Classic and Modern - More than just a Stylistic Choice

[Nepenthe]

Ironically, I find it very easy to argue that Gens isn't canon because bad application of time travel rules either means Sonic's past self now lives in a split timeline- which might have ugly ramifications on 2017- or that we have two Shadows running around our present universe, and it's not good juju either way.

Granted, if I were to take into account that Sonic Team obviously didn't give a shit about the effect of time on the rest of the series, that would indeed be the smoking gun, at least until someone brings up ShtH again.

[ChikoLad]

41 minutes ago, Sean said:

The headcanoning you're doing to justify the way the Mario series does things is precisely the same amount you're using to justify that several Sonic games take place in different continuities. Both sets of developers put the exact same level of thought in discrepancies between titles, which is to say, extremely little.

Ah, but aren't you equally headcanoning by assuming it changed location, when in fact, it could have just been the world around Peach's Castle changing?

Because it hasn't been officially commented on either way. I was just playing by your headcanon. You said it makes no sense that Peach's Castle changes location between games (which is a headcanon), but I explained that it in fact could make sense when we've literally seen her castle get yanked out of the ground multiple times.

In any case, Peach's Castle is not comparable to Earth in Sonic. Peach's Castle is a single building so you can easily rationalise that, in-universe, it just moved or the world around it changed (the latter being most likely, especially since as consoles got more powerful, they populated the area around Peach's Castle more and more each time with a more detailed environment - you could easily rationalise the Mushroom Kingdom simply expanded in size with more Toads living near it, so it doesn't really contradict anything).

The entire layout of Sonic's Earth changed, totally, between Shadow and Unleashed. That means certain places from Sonic's past can't feasibly exist anymore because the world layout changed (Unleashed's Earth seems to have less space than the real Earth that games like Shadow were based on). Some places would have to be in different locations. Past Sonic games had a much more solid sense of a world than a Mario game would, so it's more of an eyebrow raiser in Sonic, as Mario never really had a distinct set of locations in most games in the main series. Furthermore, Unleashed doesn't have any connection to previous games in terms of it's story or lore. It was it's own story, it's own world. Shadow, both the game and the character, may as well have never existed, because Unleashed contradicts the world presented in Shadow, and nothing from that game is referenced.

See, when I came here, I initially said that I do indeed view Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic as being split into two sub-series', however, only in gameplay and aesthetic choices, as well as minor differences in Sonic's character (explained by Classic Sonic being a younger Sonic from the past, as we saw in Generations). They mostly take place in two different worlds that Sonic can somehow travel between, which has been officially confirmed. They are the same continuity as it stands, but I also wouldn't give a rat's arse if they decided to change that like how they retconned '06. Because they are only connected by "official word" and not much by elements presented in the games.

Your initial argument was that it's bad for SEGA to segregate the Sonics at all even if they are still the same character, because it confuses people regarding the lore of the franchise, and they should just try to "integrate the Classic elements into the Modern games". But people are already confused about it. Like, SEGA care so little about the franchise's overarching lore and there are so many plotholes, inconsistencies, and contradictions in the franchises lore, and I gave "Earth is completely different in Shadow and Unleashed" as an example of that.

So, if you'd stop bringing up unrelated things like Mario for a second, and making me discuss your Mario headcanons - my point here is that we are well past the point where lore relations between Classic and Modern Sonic matter at all, either to selling the games or to the quality of the games. We are at a point where, no matter what your personal opinion is on the matter, SEGA view Classic Sonic as a different entity as far as branding, aesthetics, and gameplay mechanics is concerned, even if canonically, he's the same person as Modern Sonic and both "Sonic's world" (mostly for the Classics) and Earth (mostly for the Moderns) co-exist in this universe. There is nothing inherently bad about SEGA selling Classic Sonic as an "alternative" to people who don't like Modern Sonic, be it his design or his take on the character or his associated gameplay. This strategy has obvious potential, and franchises like Batman have proven it.

