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What was the problem with Heroes?


YelloGecko

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It was a pretty fun game imo. The plot was corny, but who cares? It was a fairly well made game, with the quality dripping slightly near the last 2 or 3 levels of the game. I'd give it a 7/10, good, but not great.

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The biggest praise I can give Sonic Heroes is "It killed my interest in Sonic gently". Basically, It allowed me to lol at the first info released pertaining to Shadow the Hedgehog like a normal person and recognise it as the horrible idea it was because Heroes had broken most of the emotional attachment I had with the series.

Thanks to it, he is my blurb reaction to each Sonic game to come after it:

I saw the first pictures of Shadow with a gun, I respond with "Oh, Sega!" (think "Oh, you")

Believe it or not, that CG trailer that Sega tried to pass off as in game was briefly on Gamespot or one of those sites and I happened to watch it during that time. My reaction to it was "Looks like the same crap they've been making since SA 2".

Not very good when the highest praise you can give something is "It lowered my expectations just in time". Man am I glad I only rented this game.

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I'll still be an ass and list problems, I've decided.

Awful Pacing.

Much like Advance 3 (though not as bad, of course), Heroes doesn't know what it wants to be. Its a homing-attack-spam game for the most part, and tries to segue it into fast paced gameplay. And it almost works, except for the unavoidable "bring things to a complete stop just because" sections that half of the levels have, which completely ruin any flow the game has and make the homing attacking, wall ninja-ing, tornado spinning and extreme grinding flashiness just seem like flowery crap put in to hide how rough it actually feels.

Graphics

Unlike ShtH, which decided to follow "real is brown," Heroes suffers from the exact opposite. Everything is bright and colorful and nice like a Sonic game should be, but the character models look like they are wrapped in Saran wrap. The graphics were mostly passable at the time (nothing fantastic, but good enough), and the textures were nice and clean (at least on the GCN/XBox versions), but the overly waxy-looking models just didn't fit with the surroundings and looked quite poor.

Controls/Physics

Now, I'm not one to get involved in the "pinball physics/hill physics/whatever" arguments as I find them a tad pretentious, but I can tell you flat out that Heroes sucked by any standard. First of all and most glaringly, you can't stop. Pull back on the stick and instead of slowing apreciably down you just get flung off into the left or right, depending on what direction the stick was closest to facing. Compounding the problem is that the later levels seemed to be bits of scaffolding floating above bottomless pits rather then actual stages (and the game occasionally didn't bother with the "stop right on the edge" animation and sometimes just let you fling off).

Next, Bingo Highway and the special stages, two things which should have been fantastic, come off as barely playable because they simply did not work in any rational way. The momentum is completely illogical, movement seems to be random with barely any influence on the player, and the game acts as if none of this is the case and spits out various challenges along the way. Its like playing the Sonic 2 bonus rounds using only diagonals on the D-Pad. The rail physics, after being so intuitive and fun in Adventure 2, are presented here more as an ends to a means; suffering for the same reason as the special stages do and essentially just being boring and frustrating.

The Team Gimmick

I won't lie. There were times where it did work. Blasting through Ocean Palace admittedly put a big "Fuck Yeah!" smile on my face that stayed there for long after the level even ended. The transitions between characters were smooth and precise and easy to accomplish. Then Rail Canyon happened. Where upon half of the level played like a series of QTEs without an actual on screen prompt to tell you what button to push. Going at 7 million miles per hour as the speed character right into a wall you have to break using Knuckles, or into a chasm you have to fly over as Tails. I suppose if one was to memorize the level layout exactly it could work, but if I wanted to play a 10 minute long game of Simon I'd bust out Space Channel 5. Quite frankly, it was years until I was comfortable playing the post-Bingo Highway levels without simply scumming with the Flying member at a piddly ass number of MPH, not the least of which being because of the rail physics.

The "4 teams 4 times the gameplay" crap was pretty laughable too when it was really "play the same game on 3 difficulty levels + a bonus difficulty level with very minor (yet still poorly implemented!) gameplay differences." Of course, compared to the "play the exact same game a dozen times" mechanic used in ShtH, its fantastic.

