Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd say an easy solution to that would be to make that happen only for a specific setpiece throughout that entire game. Kinda like how Sonic says "that tornado is carrying a car" only once throughout Sonic 06, just without being captain obvious about it. That kind of thing should be to clue in the player for something to be aware of that might actually affect them at some point.

If they want to alert the player to trouble, the lines could be brief and somewhat vague about it so that it can feel natural without being annoying. A simple "Uh oh," "Shoot," "Look out," "here they come," something like that, but only if it's really something the player should pay attention to -- saying "here they come" every time we see a sole Egg Hammer a mile away, for example, shouldn't be enough to cue a character commenting all the time, but a sandworm like enemy about to pop up after digging somewhere out of view would be a perfect place to keep the player alert.

Just an idea, but I think it's doable. They could even do this for specific scenery without commenting on every little or obvious thing. This kind of thing is done in action-adventure platformers like Ratchet and Clank Future series games when you encounter a new area. see some strange creature or object, or are about to face a hazard, so I don't see how this isn't capable for one like Sonic.

[Pixel]

I'd rather the characters didn't speak to be honest. One of the worst aspects of 3D Sonic titles have been the dialogue and voice acting.

I'd definitely not want to hear Modern Sonic's voice constantly as I play the game. Again, the brilliant Classic Sonic titles give an excellent example of how Sonic should function in 3D. Talking to a minimum or completely removed please.

[Polkadi~☆]

4 minutes ago, Pixel said:

I'd rather the characters didn't speak to be honest. One of the worst aspects of 3D Sonic titles have been the dialogue and voice acting.

I'd definitely not want to hear Modern Sonic's voice constantly as I play the game. Again, the brilliant Classic Sonic titles give an excellent example of how Sonic should function in 3D. Talking to a minimum or completely removed please.

This again?

You keep kicking the recent games in the ass so much, it grew numb to your kicking. We get it, you dislike the new Sonic games, and you've made it painfully clear. You can state your opinion, just don't default to "3D Sonic sucks" every time.

 

I'd like setpiece specific dialogue, and it kind of fits for Sonic. He's witty and cheeky, he'd comment on anything. He could make a comment on the level when idle or at the start, or on the situation at hand, just to hear Sonic's side of things. And he can make quick callouts mid-game, when he encounters a wave of robots or something similar. Something like "Uh oh, more of 'em" or "It's scrapping time!" would be cool. Would prefer they aren't common, though, so they don't get obnoxious quickly. And that it doesn't show up in the subtitles, as it's not required.

I like the idea!

[Blacklightning]

1 hour ago, Pixel said:

I'd rather the characters didn't speak to be honest. One of the worst aspects of 3D Sonic titles have been the dialogue and voice acting.

Ignoring how subjective that is for a moment, could you not just... improve the dialogue and voice acting instead?

[Lucid Dream]

You know what would be really nice? More "show, don't tell".

Sonic games are occasionally really good at doing characters, developing them and having them interact (eg: Sonic Rush). But something that doesn't happen too often is the concept of the characters showing their feelings and ideas without saying it. 

Metal Sonic did this in Sonic Rivals 2 when he saved Shadow by almost destroying himself, and it was one of the greatest points in the story. It showed Metal Sonic was still sentient, and beyond that, he was actually a good person like Sonic. It added depth to him without him saying anything. 

I would like more points like that, where the characters show their feelings instead of constantly saying it. 

[Menace2Society]

As long as the dialogue isn't as obnoxious as it was in Sonic Heroes, I wouldn't mind characters having dialogue in levels. Just make sure to give them lines that are exclusive to each level.

[Mark1]

I always thought that Sonic Colours took a great approach with character dialogue in levels. 

 

[Pixel]

They could improve the dialogue and voice acting theoretically, but they won't. Sonic Team have the writing and dialogue direction abilities of a spoon. They have no idea what they are doing and it would be far safer to just remove this element from the game. And Sonic Team seem to have learn this, seeing as Sonic's games have thankfully trimmed the dialogue as of late.

The story and dialogue isn't needed and it's much better to be playing a game that doesn't have the likely potential to make me cringe every 5 minutes. Boom is an excellent example of how horrible in stage dialogue can (and probably would) be. Regardless, all Sonic games have had terrible dialogue and plots. It's far better to go the story-light route of the Classic Sonic titles.

[Mad Convoy]

11 minutes ago, Pixel said:

The story and dialogue isn't needed and it's much better to be playing a game that doesn't have the likely potential to make me cringe every 5 minutes.

