameplay is basically the same as the Mechs, controlled much better than the Mechs. That's just a case of Adventure 2, butchering playstyles that were fun in Adventure 1.

Also, don't remember Amy controlling that badly in SA1. I only remember my issue with her was that she was a bit too slow, that's really about it.

Edited October 9, 2016 by YoshiParty

[StaticMania]

Amy has almost tank controls in SA1...yeah she was slow, but just like the mechs turning drains the very little speed she gains and she can't do slopes. She can do stairs, but she cannot do slopes. She cool, but could've been better.

[Indigo Rush]

Tank controls are Sonic R where you can't turn and accelerate at the same time. 

Amy in SA1 and the mechs in SA2 are just slow. 

[Pixel]

It isn't simply about bad controls, it's about Sonic never feeling and playing correctly in 3D.

If Sonic isn't right, we need to focus on him rather than adding other character who also have terrible gameplay.

[Muscles Maximum]

People keep saying that but it bothers me because they've have how many years to focus on just Sonic? People who want a 3D game to play exactly like the classics did will be impossible to please because that's just never going to happen.

No other franchise has to deal with anything like this. I'm gonna be like everyone else and use Mario for comparison since it's the easiest to compare to. Mario 64 feels completely different to the Mario games before it. Nobody complains about that. Sonic Adventure Sonic controlled just fine for the time it was released. It's not 1:1 with the classics but it gets the job done, and it felt like Sonic. But then people go and act like if they were to return to a style more similar to Adventure, that it'd have the same twitchy controls. SA1 came out 17 years ago. Stop acting as though they can't improve upon what they did. If Amy was made playable again do you think she'd be just as slow and hard to move around as she was in SA1? 

With all this classic pandering SEGA has been doing I'm gaining confidence that they're understanding what makes Sonic feel like Sonic. At first I was under the impression they were just using the classic look to win back the older fans, especially with how off Classic Sonic felt in Gens. But now with Mania being a real thing, it gives me high hopes. I mean, I know with a new 3D game people still won't be satisfied that you can't perfectly replicate the way you could roll in Sonic 1 but you can't win 'em all.

Funny thing is that I've even heard people say that things don't have to be 1:1 with the classics, just make something that feels good to play. And they've come up with so many different styles of games like Advance 2 & 3, Rush, Heroes, Boost games, Lost World and people just don't like it. To be honest I'm not sure what I'm complaining about or what my point even is anymore.

Oh well.

[Bowbowis]

47 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Tank controls are Sonic R where you can't turn and accelerate at the same time. 

Amy in SA1 and the mechs in SA2 are just slow. 

Really the mechs in SA2 aren't even that slow. They're slower than Sonic sure, but they still move at a pretty good clip. The only real problem I have with the mech controls is their wide turning radius, which is something of a necessary evil. Remember, when you hold the action button in SA2 you can use the analog stick to rotate the top half of the mech independently of the bottom half, enabling you to aim in all directions regardless of which way you're moving. This only works because the lower half of the mech rotates more slowly than the top half. If they moved at the same speed the player would have to turn the entire mech around if they wanted to hit something that wasn't directly in front of them (something which had been a rather glaring flaw in Gamma's gameplay in SA1). In a modern game this wouldn't much of an issue, the developers could simply assign aiming to the right analog stick a call it good, but the Dreamcast didn't have a second analog stick, forcing Sonic Team to choose between having less precise controls or inhibiting the player's ability to keep moving forward. They chose the former. Whether it was the right call or not is up for debate but in the end they did the best they could with what they had.

(P.S.) I must admit I find kind of funny that people give the mechs so much shit for their controls yet praise the boost games and Lost World, which have the exact same problems to much greater degree and with far less justification.