Level/Enemy Design

I've already touched on this, but Heroes very quickly turned into bits of narrow floating landmasses over pits of doom. Considering Adventure 2 didn't even have doom pits until the halfway point or so IIRC, its a tad ridiculous that there are homing attack chasms as early as the second level. The whole game was also far to linear. While that could be leveled at Adventure 2 as well to an extent, Heroes didn't even try to hide it. You were essentially just going straight with minor turns to the left and right.

Call me a classicfag if you will, but I'm completely unimpressed with the enemies this game has to offer. Its essentially the same two generic robot designs with minor weapons variations throughout the whole game. Also, whatever idiot thought it would be a good idea to have standard enemies take half a dozen hits (or in the case of the fucking Egghammer twins, a couple dozen) to defeat with a non-powered-up character should have been fired on the spot. They are standard robots for a reason. If they require some kind of convoluted "find the weakness" plot to kill, they should be relegated to a mid-boss.

Speaking of the bosses, they were completely uninspired and boring. Every single one until Egg Emperor seems like it had 2 minutes of thought put into it, and even Egg Emperor was just a needlessly/unfairly cheaper version of an amalgram of some 16 bit bosses. And don't get me started on Metal Sonic.

Story

Lol, wut? There are filler episodes of Inuyasha with better character development. And the overall plot was stupid by itself.

That wall of text may make it sound like I hate the game. Not so. In fact, I love the music, graphical style (other than the models) and level aesthetics, the camera was decent for the most part, it was relatively bug-free; and it was the last 3D Sonic game that I think was actually any good (to this day even). But damn, all things considering, it was quite a let down.

Edited by Tornado
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It was a pretty fun game imo. The plot was corny, but who cares? It was a fairly well made game, with the quality dripping slightly near the last 2 or 3 levels of the game. I'd give it a 7/10, good, but not great.

I cared. If Sonic games are to have simple plots then fine, but don't have constant dialog that (as Badniks said) seems like it was written by a 3rd grader for a 3rd grader. The corny plot/script was one of the biggest issues I had with the game.

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Am I the only one who liked this game? I never played Sonic games for plot, and despite it's somewhat poor controls most levels managed to be fun. I found the corny plot funny, if anything. I mean I'd much prefer a better Sonic plot like SA2, but I prefer something like Heroes' plot to, say, Sonic '06's dreadful story.

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I think Heroes was an okay game. Aesthetically, it captured the Sonic charm. The levels were unique, the music was great, and world was colorful. On the downside, though, it felt like you were forced to play the same game four times, the story was very shallow, and the dialog and VA were... ugh. Outside of Chaotix and Metal Sonic (who I felt were actually well handled), the rest of the cast was Flanderized. The bosses are a very mixed bag. As for the core gameplay... it wasn't bad, but it wasn't exceptional. For me, I'd rank it third for the 3D games under SA2 and Unleashed. The use of teamwork was well executed and the structure of the individual levels made them very distinct, but the magic is lost when you play through the second or third time and the levels feel a bit drawn out. I won't say Heroes is a bad game, but it's clearly the first visible step I see in Sonic's decline.

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Am I the only one who liked this game? I never played Sonic games for plot, and despite it's somewhat poor controls most levels managed to be fun. I found the corny plot funny, if anything. I mean I'd much prefer a better Sonic plot like SA2, but I prefer something like Heroes' plot to, say, Sonic '06's dreadful story.

No, I think it's okay. I can still list the things I didn't like though. Everything about 06 was worse then Heroes, and I don't like 06 at all. It's just going from SA2 to SH was a bit jarring. They were so different in terms of story telling. As I said give me NO plot/script over the too "kiddy" SH, or the too "mature" S06. I thought SA, and SU had the right feel for story telling in a Sonic game.

Edited by speedfreak
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Sonic Unleashed's story was a tad childish at points, but for the most part I enjoyed the cutscenes, specifically the one's featuring Robotnik and the CGI ones.