(Emphasis mine)

Pixel, what you don't seem to get is that just because you don't want something, doesn't mean that it can never be good and shouldn't be attempted. I feel like the above statement really shows that well-- forget what other people think, you could potentially hate it so its better off not being there. It carries very strong overtones that you think your opinion is the one that matters most-- Sonic Team shouldn't try to please fans that want story and dialogue, or (gasp horror shock) actually like a fair amount of Sonic stories. There is no compromise either-- you never consider that you could just mute the level dialogue or skip the cutscenes if you don't like them and go play the game, a solution which would leave both story-lovers and non-story-lovers satisfied. And frankly, that's some entitled BS. Though of course, there's also the implication that you don't give any game a chance at all that isn't Classic enough for you, considering that you've written off Gens's physics as broken and bad, and the Boost as a whole as irredeemably hopeless, just because they aren't Classic-perfect. If you want me and the others here to take your arguments seriously, it would be good explain how Gens's physics are bad and how it means that the Boost is hopeless. "But its not Classic Sonic!" won't cut it for me or anybody else here-- you should use only Boost games as a reference when discussing it here.

As for necessity, I think Sonic is at the point where some story is necessary. The plot doesn't have to be very complicated, dark, etc. but it should be there in a larger sense than Sonic 1 or 2. (I didn't mention Sonic 3 because it actually isn't story light as far as I'm concerned, considering how much emphasis it put in establishing and developing Knuckles and his relationship with Eggman, Sonic and Tails. Its just that the story is largely conveyed through gameplay.) I'd like to point out also that in-level dialogue actually has been done right before in Sonic and the Black Knight, where the characters only talked in response to scripted events, for instructions, and if you hit a villager, or if you got a combo. It didn't feel overbearing or overstay its welcome because the lines and voice acting were actually pretty good (and not redundant), Sonic Team knew how to space the dialogue out so the characters weren't talking literally all the time (though they still talk quite a bit-- about 80% of the video below has conversation here), and to keep the responses to the villagers and combos short so they don't overstay their welcome.

Though I suppose the format of Black Knight helps, considering that its levels are pretty short and the gameplay is on rails (which makes it easier to time the dialogue right). But I think Sonic Team could take some cues from it if it wanted to have in-level dialogue-- it does a lot of things right like voice acting, writing, and knowing what makes for good dialogue cues.

[Diogenes]

I'm really getting tired of this trend of shutting down people's opinions when they don't want something as if wanting something is inherently more valid than not wanting it.

[Mad Convoy]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm really getting tired of this trend of shutting down people's opinions when they don't want something as if wanting something is inherently more valid than not wanting it.

Well, I'm getting tired of this trend of not wanting to compromise and just wanting to take stuff out of Sonic because of a false sense of entitlement. And of fans pulling the opinion card whenever somebody gets called out on their BS.

There's a difference between not wanting something, and wanting to deny other people the right to have something. In this case, Pixel is asking for a pretty big part of Sonic (not the most important part, but still critical) to be removed because he happens to dislike it. His reasoning for disliking it is pretty poor, as I explained, and he's acting like his opinion should be lord when there is room for compromise (namely, turning off the dialogue and skipping cutscenes).

I don't see how that's treating wanting something as inherently more valid than not wanting something-- its more treating not wanting to compromise and acting like your opinion is more important than others simply for being yours as being incredibly ill-advised.

[Diogenes]

It's funny how "compromise" has come to mean "I get what I want and you just have to deal with it".

[Mad Convoy]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

It's funny how "compromise" has come to mean "I get what I want and you just have to deal with it".

How did I say that?

That's a pretty big accusation right there, and really passive aggressive. Instead of making vague insults, you should explain what you mean.

[Mark1]

Games like Project 2017, Mania and Boom feel like how Capcom used to treat Mega Man, Mega Man X, etc. as different sub series of the one character.

And that was pretty cool. Going forward I think this is the best approach that they can take. Everyone has their own opinions of each of the games. Keep it that way. 

Personally I like both the Classic and Modern games. They both offer fun yet very different Sonic-like experiences. Do I think both could be improved upon? Fuck yeah I do. And I think they will too.

As much as I enjoyed Generations, they could make so many improvements to the physics and level design. I dislike how often the narrow railways are in this game too (Less automation in platformers!). Assuming this game follows it gameplay wise I want them to fix those issues. Have a feeling they will make Classic Sonic more fun to play his time round.

The Classic series had its problems like too, trial and error enemy and spike placement come to mind. I really hope Mania reduces this occurrence at least. Despite these complaints, I have so much confidence in how much I will love Mania. It's what I wanted SEGA to do after Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

[Hiki]

I don't think they should completely remove the story and dialogue, but instead, they should make all that stuff optional. I remember playing Shadow the Hedgehog (probably a poor example, but the only one I have), and I tried to skip cutscenes, but I couldn't. I was forced to watch cutscenes I didn't wanna rewatch (my game crashed in the middle of Westopolis, so I couldn't actually skip the cutscene I watched.).

What I think is that there should be an option to turn off the in-game voices like Mad Convoy was talking about, AND the ability to skip cutscenes, or heck, even turn them off altogether.

[Jeffhog]

One compromise that comes to mind was how Freedom Planet pulled it off, by providing both a "Story Mode" and "Classic Mode" upfront. If people wanted more plot and dialogue to their adventure, they could play through FP as GalaxyTrail intended, and if they didn't want any extra narrative fluff (and aren't fans of the dialogue/voice acting, which is perfectly understandable) and wanted to focus more on the actual gameplay, they would just play through the stages of FP one after the other... also as GT intended. Everybody wins that way!