I just can't see why "MUH LORE AND INTEGRATION" is being brought up as the reason why this decision is "bad" (keeping in mind "bad" is a statement of objectivity), when 1) Sonic lore is dumb and all over the place and not very well integrated as is, and 2) this decision has brought about some VERY positive things already, mainly, Sonic Mania and the fact guys like Taxman are now working with SEGA. If they didn't view Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic as separate entities now in terms of gameplay and aesthetics, we wouldn't be getting Mania. We would have another entire year and then some, to wait until Sonic Team gets their next game out. A game like Mania is guaranteed to be good (i.e it's a proven formula made by a proven team with a proven engine), and due to how many more people seem to like the Classic style games, it's guaranteed to sell. It's the sort of decision that is only doing the franchise good right now.

[VO.SUPER]

You guys seem to be really going back and forth on semantics. I don't think any of you will get anywhere. 

[ChikoLad]

Just now, VisionaryofSUPER said:

You guys seem to be really going back and forth on semantics. I don't think any of you will get anywhere. 

Not so much semantics, people just keep thinking I'm saying something completely different to what I'm saying and bringing up something unrelated.

>Say "I wouldn't care if the canon relation between the two Sonics changes as I think Sonic lore is too badly botched for it to matter"

>Get told that I "actively want them to split the two up" as far as canon goes and that "no other franchise actually does this shit" (even though that is just factually wrong on so many levels)

Indifference and desire and are two completely different things, guys.

[Nepenthe]

The Classics had no direct mentions of what the entire planet looked like despite having a continuous story from 2-3&K. All we got were scattered islands in the unnamed ocean(s), completely useless in order to parse geography. Sonic Adventure 1 also lacked a map, but the recurring Angel Island is distinctly different from the one in SA1, being a completely different size and missing locations outright with no canon indication as to why. So under your argument that recurring locations bearing no similarities to each other disprove continuity, you now cannot argue that SA1 (and by extension Sonic CD since only SA1 directly references its existence) is in the same continuity as S3&K.

So now we have two continuities based on this parameter: one where S1, S2, and S3&K happened, and one where CD and then SA1 happened. We don't even have a map yet.

The first time we do get a map in a major title is in Sonic Adventure 2's stage select, and none of the borders drawn bear any resemblance to the obviously cobbled-together map in ShtH, meaning we now actually have another continuity split where which in turn SA1, SA2, and Sonic Heroes happened, and then ShtH and then Sonic 06 happened.

That's four new continuities based on nothing more than whether or not recurring locations are different. Ludicrous argument.

Also, even if everyone agreed that the implications of lore don't matter, you still have yet to reconcile the financial reality that Sonic actually sold better when it was just one franchise with one distinct brand identity than he's doing now with this Classic/Modern/Boom trifecta of bullshit. Sega is literally getting no discernible financial benefit from carving up the franchise in this manner; all they're doing is splitting their install base up and herding these subgroups to different games. The idea that Sonic Mania simply couldn't exist in a world where Modern Sonic was still the main and only headliner of the franchise is also random conjecture given that throwbacks and nostalgic retreads happen on the daily for franchises that still continue to exist.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I don't even like the idea of having the split between Classic and Modern because it feels like an attempt to just disown games that certain parts of the fanbase doesn't like. Like for example, you never hear anyone say "Oh, which character do you better? Modern Mario or Classic Mario?". That's what kinda annoys me the most. I love Unleashed for example, but because it's a Modern title, and Classic seems to be getting more love then the Modern side, does that mean Unleashed is disowned from the franchise? Despite all the world-building it actively did for the series? Despite the fact it managed to hit a good balance between the lighter elements of Sonic, and the more darker elements? I just don't like how because some games in the franchise was bad, now we have to start discussion about which ones are now non-canon and disowned because they're different, and which aren't.

