Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Ajavalo]

I'm gonna give my view on the subject of "Sonic Team can't get Sonic right in 3D", which is considerably different of anything else I've read here:

Something pretty much everyone here can agree on is that creating the "optimal" Sonic gameplay in 3D is damn hard. I think no fan developers have ever gotten closer to it than Sonic Team, unlike 2D in recent times, and let's not even talk about other parties hired to develop official games. So, not just because of Sonic Team, but because of all existing developers, I think said "optimal" gameplay that translates everything that captivated everyone in the 90's is an unreasonable standard, not the expected one. They can't get things right not because they can't do jack shit, but because nobody in the world knows how; I always get extremely vague answers whenever I ask it to complainers. All considered, I can only be thankful of Sonic Team for giving me gameplay styles that, while not as captivating, still represent what Sonic is and are fun to play in their own way: Sonic's stages (and Tails' and Knuckles' movement) in Sonic Adventure make for a really cool speedy platformer that many people enjoy to this day despite being made with flawed 1998 technology, a new game with this style touched up to eliminate the few bad points would be my dream come true; the boost gameplay isn't exactly my cup of tea, but I've still found ways to enjoy it for what it is, and it definitely has brought new fans to the franchise.

Long story short: Sonic's only flaw in this matter is that, unlike other platformers, he's ambitious and special, one of the reasons he's my favourite. We can blame SEGA and Sonic Team for bad decisions, yes, but this isn't one of them. It must be very hard for them, both the developing process and the undeserved opinions about them.

[Pixel]

I'm not demanding a perfect game that translates Sonic 3 into 3D, I'm asking for a great game with solid mechanics that isn't hampered with severe flaws. Even Sonic's stages in Sonic Adventure, which is the best Sonic has been in 3D, is fatally flawed with terribly unresponsive controls and broken mechanics. It isn't because the game is old. I can go back and play Mario 64, Spyro and Banjo Kazooie, despite how dated the levels are and camera is, they are still responsive and play well.

Sonic Adventure is a fundamentally flawed title and it isn't because the game has aged. The Boost is severely flawed and not worth working on.

[Diogenes]

3 hours ago, Ajavalo said:

Something pretty much everyone here can agree on is that creating the "optimal" Sonic gameplay in 3D is damn hard.

Eh, less than people might think, IMO. Like, making any professional grade 3D game in this era is damn hard, I don't mean to say this is a task that can be bashed out in a week or anything like that. But the things that I feel are missing from 3D Sonic are not actually radically difficult to implement.

Like, here's slope physics, in a nutshell. Get the normal of the surface you're standing on (that's basically the direction perpendicular to the surface, any 3D engine can do this trivially and they're used constantly), get a vector representing gravity (just a "down" vector times whatever the strength of gravity is), then project the gravity vector onto the plane defined by the surface normal (that sounds complicated if you're not familiar with it but it's a pretty basic vector math operation that is most likely already built into any 3D engine, just plug in the values and it spits out an answer). And that's about it. The result is the component of gravity that's parallel with the slope, a force pointing downhill that's proportional to how steep the ground is. Granted from there you'd probably want to tweak some numbers, consider special cases, things like that, but you'd be doing that for any gameplay mechanic, it's nothing unique to slope physics.

If Sonic Team can make games as complex as Unleashed and Lost World, there should be nothing about the Genesis Sonic mechanics that they can't handle.

[Cyrus]

My god, this thread's just full of backwash and it'll unfortunately stay that way until we get gameplay footage or details in, like, May. It just had to be a CG only trailer, didn't it?

[Mad Convoy]

2 minutes ago, Cpooky Cyrus said:

My god, this thread's just full of backwash and it'll unfortunately stay that way until we get gameplay footage or details in, like, May. It just had to be a CG only trailer, didn't it?

Yeah, I feel you.

Honestly, I don't think 3D Sonic is as hopelessly difficult to do right as a lot of are implying. Or even all that bad/irredeemable. But eh, I've said all have to say at this point-- for now I guess we'll just have to wait and see how people's reactions are once we get more info besides just a CG clip.

[Joellui]

IMO, I don't think changing gameplay's every few games is perfecting Sonic. If they keep changing the gameplay I don't think they will ever get Sonic right. I feel like changing Sonic's gameplay is just a waste of time. The Sonic Team should stick what works the most and that is the Boost Formula.

The Boost is what works the most, the problem is for me is that Boost should be limited to when you can do it, so it can maybe fix how linear Sonic Levels can get, but then again how wide of level can you get when you're making a speed platformer game. 

Now with the multiple characters, I think they should make levels only for the purpose for the player to use those characters abilities. Something like with SA2 did in away. Just because theres flaws, that doesn't mean we should get rid of them entirely. You might as well stop making Sonic games's since they're just so much flaws with Sonic. 

I guess Sonic Team should know how to make good game, before they can make a Sonic game if that's the case.

[Diogenes]

23 minutes ago, Joellui said:

IMO, I don't think changing gameplay's every few games is perfecting Sonic. If they keep changing the gameplay I don't think they will ever get Sonic right. I feel like changing Sonic's gameplay is just a waste of time. The Sonic Team should stick what works the most and that is the

Genesis formula.

But that aside, I can understand the frustration with the series repeatedly trying to reinvent itself, but locking it down to one formula is no guarantee of success either. Locking the series into what works best so far can very easily mean locking it into assumptions that hold it back.

[Joellui]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Genesis formula.

What do you mean  the Genesis formula? The only thing close to that was the SATBK with the other characters that was optional and was not needed to complete the game. I think that was a great presentation of a great formula and how additional characters were treated in. That's the way I see it. 

