Jump to content
Awoo.

Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"


Badnik Mechanic

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Pixel said:

They've never made a plot that doesn't fall into either category. And yes, they could technically knock it out the park next time, but why risk it when they've consistently fucked up for nearly 20 years.

It's a waste of time, personnel, money and general game development resources.

Yeah but if the get it rightmaxresdefault.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pixel, what you seem not to get is that not everybody see the stories the way you do. You haven't properly addressed the people who like Unleashed's story, who like SA1/SA2's story, who like Colors DS's story, who like Boom TV, etc. They aren't hoping for a miracle like you claim-- they're arguing for Sega to do something like it did in the past and has thus demonstrated capability of succeeding at. While you have the right to dislike all 3D Sonic stories and argue it reasonably, you don't have the right to just dismiss everybody else's feelings and take away (easily skippable) stuff solely on the basis of you not liking it. Which, now that I mention it, you really haven't argued it reasonably. Your reasoning boils down to "Sonic stories are bad because they are bad and not Classic. Things that are not Classic are embarrassing because they are embarrassing." And that type of recursive logic and purism won't cut it on SSMB.

Dimps is a subsidiary of Sonic Team, so Sonic Team did make Sonic 4. Sega approved the project. And neither would have happened if Sega and Sonic Team didn't have any interest in making Classic work.

Besides, I could say the same about so many elements of Sonic. I could claim that the only character that Sonic has ever gotten right in 3D is Sonic and Eggman, that every other character is redundant as they all either fill the general role of the villain or the hero, and thus they should be the only characters around. I could claim that Sonic always gets enemy placement wrong, therefore Sonic should never use enemies. Sonic also tends to get physics wrong, so we should just save myself the embarrassment and cut out the physics of Sonic. Heck, why not just cut most of the gameplay elements and design out (since Sonic has screwed up those too) and have Sonic and Eggman run around on a flat plane for the whole game-- its the least risky option of all! Or, we could take the sensible route and assess each's pros and cons, and try to improve those things so they do fit the standards. I know my examples might sound a little extreme, but I'm simply taking your idea of "why risk it when they've consistently fucked up for nearly 20 years." to its logical conclusion.

  • Thumbs Up 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My agenda? Classic Sonic is fucking awesome, it single handedly saved SEGA from Nintendo. Sonic was on the top of the world, he even overshadowed Mickey Mouse.

What has 3D Sonic brought us? Cringey plots, buggy games, bad gameplay and Sonic's reputation through the mud.

I would feel so much better if the glorious Classic formula simply ran it's course. If Classic Sonic was translated into 3D and the game simply faded in popularity. But no, that never even happened. As soon as Adventure came out, the mainstray titles dumped Classic Sonic at the height of its popularity. Even worse, the spinoff games that were actually rooted in Classic Sonic (Sonic Advance and Mania) actually ended up far eclipsing the mainstray titles in terms of reputation.

So yes, I have an agenda. I have an agenda for the brilliant Classic Sonic formula that was dropped at the top of its popularity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I say only 5 modern titles were considered " objectively bad"? 06, Lost World, Shadow, Free Riders and RoL? Out of how many modern games? (Judging by fan reception)

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic Team's formula of dreadful, melodramatic plots. Well, either that or godawful comedy that even the majority of fans hate.

They've never made a plot that doesn't fall into either category. And yes, they could technically knock it out the park next time, but why risk it when they've consistently fucked up for nearly 20 years.

It's a waste of time, personnel, money and general game development resources.

Sonic Heroes' story isn't melodramatic or a comedy. It may still be pretty dreadful in some ways, but it's not melodramatic or a comedy, so it doesn't fit into the formula you just established, and if you expand the formula to "writing bad stories in general", well...clearly, that's not a "formula".

Also, Sonic games have had a pretty bad time with having physics as great as the classics' for a long time, and yet, I have a feeling you would still want them to try at that (tell me if I'm wrong about that, but they are a big component of the classic titles, so I'm assuming you care about them). Why is it so hard to understand that stories is important to people and they want Sega to try and get it right, just like (I would venture to guess) you care about them getting physics right?

Also, I like how everything is all or nothing to you, and Sonic Adventure is practically in an entirely different series from the classic titles, even if Sonic's gameplay in SA clearly has many similarities to a 3D translation of the classics' gameplay even if some things weren't implemented that well.