I mean, you never hear anyone say "Oh, Mario 64/Sunshine and Mario Galaxy are actually two different sub-series." "Why?" "Well, Mario 64/Sunshine has more realistic environments like mountains, beaches, and towers while Galaxy has all these different and wacky planets". So the argument that the artstyle is different doesn't work unless you're willing to also use that same argument on good series, like Mario for example.

[ChikoLad]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The Classics had no direct mentions of what the entire planet looked like despite having a continuous story from 2-3&K. All we got were scattered islands in the unnamed ocean(s), completely useless in order to parse geography. Sonic Adventure 1 also lacked a map, but the recurring Angel Island is distinctly different from the one in SA1, being a completely different size and missing locations outright with no canon indication as to why. So under your argument that recurring locations bearing no similarities to each other disprove continuity, you now cannot argue that SA1 (and by extension Sonic CD since only SA1 directly references its existence) is in the same continuity as S3&K.

So now we have two continuities based on this parameter: one where S1, S2, and S3&K happened, and one where CD and then SA1 happened. We don't even have a map yet.

The first time we do get a map in a major title is in Sonic Adventure 2's stage select, and none of the borders drawn bear any resemblance to the obviously cobbled-together map in ShtH, meaning we now actually have another continuity split where which in turn SA1, SA2, and Sonic Heroes happened, and then ShtH and then Sonic 06 happened.

That's four new continuities based on nothing more than whether or not recurring locations are different. Ludicrous argument.

Also, even if everyone agreed that the implications of lore don't matter, you still have yet to reconcile the financial reality that Sonic actually sold better when it was just one franchise with one distinct brand identity than he's doing now with this Classic/Modern/Boom trifecta of bullshit. Sega is literally getting no discernible financial benefit from carving up the franchise in this manner; all they're doing is splitting their install base up and herding these subgroups to different games. The idea that Sonic Mania simply couldn't exist in a world where Modern Sonic was still the main and only headliner of the franchise is also random conjecture given that throwbacks and nostalgic retreads happen on the daily for franchises that still continue to exist.

But I'm not saying we actually have different continuities. I'm saying the lore and integration in Sonic games is too flimsy for it to be a factor in why we shouldn't have a sub series starring Classic Sonic. Like you just demonstrated, Sonic's lore has very little consistency. And it's not limited to worlds. Reminder that Eggman Nega literally has two different backstories.

Also correlation does not equal causation. Let's not get into Godwin's Law territory. Sonic started selling less long before this split between Modern and Classic happened. The split itself didn't cause the reduced sales, there was already a much smaller install base of dedicated fans when the split happened (and they are trying to create more dedicated fans through this new split). The reduced sales were caused by Sonic effectively going MIA between Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure, and the changing tides of the industry that happened in that time, and even more poor decisions leading to SEGA going third party. Then Rise of Lyric and Lost World were lukewarm in sales because of the Wii U, and in Boom's case, word of mouth about how bad it was. Shattered Crystal suffered due to association with Rise of Lyric.

We have much more logical reasons for Sonic's decline in sales than "IT WAS ALL CLASSIC SONIC'S FAULT".

Also no, we would NOT be getting Mania if they didn't do this split, because Sonic Team are too busy to work on a game like it right now. And Taxman is well aware of the specific demand for Classic Sonic in both gameplay and design, due to his roots on Sonic Retro (a site that quite obviously favours the Classics).

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Question: how to we merge the series together? And it becoming one does that mean eliminating one playstyle in favor of one or can we have the player choose? Like if I want to boost, I can pay 100 rings for the skill in the game and knock myself out.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Lady Knuxchao said:

Question: how to we merge the series together? And it becoming one does that mean eliminating one playstyle in favor of one or can we have the player choose? Like if I want to boost, I can pay 100 rings for the skill in the game and knock myself out.

