Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Marcello]

It's been years since I've played it, but I remember Sonic's and Caliburn's banter being pretty decent.

[FriendBot]

The Storybook series did have great in-game dialogue and quite frankly, the banter between characters in Rise of Lyric was just as good.

[Kfarc]

15 minutes ago, Mark1 said:

I personally find it hard to believe players could get used to the constant chat whenever Sonic boosted in Unleashed. Something both Colours and Generations did fix, making him far more tolerable. 

 

Well, I find it kinda cool. It gives this energy into his character and, if you know what you're doing, you won't hear it often. 

And, well, it makes sense for Sonic to keep talking to himself. Because he's awesome and he knows that. Also it can shorten a cut-scenes when I look back at it. It would allow to keep the game story flow.

[Mark1]

9 minutes ago, Kfarc said:

Well, I find it kinda cool. It gives this energy into his character and, if you know what you're doing, you won't hear it often. 

And, well, it makes sense for Sonic to keep talking to himself. Because he's awesome and he knows that. Also it can shorten a cut-scenes when I look back at it. It would allow to keep the game story flow.

Oh no if you like it thats fine was just my opinion as I find the constant 'Woo!' grating when I go back to the game.  

Thats partially why I find Colours and Gens more appealing

[Menace2Society]

I'm not sure if this is true, since it's been a while since it's been a while since I last played it, but I hear you were able to turn off the voices in Unleashed if you didn't want them on.

Again, can't confirm this, though, since I only heard you could, and I never tried did check to see if you could at the time.

[JezMM]

I'm fine with voices during levels, but only adhereing to strict rules:

 

• Every line of dialogue written for a specific context (something other than general action grunts, woos and yeahs, etc) should have multiple variations.  Each variation should have multiple deliveries.  As a bare minimum, something like 3-5 different lines and 2-3 deliveries of each one, for a total of 6-15 possible things that Sonic can say at that point.

For example:

1. "That Tornado's carrying a car!  /  "Is that Tornado carrying a car!?"  /  "What the heck, that tornado is flinging cars around!"
2. "I better be careful, the tornado ahead is throwing all sorts of debris around."  /  "Gotta watch myself if I don't want to get hit by the debris that tornado is throwing."
3. "I can't believe how much of the city that tornado has destroyed..." / "The destruction that tornado has caused is unbelievable."
4. "Can you imagine a world where this sort of devastation wasn't an every day occurance...?" / "I can't even IMAGINE what life was like before this sort of thing happened every day."

• Voice acting should never be used as telegraphing for gameplay mechanics.  No "GET A LOAD OF THIS" every time Eggman does a particular attack - use sound effects or - even better for the audio impaired - visual effects instead.
• Lines don't get repeated during a single play session under any circumstance.  If you die a bunch of times on a boss and the entire cache of dialogue for that boss is exhausted, the characters stop talking beyond generic grunts and yells.
• Said grunts and yells can repeat naturally, but should have a VAST pool of variations.

I feel if you can't meet the above conditions due to time or budget or other priorities, you shouldn't bother with much in-gameplay dialogue at all if any.  Do it properly or not at all, don't half-ass it.

And naturally, voicework during gameplay should be togglable in the options menu, though you'd hope if it was well done enough, few would want to.  Also mix the sound properly - don't dim the music and sound effects every time a character speaks, and if you MUST, remember to disable this when voice volume is turned down or in-level voices are turned off entirely (even with voices turned off, Sonic Lost World PC still dims the music when the cliché six should be vomiting their boring jokes over Acts 2 and 4 of each zone).

As a final nitpick - subtitles for gameplay dialogue should be clear and easy to read for the audio impaired.  I feel bad for deaf players who played Sonic Heroes - constant talking while you try to focus on the gameplay with no indication of who is saying what line whatsoever.  Preferrably you could have three settings - regular subtitles to aid those who just want clarification on the audio they're hearing, off for those who don't want them, and subtitles for the audio impaired that could include coloured text bubbles or character heads to signify who is speaking, as well as include captions for important sound effects.

 

 

Of course, the fact that even well-loved franchises and developers can't get this right (listening to my wife play the latest Jak and Daxter game and hearing the exact same repeated lines every time she attempted each boss battle drove me mad and I wasn't even playing it) gives me no hope for Sonic Team, but the above is the dream - for any game frankly, not just Sonic.

To give credit where it's due, I DO think the care towards the quality of voice acting in Sonic has increased over the years for the most part, it's the execution that is the biggest problem.

