Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Darinian]

OK I've watched this for a bit and I'd like to say @Diogenes

33 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If you try to make a straight platformer with Tails and Knuckles playing as they did in SA, you're going to have a fundamentally broken game. Tails' flight snapped levels wide open already and the only reason Knuckles' abilities didn't is because his objective was treasure hunting rather than reaching a set point.

Obviously if they bring tails and his SA1 controls back they would obviously have some experience with tails and his skipping over levels. It could easily be stopped by adding giant walls that blocks you from flying there or even adding no flight allowed parts. Tails in SA1 never really was game breaking, they just exploited what ST programmed in. They cold just easily just rip his gameplay and fix the few (or a lot) of things that are wrong with it. 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

There is no opposition to this.

Could'a fucking fooled me.

3 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Nobody is asking for a game with multiple characters at the expense of not figuring out how the fuck they work in a gameplay environment, and to be frank it's kind of asinine that you're making out like anyone actually wants that.

Good thing I'm not, then. My point is that people are trying to rush the process and basically expect miracles out of developers that have proven time and time again that they only have the most tenuous grasp of how to make this series work, while I get shit for wanting them to slow down and focus on the one thing that matters above all else before worrying about something that is undeniably optional.

3 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

The thing is, most people also want other characters to be based on Sonic's gameplay too, so they both work hand in hand - there's no reason they can't do both in one fell swoop if they happen to find a gameplay style that actually works, because in an ideal environment the basics are shared across the board anyway.

The reason I think they can't do both at once is that they struggle to do just the one thing.

3 minutes ago, FlareSakithaSol said:

OK I've watched this for a bit and I'd like to say @Diogenes

Obviously if they bring tails and his SA1 controls back they would obviously have some experience with tails and his skipping over levels. It could easily be stopped by adding giant walls that blocks you from flying there or even adding no flight allowed parts.

That is really lazy and unsatisfying design, dude. Players practically never enjoy having their powers taken away arbitrarily, and just putting up walls to stop major skips is sloppy and doesn't solve the problem that there's hardly any reason for Tails to stay on the ground for any length of time.

3 minutes ago, FlareSakithaSol said:

Tails in SA1 never really was game breaking, they just exploited what ST programmed in. They cold just easily just rip his gameplay and fix the few (or a lot) of things that are wrong with it. 

I think the problems with SA Tails' gameplay are so fundamental that they're better off starting from scratch and completely rethinking how to implement his abilities rather than trying to hack solutions into it.

[Lucid Dream]

28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

considering they've yet to prove themselves capable of developing a game with a single playable character, yes. This is not an unreasonable position.

Maybe it would seem less unreasonable if you stopped presenting vague criticism and opinions as fact and actually explained yourself a little. 

You know, try to explain how Sonic and Blaze in Sonic Rush are so awful and dysfunctional. 

[Diogenes]

If there's something you think I haven't explained sufficiently, ask.

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You know, try to explain how Sonic and Blaze in Sonic Rush are so awful and dysfunctional.

They aren't and I've never said that they are. Anything else you need clarified?

[Lucid Dream]

Like how boost Sonic isn't good? Because you literally said Sega hasn't managed to make a good Sonic ever. Boost Sonic (including Sonic Rush) are a big part of that. So if you think Sega can't make alt characters, explain Blaze? Yes, she's appeared in Sonic Adventure style gameplay too.

As far as I checked, they've pretty much got the boost gameplay down. They've got multiple characters for it down, and it's a good transition from 2D to 3D. 

[Diogenes]

Just now, Lucid Dream said:

Like how boost Sonic isn't good? 

At this point I think most people are tired of hearing me rant about the boost games. In short, the boost itself is massively overpowered, encourages hallway-like level design rather than something a bit more open and curvy, and relies heavily on automation to guide Sonic through the level. The related moves like the quick step and slide are all very shallow and largely just amount to pressing the right button to dodge in the right direction while boosting, turning the game into a flashy version of Simon. Even when the game does pull out a slower-paced section, you have very little to do in it, because most of your moves are designed for the boost-based sections. It's shallow gameplay prioritizing flash over substance, and so expensive for the developers to make that by their own admission they've had to create other kinds of gameplay to pad the games to a reasonable length. It's a dead end and we need to move on from it.

Just now, Lucid Dream said:

They've got multiple characters for it down,

The only characters they've made work with it are the ones that play basically identically to Sonic (Blaze, Shadow, Metal). They've not shown room in it for characters like Tails or Knuckles because it's so laser-focused.

Just now, Lucid Dream said:

and it's a good transition from 2D to 3D. 

I think it's an awful transition that abandons the mechanics of the Genesis games for something that puts style over substance.