  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Apple Miki said:

Can I say only 5 modern titles were considered " objectively bad"? 06, Lost World, Shadow, Free Riders and RoL? Out of how many modern games? (Judging by fan reception)

This, although I would replace Lost World with Secret Rings or Black Knight. (Never played Black Knight, and haven't played Secret Rings in years, but they aren't talked about nicely. Lost World isn't as hated as those games from what I gathered.)

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course I want the pinball physics of the glorious Classic Sonic titles back. And it's not the Sonic Team have tried to implement them and have failed, they've just neglected them and left them by the side (outside of maybe the early Adventure prototypes). That's what's irritating. Who's to know what would happen if they actually tried to implement them.

It's not like that with the stories. They have very actively tired to make stories and have always fucked it up.

Sonic Adventure is completely different to the Classics. The art style and gameplay is completely removed from the Classic philosophy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Dimps is a subsidiary of Sonic Team, so Sonic Team did make Sonic 4. Sega approved the project. And neither would have happened if Sega and Sonic Team didn't have any interest in making Classic work.

Dimps, is more like an contractor, they recently just released Xenoverse 2.

 

3 minutes ago, Pixel said:

I would feel so much better if the glorious Classic formula simply ran it's course. If Classic Sonic was translated into 3D and the game simply faded in popularity. But no, that never even happened. As soon as Adventure came out, the mainstray titles dumped Classic Sonic at the height of its popularity. Even worse, the spinoff games that were actually rooted in Classic Sonic (Sonic Advance and Mania) actually ended up far eclipsing the mainstray titles in terms of reputation.

you have no research-history behind Adventure 1, do you? especially about the Saturn's, and Dreamcast's graphical specs. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Pixel said:

My agenda? Classic Sonic is fucking awesome, it single handedly saved SEGA from Nintendo. Sonic was on the top of the world, he even overshadowed Mickey Mouse.

What has 3D Sonic brought us? Cringey plots, buggy games, bad gameplay and Sonic's reputation through the mud.

...you do realize gameplay styles and narrative styles aren't one in the same, right? They aren't innately linked or anything - you can have a crap plot in a classic game just as much as you can have a good one in a modern game. Fair enough if you want to keep the focus on gameplay, I absolutely agree - but like I said earlier, writers and programmers are not one in the same. Asking for better gameplay is in no way a burden to people who aren't actually responsible for it, so there's really no reason you can't do both to some reasonable extent.

  • Thumbs Up 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Adventure games still kinda play like the classic games. You can actually roll down a hill. It's fun!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The narrative and gameplay are directly related though. The game's levels and pace are all dictated by the plot.

If the plot and game design departments didn't communicate then the game would be a mess. Moreover, the art style and ambience of the game's levels are directly impacted by the tone of the story.

Most people greatly underestimate how difficult it is to weave a plot into a game. It's not simply a case of hiring a few writers and translators.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sonic Adventure is a terrible game for reasons that hardly need to be explained. Awful plot, terrible voice acting, horrendous controls, bad camera, glitchy and buggy throughout, dreadful boss fights and a generally poor presentation and animation quality. It's like the textbook of how to fuck up a 3D game in a landscape that brought us Banjo Kazooie and Spyro the Dragon.

The games that followed Adventure suffered from very similar issues.

I don't see why we should fall to such a lower standard when the Classic Sonic formula was dropped right at the top of its popularity and success.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

on animation quality, let's not forget the game was made in 1998 and was the first 3D Sonic title for the DC. It doesn't excuse the camera but still. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Pixel said:

I would feel so much better if the glorious Classic formula simply ran it's course. If Classic Sonic was translated into 3D and the game simply faded in popularity. But no, that never even happened. As soon as Adventure came out, the mainstray titles dumped Classic Sonic at the height of its popularity.

How can four years after Sonic & Knuckles came out be considered "the height of Classic Sonic's popularity"?

13 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic Adventure is completely different to the Classics. The art style and gameplay is completely removed from the Classic philosophy.

Forgetting about characters other than Sonic and forgetting about the art style for a moment, can the gameplay really be considered completely different? It's still fast platforming with practically the very same moveset other than adding the homing attack, and there's still a lot running (and even rolling if you prefer, you can still roll and spindash!) on slopey terrain and some fairly similar environmental structures. It's certainly not perfect, don't get me wrong, and it's not consistent with the classics in every department by any means, but "completely removed"? That's an exaggeration at best, if you ask me.