[FantasticMrRobb]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

How many examples of well-written, not-annoying character chatter are there in the series? Doesn't make much sense to scoff at "only four" when it's pretty much every time the series has tried it.

I think it just depends on what you consider well-written and not.

[StaticMania]

There was a solid 2 out of 6 times where near constant voice chatter wasn't annoying, that's good enough.

[Wraith]

I don't want in game chatter if it's anything like pretty much any time they've tried it. As Jez said, put some good writers on it and WORK WITH THEM so the characters react to what's going on in fun ways and aren't throwing out stock garbage lines. If that sounds difficult,  just don't do it. None of the new Sonic games have it, so I'm guessing they decided to be sensible and admit it wasn't worth pursuing

[StaticMania]

They've done both every time. Stock lines and comments on what's happening in the level...the only thing people don't want is the former. 

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

They've done both every time. Stock lines and comments on what's happening in the level...the only thing people don't want is the former. 

The writing and performances have to be  good too.  We haven't really gotten there yet

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Wraith said:

The writing and performances have to be  good too.  We haven't really gotten there yet

That's debatable, as are so many things amongst this and many other fanbases.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Undyne Phoenix said:

That's debatable, as are so many things amongst this and many other fanbases.

I mean, I guess, but this series didn't get mocked for years for it's  voice acting to the point that they changed the cast and direction for no reason.

[Dr. Detective]

Well, if the discussion is about the hopes for the narrative concerning Project 2017, I have a few things I wish to talk about.

So, I just randomly turned on my TV and decided to watch some random episodes of Sonic X. Seeing Tails fight Eggman and Shadow talking with Rouge about "plot" stuff is making me get excited all on its own.The back of my mind is telling me this 4Kids dialogue specifically isn't anything super well written on it's own yet seeing my favorite characters interact within a narrative that's demanding movement and urgency from them all always manages to hypnotize and draw me in regardless. I've been super starved for some more substance to come out of these stories myself, even if they aren't technically the best the world has to offer. What do I view as "substance" though? 

A plot can often come off as a lot more complicated when the characters are actually doing things despite the initial plot synopsis being relatively simple. A plot like "I kidnapped your friends, come and save them by running through the levels" gets increasingly more interesting when the obstacles they face create twists and turns within the narrative. One of the strongest things I feel a story of this type could have is if the villain remains active in trying to thwart the efforts of our heroes as the story goes on. Even better when outside variables come into play and start screwing things up.

My favorite story bit in all of Sonic media comes from the section of Prison Island during Adventure 2. There's so many characters scrambled about the place, trying to accomplish different things and it's amazing seeing them all come together with the added benefit of having a fallout behind how one event affects another. It sounds complicated and may even trick people into believing it is, but the fact remains that it isn't. You're really just having people do things differently from each other rather then having them all do the exact same thing (or in Generations' case, have them do nothing at all).

Hero Story: Sonic's in prison, the objective is to save him.

Dark Story: The island has a chaos emerald. The objective is to steal it and also blow the island up for the Eggman Lolz.

Tails illegally enters the island and immediately crosses the path of the dark story by getting in Eggman's way. Because they both have different goals in mind and are on different sides, they clash and have a fight. Instantly, the bad guys have a wrench in their story that complicates the matter, because Eggman has been delayed. Rouge now has to accomplish her mission quicker and because of that, there's an even bigger time crunch when an outside variable comes in. The outside variable is the island they invaded acting up and being an unrelenting third party that counteracts what both sides have come to do. In Rouge's case, the Flying Dog is sent in to stop her.

On the Heroes' side, Tails simply has to break in and let Amy drop by the prison to let Sonic free. So now Sonic is free and he goes to escape. From here the story has an opportunity to make Sonic's escape suffer another complication. Rather then just have him complete the level and throw in a pointless boss to fight without making any sort of big deal about what he's doing, I rather like the aspect that the two sides of the conflict converge again with Shadow coming across Sonic here. The two of them have their little fight but the time issue is an even stronger acting force now because the island is still about to blow up. So Shadow has to cut it short to save Rouge while Sonic has to reach Amy and Tails in order to escape. They do and the island blows up and it's awesome!

Ultimately what happened there isn't all too intricate. It really just entailed giving each character their own specific task to complete, regardless of what side they were on, and then having them intersect at the appropriate moments to create conflict. The added benefit of having the island provide it's own danger changed up what certain characters had to do at a given time and allowed them to move about the place to artificially and comfortably create separate acts for this little mini arc.