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Well Sonic Heroes was the first Sonic game I ever owned myself and not just played someone else's. It helped me to become a Sonic fan. Also there have been long periods of time in which for various reasons Sonic Heroes is the only 3D Sonic game available for play. I do recognise the flaws in the game though and while I wouldn't put Sonic Heroes in my favourite Sonic games, I do still love the game.

The level design seemed to get worse as the game went on, though there were some good later levels. The first level actually seemed wide open, with multiple paths (though too much Kart) and the early levels actually allowed a good upkeep of speed. Switching characters can sometimes get annoying as I find myself having to stop to switch and sometimes it switches to the wrong character. I especially like the Team VS Team battles as while they are poorly designed and sometimes difficult to win, I like seeing the characters fight each other, especially when its down to a 1 VS 1 fight (Once I ended up in a Charmy VS Rouge fight which was awesome). The dialogue just made me laugh and while the lines were stupid I still felt everyone was in character.

Replaying Sonic Heroes these days, I mainly play as Team Rose as I feel they are the most entertaining team to play as. Their levels are shorter and often ignore the more annoying sections of levels. Plus Amy's tornado and hover abilities can be used to get past many of the Flight and Power obstacles, meaning you don't have to change characters regularly, if at all, allowing you to race through even the later levels.

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And as for Heroes, this is the big "Love It or Hate It" game.

Basically this. Granted I haven't played the game in years, but I enjoyed it and finished it. I owned the GC version, which had the less problems (PC might've been better) and I really didn't notice most of the issues. How long the levels can get, yes I had a issues with that, but minor.

Maybe I'm just not as picky with Sonic games as other people are, so yeah. I'll be replaying it for a playthrough, so let's see if my thoughts are still the same. :\

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I'm probably one of the biggest Sonic Heroes Haters here, but admittedly, it's a decent game, but incredibly bland. Shadow the Hedgehog was a pretty sucky game compared to Heroes, but I somehow like that more, and even I'd pick Sonic 06's levels than dealing with the bullshit that Heroes give me (I shouldn't be scared of flying off a cliff because Knuckles/Omega has the wonkiest punches ever). Tornado pretty much said all that I wanted to say, except that Heroes is the first and only game where I admit there were too many god damn playable characters. Also, Shadow's revival sucked balls.

As someone said earlier, Sonic Heroes was pretty much the first dark spot for me as far Sonic's downfall goes. It got raised when Shadow came out (despite the admittance that it sucked), and then my expectations absolutely plummeted when I played Sonic 06.

And how come we NEVER fought Metal Sonic in his Neo form?

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Just to clarify I didn't hate Heroes. I enjoyed it, hell I can forgive most of it's problems. I just mostly hated the fact that the game was so "kiddy". Not that I want "mature" Sonic either mind you. I just think Heroes took it too far. Fighting Amy to not marry her, a date to die for, the super power of team work, etc. It was a real turn off to me. I would have enjoyed the game more with no story at all tbh. I think SU got the story tone almost perfect for comparison.

Okay, even as a fan of this game I will admit that what you just posted was a big problem with the game for me as well. I hate super serious Sonic (the only stories I beleived it worked for are SatAM and SA2B) but you can take it too far down the other extreme as well as you mentioned.

The scene where Sonic says "Let's Find Eggman, and so him the real power of Teamwork!" before Grand Metropolis and "let's show him the real super power of teamwork!" in the last story made me cringe so hard.

Also, while I love Tails to pieces, in this game I felt like fucking strangling him he was so annoying in this game. His voice was at its absolute worst and some of the lines he came out with were just bad, such as "Look at all those Eggman's robots!" this kid has an IQ of 300 but he can't even speak basic English in this game?

The plot also isn't one to write home about, for ANY of the teams, but in my mind the gameplay makes up for all of this.

Edited by Leon K Fox
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It's a good game, better than Secret Rings and FAR better than ShtH, but I do see quite a few flaws in it. For me this is most prominent with the storyline and the God-awful dialogue. It's just...cringe worthy. The storyline is really boring too. This was also the game that started that STUPID trend where all the characters speak in the stages at every given moment!