[Darinian]

34 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That is really lazy and unsatisfying design, dude. Players practically never enjoy having their powers taken away arbitrarily, and just putting up walls to stop major skips is sloppy and doesn't solve the problem that there's hardly any reason for Tails to stay on the ground for any length of time.

I think the problems with SA Tails' gameplay are so fundamental that they're better off starting from scratch and completely rethinking how to implement his abilities rather than trying to hack solutions into it.

Well they could just do the most obvious thing to do to stop exploiters and just do what generations and unleashed did. You get out of bounds, there's a death plain. You go too high, you're dead.

[Diogenes]

Punishing the player with death for exploring the levels with the abilities given to them is pretty harsh. Obviously there needs to be boundaries to prevent the player from going out of the level entirely, but it's not a reasonable way to balance Tails' flight within the level's bounds.

[Darinian]

Exactly, but if you go to far and get to obvious places you aren't supposed to be at aka oob don't expect to not die

[Diogenes]

...alright, but that hardly solves any of the problems with Tails' gameplay.

[Darinian]

Okay then state what would make each character a better gameplay experience then. It'd help for understanding your point of view.

[Wraith]

I think tropical freeze is actually a bad example. In most cases there's no reasons not to use Dixie, with the exception of situational bits of level design where you need Cranky's cane. The game is a long shot from being balanced. If a platform veteran like Nintendo can't pull it off, it can't be easy.

 

That being said, Sonic 3 wasn't exactly balanced either, but people still picked their favorites and had fun with them. Tails was undeniably the easier option in most cases, but I still always pick Sonic anyway because it's more fun. Balance isn't as huge of an issue as just making sure they're all fun.

[Sonictrainer]

3 hours ago, Pixel said:

Sonic Team have always shoehorned some stupid gimmick with Sonic's friends in 3D. If the friends were playable in '17 then they would almost certainly have a stupid gimmick.

Wasn't Tails technically a gimmick in Sonic 2?

3 hours ago, Pixel said:

Even though it is by DIMPS, look at how Sonic 4 butchered Tails' flight mechanic for an example of how they could fuck the controls up.

That game isn't 3D though...

3 hours ago, Pixel said:

For Sonic Team, they butchered Knuckles' gliding in Sonic Heroes.

I'm trying to think of a way Knuckles can glide and climb walls with Sonic and Tails while still pushing the POWER element thing....

I guess it could be a alternate version of the Flight formation but that might not work.

3 hours ago, Pixel said:

The level design problem is obvious, look at Tails' broken levels in Adventure (such as Windy Valley).

...what's obvious about it?

3 hours ago, Pixel said:

If they introduce Sonic's friends in '17, they would almost certainly fuck their levels up. So I think that instead of making disastrous decisions with Sonic's friends, they should try to nail Sonic in 3D. That's the priority because they've never done it.

If they can create different controls and play styles for Classic Sonic, Modern Sonic, the Werehog, Wisps, RC vehicles, and even Omochao in the past 8 years they've said this, surely they can take a crack at making levels for Classic Tails, Modern Tails, Classic Knuckles, and Modern Knuckles.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, FlareSakithaSol said:

Okay then state what would make each character a better gameplay experience then. It'd help for understanding your point of view.

That's kind of a hard question to answer, I can't exactly pull fully formed gameplay concepts out of my ass, nor am I going to claim I can figure out the best ways to handle every character. Broadly, I'd say, ditch the boost, bring back an emphasis on momentum, slope physics, and rolling, give everyone the homing attack or some similar aim-assisting ability, give Sonic some parkour abilities so he can have his own gameplay niche, and severely nerf abilities like Tails and Knuckles' to keep them more grounded but in a way that they're still fun to use.

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

That being said, Sonic 3 wasn't exactly balanced either, but people still picked their favorites and had fun with them. Tails was undeniably the easier option in most cases, but I still always pick Sonic anyway because it's more fun. Balance isn't as huge of an issue as just making sure they're all fun.

Well there's two kinds of balance, balance between multiple characters and balance between the character and the stages. Unless there's some kind of competitive multiplayer character vs character balance isn't a big concern, but character vs stage can be a major issue.

[Lucid Dream]

56 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

At this point I think most people are tired of hearing me rant about the boost games. In short, the boost itself is massively overpowered, encourages hallway-like level design rather than something a bit more open and curvy,

Good that you dislike linear games. Maybe you should play, I dunno, an open world game than? There's nothing inherently wrong with being streamlined and linear. And the boost isn't that overpowered, it's quite easy to get hit by enemies in Sonic Rush at many points. I hope you realise some enemies are set up for destruction and not as a threat.

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The related moves like the quick step and slide are all very shallow and largely just amount to pressing the right button to dodge in the right direction while boosting, turning the game into a flashy version of Simon

This doesn't happen nearly enough to be a problem. This is required for speedrunning to feel more satisfying. Yes it's slightly underwhelming, but Sonic colours and unleashed actually break away from this mold a few times, having you fight enemies. Highly subjective, but at most a minute issue. 