A good deal of what allowed that to pan out the way it did is the added benefit of being able to play as all those characters, for sure. That's part of the reason why I desire other characters to be made playable again. However, this obviously isn't to say this can only be achieved by following the eyes of multiple characters. There are several different types of narratives out there. Stories with variables like this can still work when controlling a single character. I've been reading through the Hunger Games recently and it dawned on me how impressive and complex a lot of the characters still ended up being despite the story being told in a first-person point of view from the eyes of one girl. 

Taking what you've got and making the best of it by utilizing different ways to tell stories sounds like it'd be a really awesome experiment. The kind of experiment that, at this point, would be well worth trying out for the sake of seeing how it panned out in my opinion. In order for it to be a "good" story, it doesn't even really need to be the best written or have a middle-grounded tone (despite that being my preference), I just like seeing the characters actually do stuff and for things to happen and change as a result of the decisions they've made. 

[Pixel]

In my ideal hope, Sonic '17 will feature a very light story and focus solely on Sonic's fight against Eggman. I also hope Classic Sonic is closer to the true Classic Sonic as represented in the Classic Sonic titles. In Generations he was too cuddly and cute, something I fear will carry over in Sonic '17 (as the trailer presented him that way). I mean, he was cute in Generations, but I would rather have the REAL awesome Classic Sonic than Generations Classic Sonic.

I also liked the way the trailer had no dialogue. Hopefully the game follows suit. One thing Generations actually did right was make Classic Sonic silent and convey his character through expressions. If the whole of Sonic '17 followed that suite, I predict good things.

The best Sonic story as far as I'm concerned is Sonic CD, an awesome Classic Sonic title that really captured a dark atmosphere. Sonic '17 would do best to follow in its shadow.

[Darinian]

7 minutes ago, Pixel said:

. In Generations he was too cuddly and cute, something I fear will carry over in Sonic '17 (as the trailer presented him that way). I mean, he was cute in Generations, but I would rather have the REAL awesome Classic Sonic than Generations Classic Sonic.
 

I don't think they can really get the awesome classic sonic you want without him frowning all the time or by smiling with an eyebrow up a lot.

 

9 minutes ago, Pixel said:

10 minutes ago, Pixel said:

In my ideal hope, Sonic '17 will feature a very light story and focus solely on Sonic's fight against Eggman. 

The best Sonic story as far as I'm concerned is Sonic CD, an awesome Classic Sonic title that really captured a dark atmosphere. Sonic '17 would do best to follow in its shadow.

Dude this is a modern sonic game, where sonic talks, makes a couple quips, and optionally has tails to follow him. How is sonic team gonna just forget all of this and have sonic run through the whole game silent and have sonic pantomime some cutscenes of "sonic looks up, sees eggman, looks straight again and starts running."

[Pixel]

Sure, it's a Modern Sonic game, but Sonic Team can still be brave and go for a more subtle and silent approach. And silent, minimalist plots don't have to be pantomimes, look at ICO or Shadow of Colossus. Sonic would massively benefit from a similar silent but dark atmosphere. Especially Sonic '17.

Also, it's more in line with Sonic CD, which should set the example as a Classic Sonic game.

[Darinian]

3 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sure, it's a Modern Sonic game, but Sonic Team can still be brave and go for a more subtle and silent approach. And silent, minimalist plots don't have to be pantomimes, look at ICO or Shadow of Colossus. Sonic would massively benefit from a similar silent but dark atmosphere. Especially Sonic '17.

Also, it's more in line with Sonic CD, which should set the example as a Classic Sonic game.

Yeah, they're being brave and making mania

[Mark1]

15 minutes ago, Pixel said:

In my ideal hope, Sonic '17 will feature a very light story and focus solely on Sonic's fight against Eggman. I also hope Classic Sonic is closer to the true Classic Sonic as represented in the Classic Sonic titles. In Generations he was too cuddly and cute, something I fear will carry over in Sonic '17 (as the trailer presented him that way). I mean, he was cute in Generations, but I would rather have the REAL awesome Classic Sonic than Generations Classic Sonic.

I also liked the way the trailer had no dialogue. Hopefully the game follows suit. One thing Generations actually did right was make Classic Sonic silent and convey his character through expressions. If the whole of Sonic '17 followed that suite, I predict good things.

The best Sonic story as far as I'm concerned is Sonic CD, an awesome Classic Sonic title that really captured a dark atmosphere. Sonic '17 would do best to follow in its shadow.

TBH if the game still features a light story despite that teaser, it wouldn't surprise me. The current Sonic Team in my mind do know how previous plots turned out in the 'edgy' phase.