Why would it need merging though? For Classic fans, there's gonna be Mania, and if that does well, likely more games done by StealthTax. Modern fans have the boost gameplay. It's not the most perfect system, but it's not like there can't be spinoffs and such with the other playstyles, and as I said multiple times before, I think if a risk/reward system got worked into the Boost gameplay, it could work really well. Different playstyles doesn't mean different canons. If that was the case, then Mario, Rayman, Ratchet and Clank, and many other franchises would have barely any canon because they keep changing playstyles between games.

[Scar]

2 minutes ago, Lady Knuxchao said:

Question: how to we merge the series together? And it becoming one does that mean eliminating one playstyle in favor of one or can we have the player choose? Like if I want to boost, I can pay 100 rings for the skill in the game and knock myself out.

Easiest way to do this is to not care. Go with a gameplay that works and stick to it. Evolve and develop it, but from that point on there is no need to flip-flop with random gameplay elements outside of spin-offs.

[ChikoLad]

I don't really have a problem with Sonic alternating play styles in the main series as long as it's fun. Which has been the case for most entries, outside of Shadow and '06 (and I wasn't a big fan of SA2 but that's for different reasons).

That being said, I love the idea of Sonic Team just focusing on Modern Sonic/AAA efforts like Unleashed, Taxman and co. focusing on Classic games, and guys like Sanzaru handling Boom.

Plenty of other franchises do this.

[Scar]

1 minute ago, ChikoLad said:

I don't really have a problem with Sonic alternating play styles in the main series as long as it's fun.

Because its difficult to do so and maintain exceptional standards in terms of quality. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

12 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Why would it need merging though? For Classic fans, there's gonna be Mania, and if that does well, likely more games done by StealthTax. Modern fans have the boost gameplay. It's not the most perfect system, but it's not like there can't be spinoffs and such with the other playstyles, and as I said multiple times before, I think if a risk/reward system got worked into the Boost gameplay, it could work really well. Different playstyles doesn't mean different canons. If that was the case, then Mario, Rayman, Ratchet and Clank, and many other franchises would have barely any canon because they keep changing playstyles between games.

Of course, I don't want them to be different canons; my only worry was that they were going to get rid of one playstyle in order to appeal to the fans which is kinda what they should do but I am not all for it. 

[Nepenthe]

21 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

But I'm not saying we actually have different continuities. I'm saying the lore and integration in Sonic games is too flimsy for it to be a factor in why we shouldn't have a sub series starring Classic Sonic. Like you just demonstrated, Sonic's lore has very little consistency. And it's not limited to worlds. Reminder that Eggman Nega literally has two different backstories.

Also correlation does not equal causation. Let's not get into Godwin's Law territory. Sonic started selling less long before this split between Modern and Classic happened. The split itself didn't cause the reduced sales, there was already a much smaller install base of dedicated fans when the split happened (and they are trying to create more dedicated fans through this new split). The reduced sales were caused by Sonic effectively going MIA between Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure, and the changing tides of the industry that happened in that time, and even more poor decisions leading to SEGA going third party. Then Rise of Lyric and Lost World were lukewarm in sales because of the Wii U, and in Boom's case, word of mouth about how bad it was. Shattered Crystal suffered due to association with Rise of Lyric.

We have much more logical reasons for Sonic's decline in sales than "IT WAS ALL CLASSIC SONIC'S FAULT".

Also no, we would NOT be getting Mania if they didn't do this split, because Sonic Team are too busy to work on a game like it right now. And Taxman is well aware of the specific demand for Classic Sonic in both gameplay and design, due to his roots on Sonic Retro (a site that quite obviously favours the Classics).

I haven't demonstrated that the entire storyline has inconsistency and thus is nonexistent or impossible to parse. I've demonstrated that Sonic Team doesn't care to make sure the parameters of each and every location are perfectly ironclad between games, and they probably did it for the same reason they changed Sonic's model between Adventure 1 and Adventure 2: it doesn't matter to the point of the narratives.

