Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Badnik Mechanic]

2 hours ago, Pixel said:

They could improve the dialogue and voice acting theoretically, but they won't. Sonic Team have the writing and dialogue direction abilities of a spoon. 

 

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I'd definitely not want to hear Modern Sonic's voice constantly as I play the game. 

This isn't the same thing...

These are two different complaints which don't really connect. When Sonic or a character talks during a stage. But that's not story issue, it's not even a dialogue issue, well depending on what the specific line is, that's an editing issue and possibly a trigger issue for an SFX file. 

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the story, dialogue or it's delivery.

Case in point is this. Yakuza 3 has a really good story, however, at one point in the game a character follows you around and constant yells " ontai !" (I think that's how you translate boss into Japanese). He does this every time you get X distance from him... which is every few seconds... and it becomes annoying fast. 

But what does that have to do with the wider story? 

Example closer to home, in Shadows game, you know what they say, the more the merrier! That would be fine if it were just given once, but it's triggered every time Eggman summons more robots. Hence why it's problematic. But it in no way impacts the story or the delivery of the line.

Rise of Lyric, for as bad as the story is, the ingame/level dialogue has very little to do with it on the whole, again, majority of it is because a trigger is being called instead of having a cool-down attached to the condition statement. Amy saying "Here's a bounce pad!" yes it's a basic tutorial esq line, but it's delivered fine, and other than the fact she says it every time she sees a bounce pad. What does it have to do with the actual story regardless as to if you like it or not.

 

Also where is this complaint coming from of "Modern Sonics voice" (lolz at the fact you slapped modern in there), other than Heroes and Rise of Lyric and Tails' stages in Sonic Adventure. Where is this a problem?

[Mad Convoy]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Some people want this. Some people don't. Therefore we should do what the people who want it want, because the people won't don't can ignore it. That's what the argument comes down to, and there's no reason the same logic can't be applied to almost anything else.

Diogenes, can you please read over what I've said?

36 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

I'm still really confused on the outrage and how I'm being self-righteous.

What I was saying is that fans are divided on whether Sonic stories should be included. So a good compromise would be to include stories and dialogue, but make them optional. People like me, Ekkusu, and Jeffhog and happy because we get stories (hopefully good ones), people like Pixel are happy because they don't have to get involved the story to play the game. You make it sound like its hard and inconvinient to turn cutscenes and dialogue off-- it really isn't, and I could just as easily argue that Pixel's ideal is thinking that its the best for everybody to get what he wants and putting onus on fans of Sonic stories to write a plot and make cutscenes themselves and mod them into the game-- which is a lot more difficult to pull off successfully than selecting an option on a menu or pressing a button to skip a cutscene. Pixel is arguing a solution that would only make people like himself happy. That, in my eyes, is pretty entitled and selfish.

Its not that he's choosing to disagree with me that's the problem. Its that he's doing so in an entitled, poorly reasoned fashion.

I've explained countless times that I'm referring only to story, which is something that has a significant fan following. Yes, its true that you can't compromise on everything, but really, you can here. What myself and others have proposed is very doable and simple solution. I'm not appreciating how you keep employing these strawmen to try to paint me as self-righteous and intolerant for wanting both story and non-story fans to be satisfied.

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This whole debate has the potential to become hugely circular, considering both sides of the fence argue in pretty much the same way about things they want and things they don't want.

Well, how can I not contribute to a circular debate then? I feel like I'm not being listened to here and I'm running out of ways of getting my point through to him.

[Mark1]

The situation here is I never have found a story in Modern Sonic (SA1 - now) games to be at the standard that they should be, even for a platformer. If they want to include one it needs to be of a certain level of quality.

If they're shit then you will have plenty of complaints about it.

That's why I'm not 100% confident about Project Sonic 2017.

I don't want another Metroid Other M scenario

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Mad Convoy said:

I've explained countless times that I'm referring only to story,

So what makes it different if I apply the same argument to anything else? You're choosing to use the argument for your purposes but the argument itself doesn't discriminate. And if it's an absurd argument in other contexts why is it valid here? You should be able to argue the merits of having a story without shutting people down and calling them entitled for not wanting one.

[Scar]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

So what makes it different if I apply the same argument to anything else? You're choosing to use the argument for your purposes but the argument itself doesn't discriminate. And if it's an absurd argument in other contexts why is it valid here? You should be able to argue the merits of having a story without shutting people down and calling them entitled for not wanting one.

The arguments for not having a story/dialogue so far presented have usually been that so far they've been bad or cringeworthy, or in some extreme cases have been that the classics didn't have stories/dialogue. Sometimes the rather ridiculous argument of "well....mario games don't have stories...." is thrown around as if that actually means something. The latter two aren't really arguments at all, and the former is hugely contentious.