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It's shallow gameplay prioritizing flash over substance, and so expensive for the developers to make that by their own admission they've had to create other kinds of gameplay to pad the games to a reasonable length. It's a dead end and we need to move on from it.

It's shallow because it has a handful of Simon segments, has enemies have new roles, and is linear. I don't see how Sonic Rush prioritises flash over substance more than the classics, except that it does it much better. The substance in boost games is trial and error alongside other mechanics and multiple routes. 

Also, care to explain all the padding in Sonic Rush and Sonic Generations 3Ds? None of the boost games had any significant padding outside Sonic Unleashed. Sonic 2 has more padding than Sonic Rush! 

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The only characters they've made work with it are the ones that play basically identically to Sonic (Blaze, Shadow, Metal). They've not shown room in it for characters like Tails or Knuckles because it's so laser-focused

Blaze has more important differences to Sonic than Tails. She hovers, has a higher Jump and has hugely different trick abilities. All are very important. Metal Sonic, again, has several important differences to Sonic in SA2B. How can you claim Blaze is a Sonic clone, while acknowledging Tails as a separate character.  

Trust me, you dont need to repeat my words. And it's not because it's "laser focused" It's because Knuckles has a stop start ability with wallclimbing, breaking the boost gameplay and Tails will be tough to balance, (But he can play as an easy mode). 

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 it's an awful transition that abandons the mechanics of the Genesis games for something that puts style over substance

You're essentially just complaining that the boost gameplay is different to the classics. It's not lacking in substance, it just places it in very different places. I have no clue how you'd even consider it a dead end. Perhaps a creative dead end, but not even that can be fully said. 

They're different, stop expecting the boost game to be like the classics. Actually, just stop expecting Sonic to be like the classics again. They aren't even that good. 

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

 

Well there's two kinds of balance, balance between multiple characters and balance between the character and the stages. Unless there's some kind of competitive multiplayer character vs character balance isn't a big concern, but character vs stage can be a major issue.

Stage balance is another thing I wouldn't mind a bit of leeway on. Sure, each character can have drawbacks, but Tails from conception had been built around the idea that younger players could use his flight ability to keep up. You could use Tails as a way for younger, or more inexperienced players to see most of the game without struggling too much while also tightening up the level designs so the game isn't so easy on the rest of us. Tails would be a little broken, but then I could just not pick him.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

Good that you dislike linear games. Maybe you should play, I dunno, an open world game than?

It's not that it's linear, it's that it's barren and repetitive.

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

And the boost isn't that overpowered,

Man even a lot of boost game fans will admit it's overpowered. Near-instant top speed, a persistent hitbox rendering most enemies harmless, usually plentiful fuel. What more would it need for you to consider it overpowered?

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

This doesn't happen nearly enough to be a problem.

It's the majority of the game, even if it's not always as explicit as "quick step here" or "slide under here".

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

... but Sonic colours and unleashed actually break away from this mold a few times, having you fight enemies.

Combat in Sonic games is not fun.

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

Also, care to explain all the padding in Sonic Rush and Sonic Generations 3Ds? None of the boost games had any significant padding outside Sonic Unleashed. Sonic 2 has more padding than Sonic Rush! 

I'm focusing primarily on the 3D boost games, because 3D is where Sonic hasn't been figured out yet. And I'm really not sure what you consider padding in Sonic 2.

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

Blaze has more important differences to Sonic than Tails.

No. You may be able to name more differences Blaze has than Tails, but Tails' flight is far more transformative than all of Blaze's differences put together.

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

Trust me, you dont need to repeat my words. And it's not because it's "laser focused" It's because Knuckles has a stop start ability with wallclimbing, breaking the boost gameplay

Yeah that's my point, the boost gameplay is so laser focused on speed that Knuckles' abilities don't fit into it coherently.

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

You're essentially just complaining that the boost gameplay is different to the classics.

If that's all you got out of my posts, it's not worth my time arguing with you any further.

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Stage balance is another thing I wouldn't mind a bit of leeway on. Sure, each character can have drawbacks, but Tails from conception had been built around the idea that younger players could use his flight ability to keep up. You could use Tails as a way for younger, or more inexperienced players to see most of the game without struggling too much while also tightening up the level designs so the game isn't so easy on the rest of us. Tails would be a little broken, but then I could just not pick him.

Character vs stage balance doesn't mean that all characters need to be equally balanced against the stages. What I'm talking about is, to pick an extreme example, Tails' Windy Valley. If you know what to do, his abilities break the level so much it may as well not even exist, which isn't any fun beyond the novelty of it. You can certainly balance things so some characters have an easier time than others, but a character that can trivialize most obstacles isn't any fun.