Furthermore, you do not need to educate me on correlation fallacies. I've already pointed that out in this topic. I'm arguing that your statement that the split is a good thing because it "creates more sales" is completely unsupported by the reality that Generations didn't reverse the trend in any meaningful way. Your argument isn't all that believable, so why in the world are we here again?

And why in the world are you acting like Sonic Team has never gotten help on or outsourced a game before while they worked separately???

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Lady Knuxchao said:

Of course, I don't want them to be different canons; my only worry was that they were going to get rid of one playstyle in order to appeal to the fans which is kinda what they should do but I am not all for it. 

But that isn't even what they're doing. They've literally done it in a way to try appeal to as many fans as they possibly can.

Boost: Project 2017

Boom: Fire & Ice

Classic: Mania

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

4 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

But that isn't even what they're doing. They've literally done it in a way to try appeal to as many fans as they possibly can.

Boost: Project 2017

Boom: Fire & Ice

Classic: Mania

I'm confused XD

Did people say they didnt want seperate games for fans because of the split?

[Dr. Mechano]

I don't think Sega's treating the classic/modern games as separate franchises. Just separate gameplay styles, which they are. It's hardly different from the Mario series continuing to make 2D games and 3D games concurrently. 

There, of course, were 2D games that used the modern character designs (Advance/Rush/Rivals/Sonic 4), but these games didn't play like the classic series in terms of physics or level design. Getting a proper classic-style game has been a long time coming, I say.

[ChikoLad]

2 minutes ago, Scar said:

Because its difficult to do so and maintain exceptional standards in terms of quality. 

Difficult, but not impossible.

Rayman stuck to the same formula even less than Sonic did and it was never a problem for him.

Again, as long as the end result is fun (and it has been for me in most cases), I don't really mind.

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I haven't demonstrated that the entire storyline has inconsistency and thus is nonexistent or impossible to parse. I've demonstrated that Sonic Team doesn't care to make sure the parameters of each and every location are perfectly ironclad between games, and they probably did it for the same reason they changed Sonic's model between Adventure 1 and Adventure 2: it doesn't matter to the point of the narratives.

Furthermore, you do not need to educate me on correlation fallacies. I've already pointed that out in this topic. I'm arguing that your statement that the split is a good thing because it "creates more sales" is completely unsupported by the reality that Generations didn't reverse the trend in any meaningful way. Your argument is unsupported, so why in the world are we here again?

And why in the world are you acting like Sonic Team has never gotten help on or outsourced a game before while they worked alone???

They don't care to make the worlds consistent because they don't care about the lore, period. That has been my point from the beginning, I just used the worlds as an example. You just decided to ignore that and view my post as "the games shouldn't link up because the worlds don't". Which isn't what I was saying.

Generations actually broke pre-order records for the franchise. And I doubt that was because of Modern Sonic. Clearly an improvement in interest over past titles.

I'm not acting like Sonic Team hasn't gotten help or outsourced before. But this time, they are doing it not just for the sake of having random new Sonic games. Having a team dedicated to Classic games is more of a solid vision than just having teams make random spin-offs or handheld titles.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 minutes ago, Lady Knuxchao said:

I'm confused XD

Did people say they didnt want seperate games for fans because of the split?

I was referring to your reply of throwing away playstyles. 

[ChikoLad]

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I don't think Sega's treating the classic/modern games as separate franchises. Just separate gameplay styles, which they are. It's hardly different from the Mario series continuing to make 2D games and 3D games concurrently. 

There, of course, were 2D games that used the modern character designs (Advance/Rush/Rivals/Sonic 4), but these games didn't play like the classic series in terms of physics or level design. Getting a proper classic-style game has been a long time coming, I say.

I agree with that, but the thing people seem to have a problem with is "they don't have to use the Classic design for the Classic gameplay style. Just keep Modern SOnic's design".

I personally think it's better to actually use the Classic design though.