If the stories/dialogue have been bad in the past, why is it better to simply eliminate them?

[Diogenes]

I'm not trying to make the argument that the series shouldn't have stories, I'm pointing out the terrible argument that Convoy made.

[Lucid Dream]

25 minutes ago, Mark1 said:

The situation here is I never have found a story in Modern Sonic (SA1 - now) games to be at the standard that they should be, even for a platformer. If they want to include one it needs to be of a certain level of quality.

If they're shit then you will have plenty of complaints about it.

That's why I'm not 100% confident about Project Sonic 2017.

I don't want another Metroid Other M scenario

I wouldn't say that. Sonics stories are all fairly basic. They usually put more of an emphasis on characters. For example, Sonic Rush has a good story in the sense that it has Blaze and Sonic both develop as characters from their meeting. Sonic Battle has several good stories as well, and also developed several characters well.

Sonic doesn't have that many particularly shit stories. Sure, there's ShtH and Sonic 06, but games like Secret Rings and Black Knight are actually pretty fine in terms of story. A few games even have good stories, like the aforementioned Sonic Rush. 

Spoiler

 if it's an absurd argument in other contexts why is it valid here?

Again, as expected, several people are blowing things out of proportion. There's only 3-4 games where Sonic's voice is constantly annoying. In Sonic Secret Rings, his banter with Shahra is quite entertaining. Seriously, comparing Sonic stories to erotic novels is not only a awful argument, but it's also a silly strawman fallacy. 

Do you think it's fine that fishing was in SA1, even though you technically can skip him? No. 

Do you see how stupid this argument is? Claiming context doesn't matter is stupid, context matters a lot. Sonic is a game that has set ups for stories, I expect some good character development (if they have good writers). It is something Sonic has been for ages. But when has Sonic ever been an erotic novel? 

 And why are we regressing back to "everything that isn't classic Sonic esque is bad" type arguments? 

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You still havn't managed to explain how boost is bad adequately without doing vague statements like "combat is never fun", "It's repetitive", "Stuff like quickstep is everywhere". I would ask you to actually explain yourself properly, but I doubt you will. You'll probably contradict yourself again if I push any further. 

 

[Pixel]

14 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

These are two different complaints which don't really connect. When Sonic or a character talks during a stage. But that's not story issue, it's not even a dialogue issue, well depending on what the specific line is, that's an editing issue and possibly a trigger issue for an SFX file. 

It is a dialogue and voice acting issue. When Sonic shouts "Boost Pad" every 5 seconds, that's a horribly written line that is dreadfully delivered. Same with "Boost Ring", "it's like these levels were made for me" and "I love rings". Part of the problem is how often these lines are used and the pacing of the lines, but dialogue and voice acting certainly plays a role in it. One of the biggest fuck ups in Rise of Lyric was the in game dialogue and a better pacing of the voice lines would have only improved the in game lines by a bit.

18 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

What does it have to do with the actual story regardless as to if you like it or not.

If the characters say annoying as fuck lines constantly through the game then that directly affects how you relate to the characters. When Duke makes quips as he kills his enemies it isn't just isolated voice lines, it feeds into the player's view of Duke. If he was saying "a demon", "I sure love these bullets" and "these levels sure have guns", the comedy would fall horribly flat and no one would relate to him. The question of whether Duke Nukem actually succeeded in making Duke relatable is a different matter, what is important is that the Duke's dialogue is directly tied to his characterisation. 

22 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Also where is this complaint coming from of "Modern Sonics voice" (lolz at the fact you slapped modern in there), other than Heroes and Rise of Lyric and Tails' stages in Sonic Adventure. Where is this a problem?

 Sonic never spoke in the Classic games apart from CD where he barely spoke (2 lines) so it truly was LOLZWORTHY that I refer to Sonic's voice as Modern Sonic. 

I don't like Sonic's voice and many people don't, he sounds really annoying, whiny and squeaky. It's partly related to Modern Sonic's character.

[Jeffhog]

I really hate to jump in on this, but… how is wanting a good (and a toggling/optional) story in a Sonic game that'll likely be rated E10 at best on the same level as wanting an "erotic visual novel," again, for a Sonic game that'll be aimed at an all-encompassing demographic?

 One sounds a whole lot more absurd by default compared to the more reasonable and expected other, Dio. It's just not comparable at all, and that was not the point Mad Convoy was trying to make either – I felt his argument was fine until it was twisted out of context like that.

[Badnik Mechanic]

2 hours ago, Pixel said:

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Can you please list the games and levels in which talking in stages is a problem?

And yes we know about Heroes and Rise of Lyric.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

Again, as expected, several people are blowing things out of proportion. Seriously, comparing Sonic stories to erotic novels is

Not what I'm doing. Not in the way you're imagining it, at least.