Since Classic Sonic is here I'm pretty sure it's another time travel story (duh). As I mentioned a while back though, it'd be pretty cool if the plot was for Modern Sonic to go back in time to fix time Eggman may have created where he won, but runs into Classic Sonic who'd agree to help him save the future. Something similar to Sonic CD. 

Imagine if the stages were so expansive for the sole purpose of destroying the Robot Generators to create a good future. 

Not going to lie. I would LOVE that. How about a Metal Sonic race as a tribute to that game?  

[Menace2Society]

Classic Sonic always looked kind cute to me, even before Generations, tbh, at least with the Japanese artwork. Look at some of these images

Spoiler

I guess if they wanted to him to look cool, they could use his American design, but I don't think a lot of people want to see that design again, hehe.

Idk. Could just be me. It's not like he can't be cool and cute at the same time.

[Mark1]

5 minutes ago, CuzEyeCan said:

Classic Sonic always looked kind cute to me, even before Generations, tbh, at least with the Japanese artwork. Look at some of these images

  Reveal hidden contents

I guess if they wanted to him to look cool, they could use his American design, but I don't think a lot of people want to see that design again, hehe.

Idk. Could just be me. It's not like he can't be cool and cute at the same time.

Felt that he was a hybrid of cute and cocky. I felt Modern Sonic kind of took some of that away but not a problem since Classic is still awesome.

His design is down and is here to stay. Maybe just be a wee bit more badass but no big deal. Mania so far has nailed him down.

[StaticMania]

They can't use his American design for plenty of reasons. Most obvious being that the mohawk would look friggin' ridiculous in a 3D graphics setting.

[FriendBot]

Frankly, making Classic Sonic cute is a necessary evil. 

I mean, while both Modern and Classic are pretty much the same Sonic but my (messed up and totally wrong) mindset is telling me that if you make Classic Sonic as cool as Modern but I'm trying to rebut that by trying to see how you could make Classic Sonic look more cooler than what he looks like outside of the Classic games without compromising Modern's cool but nothing really comes to mind.

Spoiler

besides i'm wrong anyway so who cares lol

 

[JezMM]

I personally found Classic way too cute, I didn't really feel like I was looking at the same Sonic I played as in Sonic 1-3, but rather "Sonic as a kid" the whole time.  In the actual gameplay he felt a little closer, but when the cut-scenes and end of stage screens showed up, the cuteness went into overdrive.  And like, yeah, he WAS cute and appealing, but just not the classic Sonic I see in the spritework of old.

2 hours ago, Pixel said:

Sure, it's a Modern Sonic game, but Sonic Team can still be brave and go for a more subtle and silent approach. And silent, minimalist plots don't have to be pantomimes, look at ICO or Shadow of Colossus. Sonic would massively benefit from a similar silent but dark atmosphere. Especially Sonic '17.

Also, it's more in line with Sonic CD, which should set the example as a Classic Sonic game.

I really don't think Ico or SotC can be relevant examples of voiceless games for Sonic (especially since... both contained dialogue didn't they, just spoken in a fictional language?).  And I think the silent style of the classics would severely limit any scope for telling a complex story with character development and such.  It could still be done of course, look at Sonic 3 & Knuckles, but that story and character development is only complex FOR A classic Sonic game.  It is very VERY simple in terms of storytelling in general.

I like the extended cast of the modern Sonic games and their vocal interactions, and I want to see them improved rather than simplified down.  If I was to compare an existing game to the kind of tone I'd love Sonic to have (especially Sonic 2017), my example instead would be Beyond Good and Evil.  A game with incredibly stylised, cartooney characters who are totally larger than life in their personalities - but still excellently written and acted, full of warmth and heart, with a real feeling they've gone through a full life of experiences to get to where they are, and a feeling of true friendship, trust and love between them as the plot puts them to their paces - with plenty of exciting moments, funny moments, and downright crushing defeats along the way, but even at the darkest points, a constant sense of optimism and hope against all the oppressive odds thrown at them.  From the tone that 2017's trailer sets, Beyond Good and Evil's style would be a lofty but, I think, perfect goal to try and achieve.

[Pixel]

Sonic was always cute in the Classics but he became a cuddly baby teddy bear in Sonic Generations. He was adorable but he wasn't the legendary Sonic from the true Classic Sonic titles.

I'm hoping they manage to recapture the real Classic Sonic in '17. Classic Sonic in Generations is simply a pale imitation of the awesome Classic Sonic. Hopefully we can see the real Classic Sonic in '17!