We also didn't get to battle it out with Metal Sonic, because as usual, he has to turn into some stupid dragon monster thing. -__-

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Oh, and one more thing, the Mystic Mansion stage can go to hell, I just played through it...EURRGGGHHH!!!

The stage is so boring and tedious it's not even funny.

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I won't lie. I loved this game. It's my favourite 3D Sonic title ever. I love the colourfulness, the corniness, the teamwork aspect and the level designs. I can admit to most of the flaws that people have brought up, but still... I really really enjoyed Heroes. It's my most played of the 3D titles by far.

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Despite all the problems Heroes had, I will say that it is playable. I can sit down and play as any team through to the end. Yes, I will fall into plenty of bottomless pits in the later half of the game, but not enough to make me throw down my controller.

Shadow and '06 on the other hand are unplayable. The games are straight up broken.

Unrelated, some posts in this topic brought this out of me, but a minor pet peeve of mine:

It friggen ANNOYS me when folks refer to Sonic Adventure 2 as SA2B. Why specifically reference the Gamecube version when talking about the main game/plot/music/characters? Save yourself a "B" and call it SA2, that way you cover both versions. It also makes you appear as though you played the Dreamcast version, making you look cool. It's not as though you are referring to a version specific aspect of the game. Same goes for SADX. It's Sonic Adventure. I don't call Sonic the Hedgehog 2 "Sonic the Hedgehog 2 on the Sonic Mega Collection Plus for XBOX aka StH2SMCPXBOX".

Edited by Doctor Eggman
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Artistically, Heroes was horrid. I hated the way the characters looked and the scenery. The music was okay, and in places really good.

But as a game, what was wrong with it? I can't really think of anything except that I had to play as characters that annoyed me. I think it's easily the best console game since SA2. But I guess that's not hard.

But I'm not a big gamer. So what do I know.

Edited by Arrow
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I honestly think that had the game been cut in half, with Team Sonic and one other team being required and the other two teams being extra, it would be MUCH better.

Think of it: Everybody want to play as Team Sonic, so make that the first and only available team. As you progress and meet the other teams, their stories will be unlocked. Upon beating Team Sonic, the player must complete one more team story to unlock the final story. Old school Sonic fans would probably play as Chaotix, younger players would probably choose Team Rose and new school players or goths would choose Team Dark. Once the second team is completed, the player may play the final story OR play the other two teams. With the story complete, players can go back and see what the other two teams were up to and how they contributed to the plot.

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Unrelated, some posts in this topic brought this out of me, but a minor pet peeve of mine:

It friggen ANNOYS me when folks refer to Sonic Adventure 2 as SA2B. Why specifically reference the Gamecube version when talking about the main game/plot/music/characters? Save yourself a "B" and call it SA2, that way you cover both versions. It also makes you appear as though you played the Dreamcast version, making you look cool. It's not as though you are referring to a version specific aspect of the game. Same goes for SADX. It's Sonic Adventure. I don't call Sonic the Hedgehog 2 "Sonic the Hedgehog 2 on the Sonic Mega Collection Plus for XBOX aka StH2SMCPXBOX".

As I said in another thread, anyone who cares what abbreviation someone uses to refer to a game needs to stop being so friggin' anal, because it's ridiculous, it really is.

Anyway, back on topic, did anyone else find Team Chaotix's missions to be tedious? They're the worst team in the game by far in my opinion.

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Anyway, back on topic, did anyone else find Team Chaotix's missions to be tedious? They're the worst team in the game by far in my opinion.

I thought Chaotix were fun, their missions were varied and Espio's ninja stealth was pretty cool. You should probably not be so anal about it. ;)

I'm referring to the XBOX version by the way (SHX), not SHGC.

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Anyway, back on topic, did anyone else find Team Chaotix's missions to be tedious? They're the worst team in the game by far in my opinion.

Without a doubt. I do appreciate how they gave more variety to the gameplay, but it's just so fucking tedious. Especially Mainly the collect-a-thon missions, and it's even worse when you miss a few, cause in missions where you need EVERY item, God it's just bullshit. It's just like this other bad game that had this problem, I just can't remember it at the moment.