[Nepenthe]

7 minutes ago, ChikoLad said:

They don't care to make the worlds consistent because they don't care about the lore, period. That has been my point from the beginning

It's not a justified point in a series with direct sequels that reference previously established canon.

Quote

I just used the worlds as an example. You just decided to ignore that and view my post as "the games shouldn't link up because the worlds don't". Which isn't what I was saying.

I refuted the reasoning for your above argument by pointing out how flawed it was in a broader application.

Quote

Generations actually broke pre-order records for the franchise. And I doubt that was because of Modern Sonic. Clearly an improvement in interest over past titles.

Probably because it actually had interesting preorder swag versus every other game beforehand. And it still didn't sell as well as pre-split titles.

Quote

I'm not acting like Sonic Team hasn't gotten help or outsourced before. But this time, they are doing it not just for the sake of having random new Sonic games. Having a team dedicated to Classic games is more of a solid vision than just having teams make random spin-offs or handheld titles.

It doesn't matter why they're outsourcing Mania. The point is Mania could have existed in some form forever ago, and we all know this because hackers were basically doing just that (hell, a hacker is the lead man), because there is nothing about its existence that objectively relies on Sega branching the franchise off into ten thousand directions.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

There, of course, were 2D games that used the modern character designs (Advance/Rush/Rivals/Sonic 4), but these games didn't play like the classic series in terms of physics or level design. Getting a proper classic-style game has been a long time coming, I say.

Advance 1 played just like the classics. Rush and Rivals didn't market themselves as classics.... Sonic 4 on the other hand..........

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Lady Knuxchao said:

Question: how to we merge the series together? And it becoming one does that mean eliminating one playstyle in favor of one or can we have the player choose? Like if I want to boost, I can pay 100 rings for the skill in the game and knock myself out.

Most players accept that they're not going to get 100% of what they want out of the game they're playing. I feel like you could make a Sonic game that appealed to most players well enough despite how "divided" the fanbase is. Sure, you're not going to get everyone, but you shouldn't care about getting everyone. That's never going to happen. A physics based 3D Sonic game that controlled well, had some playable characters, a story that isn't bad, and a decent amount of content would tick enough boxes for a  lot of people.

The fanbase is also honestly probably going to buy into it no matter what so Sega probably shouldn't have to worry about them so much compared to the wider gaming community. I saw too many people stick by their Rise of Lyric preorders for no fucking reason to think otherwise.

[ChikoLad]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

It's not a justified point in a series with direct sequels that reference previously established canon.

Yes it is, because those games are simply sets of "sagas", like a two-parter special of a cartoon. Even Mario has this, it's nothing to say the franchise has some sort of big lore

 

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

I refuted the reasoning for your above argument by pointing out how flawed it was in a broader application.

And you failed to do that because like I demonstrated, there isn't a solid enough lore for lore to be a compelling argument for why Classic Sonic shouldn't have a little series of his own.

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Probably because it actually had interesting preorder swag versus every other game beforehand. And it still didn't sell as well as pre-split titles.

Only in Europe. America didn't get anything really. Japan got something kinda neat but it was something you could do without.

Look at any reaction to Sonic Generations' reveal trailer. People were hyped for Classic Sonic and the nostalgic nature of the game.

5 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

It doesn't matter why they're outsourcing Mania. The point is Mania could have existed in some form forever ago- and we all know this because hackers were basically doing just that- because there is nothing about its existence that objectively relies on Sega branching the franchise off into ten thousand directions.

I highly doubt Taxman could make Mania how it is now without SEGA specifically choosing to enlist him and funding the project and putting it up for sale so he gets some monetary gain out of it. And Taxman wouldn't make a Classic-styled game with Modern because he knows that Classic Sonic is important to the identity of that gameplay.

[Scar]

I don't understand what your point is. Why would producing main series game with different gameplay or gameplay that alternates between styles benefit anyone (apart from those who are doggedly loyal to a specific gameplay style and refuse to settle for anything else)?