[Diogenes]

I mean exactly what I said, the formula that was used for the Genesis games. It's not a 3D Sonic formula (not yet anyway), but it is the most successful Sonic formula.

[Joellui]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I mean exactly what I said, the formula that was used for the Genesis games. It's not a 3D Sonic formula (not yet anyway), but it is the most successful Sonic formula.

How can you say that a formula is great when it was never used in a 3D Sonic game before?

[Diogenes]

...because where it was used (properly) it resulted in the best games in the series?

A bit of skepticism about how it would translate into 3D is fair, but there's no doubt that it's successful in its own right and I personally trust it far more than I do the boost gameplay.

[Joellui]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...because where it was used (properly) it resulted in the best games in the series?

A bit of skepticism about how it would translate into 3D is fair, but there's no doubt that it's successful in its own right and I personally trust it far more than I do the boost gameplay.

I completely agree with the fact that it worked in 2D games, but I was wondering the fact on how it would translate into a 3D scenario.

[Diogenes]

Very well, by my predictions.

But we'll never know either way if they just stick with the boost gameplay.

[Joellui]

I just hope that if they use the classic formula, that they don't butcher the gameplay and use what worked without trying to add or take away anything from that formula, because the Sonic Team would do something.

[StaticMania]

Adjustments are mandatory for the 3rd Dimension shift regardless...so any additions or whatever should be expected.

[Lucid Dream]

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

...because where it was used (properly) it resulted in the best games in the series?

A bit of skepticism about how it would translate into 3D is fair, but there's no doubt that it's successful in its own right and I personally trust it far more than I do the boost gameplay.

Except not really? None of the classic games are that amazing and are certainly not the best games in the series. With Sonic 2s godawful bosses and Sonic CDs barely function gimmicks.

There's no reason to believe the classic formula would work particularly well in 3D. There's no point abandoning both the Boost and Lost world system for a system only for classic fans that could turn out bad. 

[Marcello]

Even if you personally don't like the Classics much, they're generally seen as the best games in the series.

[Menace2Society]

Yeah, I'm not huge on the Classics (I only really like Sonic 2.), but I have to admit that they are more higher quality games than most Modern Sonic games, so I can't really blame anyone for thinking that.

[Lucid Dream]

1 hour ago, Marcello said:

Even if you personally don't like the Classics much, they're generally seen as the best games in the series.

Popular opinion doesn't make fact. 

My point is that making a 3D game based on the classics won't immediately make some masterpiece as some seem to think. The classics have many problems, and while I agree that some are among the best Sonic games, I don't think that automatically means that they'll translate to 3D well. 

Personally, I think an independent system, designed around 3D gameplay is ideal instead of a system based off 2D games.  

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, Lucid Dream said:

Popular opinion doesn't make fact. 

My point is that making a 3D game based on the classics won't immediately make some masterpiece as some seem to think. The classics have many problems, and while I agree that some are among the best Sonic games, I don't think that automatically means that they'll translate to 3D well. 

Personally, I think an independent system, designed around 3D gameplay is ideal instead of a system based off 2D games.  

They've been doing this for 15 years now and it hasn't worked, so what's the problem with actually...trying what made Sonic great to begin with?

[Lucid Dream]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

They've been doing this for 15 years now and it hasn't worked, so what's the problem with actually...trying what made Sonic great to begin with?

The boost system is quite clearly based off the 2D boost games. And that has been around for 8 years. The adventure games are somewhat based off the classics/advance series as well. 

[Kuzu]

Just now, Lucid Dream said:

The boost system is quite clearly based off the 2D boost games. And that has been around for 8 years. The adventure games are somewhat based off the classics/advance series as well. 

What 2D Boost system? Yea and they've longed since moved on from anything pertaining to Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 to do exactly what you said, making a new 3D system....that has not worked in nearly all inceptions.

[Lucid Dream]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

What 2D Boost system? Yea and they've longed since moved on from anything pertaining to Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 to do exactly what you said, making a new 3D system....that has not worked in nearly all inceptions.

Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush adventure were both games that came out before Sonic Unleashed, and had the system before it. The boost system wasn't something designed for 3D, and it's definitely far from a new system. 

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush adventure were both games that came out before Sonic Unleashed, and had the system before it. The boost system wasn't something designed for 3D, and it's definitely far from a new system. 

Sonic Rush and its sequel has a pretty radical change in level design from the 2D games to compensate for the boost, and its basically the precursor to what the 3D games would become.

When people say they want the 3D games to incorporate 2D gameplay, they mean from Sonic 1-3K and how they played. Every 2D game barring maybe the advance titles has deviated pretty far from what made those games truly stand out and it goes beyond simply being a 2D game.

[Lucid Dream]

Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Sonic Rush and its sequel has a pretty radical change in level design from the 2D games to compensate for the boost, and its basically the precursor to what the 3D games would become.

When people say they want the 3D games to incorporate 2D gameplay, they mean from Sonic 1-3K and how they played. Every 2D game barring maybe the advance titles has deviated pretty far from what made those games truly stand out and it goes beyond simply being a 2D game.

Exactly my point, Sonic Rush set up the boost system which many 3D games are based off. There hasn't been much of a new system. Also, I wouldn't say Sonic Rush isn't a good 2D game just because it's different, IMO it shines as much than the classics. 

But that's aside from my point. The point is, is that most Sonic 3D games are based off the 2D games, whether it be the boost or classic/advance. I think Sega should try to make a 3D game that is not based off any 2D games, and isn't a strange deviation. Perhaps then they could make a good, stable 3D system.