Being more flawed than the classics doesn't mean it's completely divorced from their design philosophy. It just means the game needs to do what it does better.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic Adventure is a terrible game for reasons that hardly need to be explained.

dreadful boss fights

Wait, which Boss Fights are we talking about?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sonic Adventure is completely different to the glorious Classic titles.

The Classic Sonic titles were fundamentally platform titles that featured expansive level design and encouraged both exploration and mastering the mechanics of Sonic's movements to clear the levels as fast as possible. Sonic Adventure however, is entirely a spectacle and doesn't have levels that are designed for or encourage fast platforming or exploration, committing a cardinal sin of the Classic Sonic game design. There's barely any platforming in Adventure, it's almost all just running along a straight line while admiring the scenery and running through boost pads. Sonic Adventure sometimes even pauses the action entirely on a 'wow' setpiece. These sections involve no real gameplay whatsoever and simply hope to show off Sonic's speed in a cheap marketing bid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think all and all, SEGA is trying and with this new game they seem very proud of this creation. Sonic also likes to experiment with different styles so I am looking forward to this new mechanic and how it flows in with the modern gameplay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Pixel said:

The narrative and gameplay are directly related though. The game's levels and pace are all dictated by the plot.

You're missing the point. Of course several departments still have to cooperate to make a singular product, that goes without saying - but they can still be good or bad completely independently of each other, and they can improve completely independently of each other. More to the point, a focus on one still doesn't innately come at the other's expense. Particularly because most of the core ideas for the game are handled in its conceptual state anyway, so by the time the writers can focus on dialogue and cutscenes the designers and programmers already have more than enough material to base levels and gameplay mechanics around them anyway.

  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Sonictrainer said:

Wait, which Boss Fights are we talking about?

this is what i would like to know, 

their way better than the ones in Mario 64, simply because that game, barely had any, or had boring fights in general. (don't get me started on the Bowser fights either, even as an kid, i hated trying to throw him to an bomb across an pit) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Pixel said:

Sonic Adventure is completely different to the glorious Classic titles.

The Classic Sonic titles were fundamentally platform titles that featured expansive level design and encouraged both exploration and mastering the mechanics of Sonic's movements to clear the levels as fast as possible. Sonic Adventure however, is entirely a spectacle and doesn't have levels that are designed for or encourage fast platforming or exploration, committing a cardinal sin of the Classic Sonic game design. There's barely any platforming in Adventure, it's almost all just running along a straight line while admiring the scenery and running through boost pads. Sonic Adventure sometimes even pauses the action entirely on a 'wow' setpiece. These sections involve no real gameplay whatsoever and simply hope to show off Sonic's speed in a cheap marketing bid.

It's less platforming than the classic titles and more just going forward, but it's more a matter of balancing things worse than the classic titles than being completely different at its very core, if you ask me. I mean, there are still times in Sonic Adventure when you have to aim jumps accurately and jump from one thing to another, and it's not like they're some extreme rarity or something.

Basically, Sonic Adventure is a worse Sonic game than the classics, sure, and it does some things differently from them, sure, but that doesn't mean it should be treated as something entirely different from them at its very core.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why are we debating about Classic Sonic on Sonic 2017? And we're not even discussing how Classic Sonic might play in Project 2017, but Genesis Sonic games and how all modern Sonic games are supposedly inherenty awful. This is hardly a debate anymore. 

So, on that note, how do you think Classic Sonic will play in comparison to Sonic Generations? Do you think they'll improve him and make him play exactly like the classics? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Pixel said:

There's barely any platforming in Adventure, it's almost all just running along a straight line while admiring the scenery and running through boost pads.

Which character's levels are we talking about again?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are all entitled to like Modern Sonic if you want. If you think the plot will improve then good luck.

But I rue the day when the glorious Classic Sonic formula died. We had a masterful game design thrown away, despite its massive success and popularity for an inferior and shitty product. Now I am lumped with godawful titles when the wonderful and iconic design of the awesome Classic Sonic titles was just dumped at the side.

Poor Sonic, a hero in so many eyes, thrown to the side so we can get the green eyed Modern Sonic imposter :( .

I would feel better if Classic Sonic's popularity had waned before they went off the rails and did a Skylander esque redesign of Sonic's art style and gameplay. But I don't even get that reprieve, I have to know that Sonic Team threw away a game philosophy that many companies would pay out the nose for and cherish for absolutely no reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.