1 minute ago, Jeffhog said:

I really hate to jump in on this, but… how is wanting a good (and optional) story in a Sonic game that'll likely be rated E10 at best on the same level as wanting an "erotic visual novel," again, for a Sonic game that'll be aimed at an all-encompassing demographic?

 One sounds a whole lot more absurd by default compared to the more reasonable and expected other, Dio. It's just not comparable at all, and that was not the point Mad Convoy was trying to make either – I felt his argument was fine until it was twisted out of context like that.

By arguing for the inclusion of porn in a Sonic game because it would be optional, I demonstrate the absurdity of defending the inclusion of something simply because it's optional. That a thing is optional should not be used to shut down people's distaste for it, or be used as a reason to call them entitled. If someone is going to argue in favor of including something, they should rely on arguing its merits, not telling people "if you don't like it just ignore it".

[Pixel]

Sonic Adventure 1, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric.

That's more than enough.

Besides, I was directly responding to posts that wanted Sonic to speak more in the levels. Every time Sonic characters have spoken in levels it has been disastrous. So I'd prefer it to stay out.

Also, Diogenes' point is quite simple. Just because you want something you can't complain that others are being mean for not compromising. If I want an optional erotic novel in Sonic and you don't want it, I wouldn't call you mean for not compromising. You don't need to compromise for anything in a game just to be kind. Sonic stories have always been terrible and I don't want to compromise and make them optional because even if they are optional they are still affecting the overall game product. If you don't see the new erotic novel in Sonic '17 that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's still affecting the overall game product.

[Mark1]

6 minutes ago, Lucid Dream said:

I wouldn't say that. Sonics stories are all fairly basic. They usually put more of an emphasis on characters. For example, Sonic Rush has a good story in the sense that it has Blaze and Sonic both develop as characters from their meeting. Sonic Battle has several good stories as well, and also developed several characters well.

Sonic doesn't have that many particularly shit stories. Sure, there's ShtH and Sonic 06, but games like Secret Rings and Black Knight are actually pretty fine in terms of story. A few games even have good stories, like the aforementioned Sonic Rush. 

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 if it's an absurd argument in other contexts why is it valid here?

Again, as expected, several people are blowing things out of proportion. There's only 3-4 games where Sonic's voice is constantly annoying. In Sonic Secret Rings, his banter with Shahra is quite entertaining. Seriously, comparing Sonic stories to erotic novels is not only a awful argument, but it's also a silly strawman fallacy. 

Do you think it's fine that fishing was in SA1, even though you technically can skip him? No. 

Do you see how stupid this argument is? Claiming context doesn't matter is stupid, context matters a lot. Sonic is a game that has set ups for stories, I expect some good character development (if they have good writers). It is something Sonic has been for ages. But when has Sonic ever been an erotic novel? 

 And why are we regressing back to "everything that isn't classic Sonic esque is bad" type arguments? 

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You still havn't managed to explain how boost is bad adequately without doing vague statements like "combat is never fun", "It's repetitive", "Stuff like quickstep is everywhere". I would ask you to actually explain yourself properly, but I doubt you will. You'll probably contradict yourself again if I push any further. 

 

I don't want to go off topic but I want to clarify that I have enjoyed some of these stories. Ironically the two you mentioned I quite enjoyed too  I just want them to be better. 

Sonic 3&K I felt did the stories best but some of the modern ones did a decent job. Not amazing, just ranging from average to decent. I want something better than just decent  

One thing i want from this game.

[Lucid Dream]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Not what I'm doing. Not in the way you're imagining it, at least.

By arguing for the inclusion of porn in a Sonic game because it would be optional, I demonstrate the absurdity of defending the inclusion of something simply because it's optional. That a thing is optional should not be used to shut down people's distaste for it, or be used as a reason to call them entitled. If someone is going to argue in favor of including something, they should rely on arguing its merits, not telling people "if you don't like it just ignore it".

And look, Here's is all the hypocrisy again.

Is it wrong of me to think that you can try reading more than 2 lines? 

Here, let me repeat myself for you

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Do you think it's fine that fishing was in SA1, even though you technically can skip him? No. 

Do you see how stupid this argument is? Claiming context doesn't matter is stupid, context matters a lot. Sonic is a game that has set ups for stories, I expect some good character development (if they have good writers). It is something Sonic has been for ages. But when has Sonic ever been an erotic novel?

Really, I don't think you are in the position to criticise others arguments. You've done far worse, such as personal attacks, in respose to a fair criticism on Sonic Colours story (that it's underwhelming and anti-climatic). 

[Pixel]

The point is just because something is optional that doesn't mean it's exempt from criticism. In fact, Freedom Planet, which someone referred to, was still criticised for its terrible plot despite being optional.