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

How did I say that?

That's a pretty big accusation right there, and really passive aggressive. Instead of making vague insults, you should explain what you mean.

Because you're getting self righteous over voice acting and stories that you feel entitled to, and thinking it's a compromise to get exactly what you want and putting the onus on the other side to disable (if it's even possible) or ignore it. Acting like it's selfish and entitled for people to even argue against the thing you want.

[Menace2Society]

Don't a lot of Sonic games already have an option to skip cutscenes? It wouldn't make sense for them to randomly remove that option in this game.

I do agree that they should be an option to turn voices off. Rise of Lyric (only example I got, sorry.) had a lot of annoying dialogue, but it was possible to turn the voices off in the Options menu. It would be a good option for those who find it annoying.

[Mad Convoy]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Because you're getting self righteous over voice acting and stories that you feel entitled to, and thinking it's a compromise to get exactly what you want and putting the onus on the other side to disable (if it's even possible) or ignore it. Acting like it's selfish and entitled for people to even argue against the thing you want.

I'm still really confused on the outrage and how I'm being self-righteous.

What I was saying is that fans are divided on whether Sonic stories should be included. So a good compromise would be to include stories and dialogue, but make them optional. People like me, Ekkusu, and Jeffhog and happy because we get stories (hopefully good ones), people like Pixel are happy because they don't have to get involved the story to play the game. You make it sound like its hard and inconvinient to turn cutscenes and dialogue off-- it really isn't, and I could just as easily argue that Pixel's ideal is thinking that its the best for everybody to get what he wants and putting onus on fans of Sonic stories to write a plot and make cutscenes themselves and mod them into the game-- which is a lot more difficult to pull off successfully than selecting an option on a menu or pressing a button to skip a cutscene. Pixel is arguing a solution that would only make people like himself happy. That, in my eyes, is pretty entitled and selfish.

Its not that he's choosing to disagree with me that's the problem. Its that he's doing so in an entitled, poorly reasoned fashion.

[Mark1]

Alternatively I feel that those who are coming into a Sonic game first hand should be treated to great voice acting and writing. Despite their numerous efforts there still is a lot to be desired. 

I don't feel an option to turn off these things should be an excuse to produce mediocre and cringe-worthy writing. If they are going to do it at least put more effort in.

In other words we need more Eggman VAs  

[Mad Convoy]

1 minute ago, Mark1 said:

Alternatively I feel that those who are coming into a Sonic game first hand should be treated to great voice acting and writing. Despite their numerous efforts there still is a lot to be desired. 

I don't feel an option to turn off these things should be an excuse to produce mediocre and cringy writing. If they are going to do it at least put more effort in.

Definitely! I think there's plenty of room for improvement for Sonic stories-- and very few I'd consider good (enjoyable is another story though). But I think Sonic Team can handle the responsibility-- not every Sonic story is bad (Unleashed comes to mind as being really good, as does Black Knight) and a lot of the story concepts are solid, after all, and that couldn't have come from nowhere.

3 minutes ago, Mark1 said:

In other words we need more Eggman VAs  

shut up and take my yes.

[Diogenes]

Sonic Team should include an erotic visual novel in the next Sonic game. It will be optional, so if you don't want it you can ignore it. But if you say they shouldn't include it, that means you're selfish and entitled, and you think your opinions are worth more than mine.

That's the kind of standard you're setting here. Not arguing that a particular inclusion is worthwhile, just asserting that any optional inclusion is more valid than leaving it out.

[Mad Convoy]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic Team should include an erotic visual novel in the next Sonic game. It will be optional, so if you don't want it you can ignore it. But if you say they shouldn't include it, that means you're selfish and entitled, and you think your opinions are worth more than mine.

That's the kind of standard you're setting here. Not arguing that a particular inclusion is worthwhile, just asserting that any optional inclusion is more valid than leaving it out.

Diogenes, please don't strawman me. I never said that any optional inclusion is more valid that leaving it out-- I'm saying that this particular inclusion of a story is valid.

Sonic games have had stories who lord-knows-how-long, and plenty of people have gotten attached to them. Stories are also pretty important and expected from a modern game. Some people have not, however, gotten attached to stories in Sonic, so rather than leave them out, a good compromise is to make it completely optional. I never even brought up the tone or genre that the story should belong to, so your metaphor falls flat.

[Diogenes]

Some people want this. Some people don't. Therefore we should do what the people who want it want, because the people who don't can ignore it. That's what the argument comes down to, and there's no reason the same logic can't be applied to almost anything else.

[Scar]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Some people want this. Some people don't. Therefore we should do what the people who want it want, because the people who don't can ignore it. That's what the argument comes down to, and there's no reason the same logic can't be applied to almost anything else.

This whole debate has the potential to become hugely circular, considering both sides of the fence argue in pretty much the same way about things they want and things they don't want.