[Darinian]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What I'm talking about is, to pick an extreme example, Tails' Windy Valley. If you know what to do, his abilities break the level so much it may as well not even exist, which isn't any fun beyond the novelty of it. You can certainly balance things so some characters have an easier time than others, but a character that can trivialize most obstacles isn't any fun.

My God people stop bringing this level up. WHEN WILL A PERSON PICK UP A SONIC GAME AND KNOW HOW TO DODGE DEATH PLAINS PERFECTLY HMM?

[Diogenes]

Like I said, it's an extreme example. I'm not expecting it to be the norm. But look at how Tails interacts with a level like Speed Highway, compared to how you play it as Sonic:

That's not really viable game design.

[Darinian]

OK yeah levels like speed highway definitely do play horrible when you're tails

[Muscles Maximum]

The thing about Speed Highway with Tails, infact, most levels with Tails is that they're loaded with those dash hoops so you're never touching the ground. Tails really can't fly upwards for very long at all without those.

If you remove those dash hoops from the equation I think Tails would be pretty spot on and have nice platforming that would actually be quite challenging considering every level is a race.

[Marcello]

It's been, what, ten years since the current Sonic Team took over? If after all this time SEGA still feels they haven't gotten Sonic right, I think it would be time to replace them again.

[Pixel]

Note that neither I or Diogenes are saying that Sonic's friends should never be playable in a 3D title. Only that Sonic Team should focus on Sonic considering that they cannot even get his gameplay right in a 3D environment. And seeing as Sonic Team will have control of the 3D titles in the forseeable future, we have to think practically about them as developer.

[JezMM]

While I agree with the notion that it's okay for Tails' flight to be broken and overpowered to assist younger players, it's one of those things that worked significantly better in 2D due to the fact that background scenery was just scenery.  In 3D games, you either have to put manhours into designing terrian that Tails players will theoretically be able to see - even if it leads to nowhere, or have his abilities completely break all semblance of reality in the game world.  Rendering a cityscape as a bunch of buildings fading out of a black void with a 2D background was acceptable back in the Dreamcast days, but you wouldn't be able to have a Speed Highway as vividly detailed as Sonic Generations' version if Tails was playable without making sure all those skyscrapers have backs to them in case a player flies around them, making sure they all have collision data so you don't just fly straight through the ones that are meant to be "background" for Sonic - and said buildings will be significantly less detailed up-close, which is also something Tails players will be able to see.  Tails flight would have to be SEVERELY nerfed in order to avoid issues like this to the point that no real clever shortcuts will be possible.  Tails players will be pretty much be playing the game like it IS a 2D game - you have to stick to the same paths as Sonic but you can just fly over anything you find difficult.

Not that fun really.  I'd rather see other concessions for younger players, like ditching the lives system, or a New Super Mario Bros. style demo mode that unlocks if you fail at a hazard enough (and allows you to regain control at any time).  That way anyone can play as Sonic with the intended moveset.

Tails definitely needs to be rethought to make it into 3D, and actually Sonic Adventure wasn't a bad step in the right direction - where breaking the level was encouraged to succeed - but 3D envioronment design in modern games is just too detailed to allow that sort of thing - unless we want another game that looks like Lost World (I far prefer the thrill of conquering landscapes that look like they exist independent of Sonic's journey through them).

[Pixel]

Tails' levels in Adventure were terrible. They were shortened versions of Sonic's levels where you just flew over everything. There was no design in Tails' levels whatsoever outside of a few Boost rings. Tails' gameplay is a perfect example of why you can't just put Tails and Knuckles into Sonic's stages in 3D, because they just break the levels outright. Its fun for a novelty factor but that quickly wears off. If you want to put characters like Tails and Knuckles into 3D, you have to design levels around their abilities.

I think the problem we are having here is that people are greatly underestimating how difficult it is to implement characters from the Sonic franchise into a 3D environment. Flying, gliding and climbing are very difficult to incorporate into intelligent 3D level design, you can't just translate the 2D level philosophy from Sonic 3 into 3D and expect it to work perfectly. Sonic Team would fuck it up and we can't think of the ideal dream team, we have to recognise the fact that Sonic Team will develop these 3D mainline titles for the forseeable future.

And incorporating characters like Metal Sonic and Shadow would be easier but it would also be little more than a model swap with different animations. I'm not opposed to that but wouldn't that be a shallow way of incorporating these characters? I would rather see Shadow chaos warping across levels and Metal Sonic using his electric abilities.

I'm not against the friends featuring in the 3D games in the future but I don't think it's a priority in any way. Sonic hasn't reached his version of Mario 64 yet, we haven't seen a 3D Sonic game that plays in a fully satisfying way. Once we nail Sonic's gameplay in 3D then we can incorporate the friends. I just don't see how Sonic's friends need to be included in such a hurry when they are by no means a top priority for this franchise.