[Menace2Society]

I'm not really expecting much of a story, other than the fact it'll probably be more serious than the last few games' stories. I'm sure it'll be decent, but nothing special. Stories in Sonic games aren't really a big deal for me, since I always felt that the games are more about the gameplay than the story, anyways.

 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Lucid Dream said:

*words*

What in the hell are you even saying.

[Lucid Dream]

Just now, Diogenes said:

What in the hell are you even saying.

I literally just repeated myself. 

Is it really so hard to understand that context matters?

[Pixel]

Lucid, the point is that something isn't exempt from criticism just because it's optional. Also, no one owes a compromise to anything, even if its a series staple. I don't like stories in Sonic and don't need to meet you halfway on the matter. In the same way, if a new game that resembled Adventure came out, you wouldn't have to compromise on the art style and meet me halfway for a Classic aesthetic.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Lucid Dream said:

I literally just repeated myself. 

Is it really so hard to understand that context matters?

I've never said otherwise.

[Marcello]

I will not stand for criticism of SA1's level dialogue. Nothing will ever top "Oh no!" or "Goodbye, Tails" *1 second later* "Tails, wait for me!" or "Hey hey hey!".

[Hiki]

15 minutes ago, Pixel said:

It is a dialogue and voice acting issue. When Sonic shouts "Boost Pad" every 5 seconds, that's a horribly written line that is dreadfully delivered. Same with "Boost Ring", "it's like these levels were made for me" and "I love rings". Part of the problem is how often these lines are used and the pacing of the lines, but dialogue and voice acting certainly plays a role in it. One of the biggest fuck ups in Rise of Lyric was the in game dialogue and a better pacing of the voice lines would have only improved the in game lines by a bit.

I can understand that you don't like the annoying, repetitive lines from RoL, but that's not really a great example. Other than Adventure, Heroes, RoL, and Shadow, have there actually been games that use repetitive lines?

Speaking of the voice acting, I think a change of voice actors would be needed. I don't like Roger's Sonic voice at all. :/

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If the characters say annoying as fuck lines constantly through the game then that directly affects how you relate to the characters. When Duke makes quips as he kills his enemies it isn't just isolated voice lines, it feeds into the player's view of Duke. If he was saying "a demon", "I sure love these bullets" and "these levels sure have guns", the comedy would fall horribly flat and no one would relate to him. The question of whether Duke Nukem actually succeeded in making Duke relatable is a different matter, what is important is that the Duke's dialogue is directly tied to his characterisation.  

I can agree there.

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Sonic never spoke in the Classic games apart from CD where he barely spoke (2 lines) so it truly was LOLZWORTHY that I refer to Sonic's voice as Modern Sonic.

I don't think that really matters at all. If it's Modern Sonic speaking, then it should be considered Modern Sonic's voice. If it's Classic Sonic speaking, it should be Classic Sonic's voice. Even if he didn't speak much, there's no need to consider Classic Sonic's voice to be the same as Modern's voice.

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I don't like Sonic's voice and many people don't, he sounds really annoying, whiny and squeaky. It's partly related to Modern Sonic's character.

When you say he sounds annoying, whiny, and squeaky, are you just talking about Roger's voice? Because that's understandable. If you're talking about Jason Griffith's Unleashed voice, or Ryan Drummond's voice, then I don't see how he sounds whiny and squeaky. In Heroes and 4kids' Sonic X, sure, I understand how he sounds annoying. I even tried to change the voice option on Heroes to Japanese (well, tbh, I do that with every Japanese game, unless I can't.), but I couldn't unless I changed the entire language to Japanese.

[Pixel]

In my opinion, having bad in-game dialogue in four games is enough to start thinking about not doing that again.

And yes, the in game dialogue in Adventure (and even Shadow) is funny in an ironic nostalgic way, but let's be honest, it's terrible. I wouldn't really want to see that standard continue.

[Menace2Society]

I'd rather have Roger Craig Smith to continue voicing Sonic than having Ryan Drummond come back to voice him.

Just saying.

[Lucid Dream]

41 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And if it's an absurd argument in other contexts why is it valid here? 

So here you claim that context is irrelevant.

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I've never said otherwise.

And now you say that context is important. I'm getting tired of this. 

Getting back on topic

17 minutes ago, Mark1 said:

Sonic 3&K I felt did the stories best but some of the modern ones did a decent job. Not amazing, just ranging from average to decent. I want something better than just decent  

One thing i want from this game.

I don't know about Sonic 3&K, but I do agree that Sonic doesn't have amazing stories. I mean, sure it would be great if that happened. But personally, I'm more than ok with simple plots and nice character development/interaction. If the dialogue becomes more consistantly good, than I think Sonic would be have good stories. A good plot would be awsome though.