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The positive:

+ The team system was original-ish

+ Brought back a few classic characters

+ Brought back Emerald-collecting

+ Brought back checkers

+ Tails follows you again

+ Longer levels

+ Funny-ish moments

The negative:

- Horrible controls

- Crazy camera

- Glitchy levels (I always fall through the floor)

- Extremly bad boss fights

- TOO long of levels

- Shallow team system

- Glitchy Special Stages with a sticky-roof- Awful, shiney character models

- Narmy story

- Un-inspired levels

- Boring enemies

- Awful dialog

- Randomly changed the style (from real-ish to checkers)

- Brought back characters badly (Team Chaot- what?, ditched a member [not like Mighty was that good in the first place])

- Stupid AI (the collect rings automatically, which pervents me from doing the light speed dash)

As you can see, the bad undos any of the good in the game. Keep in mind this is my opinion and the GC version of the game.

I appreciate your opinion, and I agree with you in that Heroes analysis, but you say you dislike this more than Sonic 06... when Sonic 06's problems mirrored that of Heroes (x2) yet had none of the positives to counter it. I'm a bit confused. Oh well. :)

As for why people rag on Heroes... well, it's strange but nobody really does anymore to a large degree. Heroes has had something of a really strange relationship with the fanbase. When it was in development, the fans loved the shit out of it. We were downloading illegal rips of the soundtrack, we were burning demos that were leaked from somewhere... it was all good stuff.

Then it was released, and despite it being one of the biggest selling Sonic games of all time, the fans hated it. Probably as a kneejerk reaction to Shadow, team play, glitches etc. Some time passed, and while some people will tell you they dislike Heroes if asked, there are some who once slagged it off and now actually quite enjoy it. Maybe because it's the lesser of four evils (or rather, two evils and two mediocres).

The problem with Sonic Heroes, ultimately, was that it was Yuji Naka's big idea to try and make some form of coherence in the series' fanbase. This game was made especially for us. All of us. The classic fans. The modern fans. Naka-san tried to create an experience that would have the best of both worlds. In an attempt to get as many characters in there as possible (and the Chaotix revival was a blatant focus on appealing to the older fans) the Team mechanic was adopted.

A lot of people hate the team mechanic, and want to spit on Naka for even thinking of a flow-breaking gameplay feature like that. And certainly, it wasn't the best thing in the world. But I think people are somewhat too harsh on the game based on the team play -- I see Sonic Heroes as an experiment in that sense. Naka-san wanted to try something new, different, out-of-the-box. The team play was interesting, but it didn't work - it was a shame, but it wasn't the thing that killed the game like so many people say it is. Had the rest of the game been awesome and the team play remained, you probably would have just seen a 70% score game rather than the 85-90% that previous Sonic games received in the press.

For me, several things were big issues about Sonic Heroes:

Story

Sonic Team's attempt to reach classic and modern fans was no more evident than in its slapdash storyline. It tried to create a simple plot - Eggman's going to take over the world in 2 days, can you stop him? - but also attempted to bring the same sort of epic twists and plot devices that Sonic Adventure 2 enjoyed. The result was a mess.

Had the studio simply kept things basic and left the cutscenes and story at Team Sonic's intro and outro, it would have been a much better game. Sonic games best tell their stories through the player's level progression - this is proven in Sonic 3&K and was also true in Heroes. The problem with the latter was that Shadow's return was shoehorned into the proceedings like a disowned fart, Eggman was ultimately overthrown and Metal Sonic was completely OOC.

It turned the story into what I have since referred to as the "Fisher Price Sonic game" - in that you'd only enjoy it if you were 5 years old, because you wouldn't care about a story being that bad. The game felt kiddy, but only because of Shadow/Team Dark's pointless involvement, Metal Sonic's hilarious storyline and Eggman being reduced to a Scooby Doo suspect. Nix the whole lot, and the story would have been perfect.

Glitches/Unplayability

Whether you've noticed them or not (much like SADX's framerate and Sonic 06's general suckiness) glitches exist in Sonic Heroes. Falling through floors, homing attacks being nullified, Triangle Jump not working properly... all sorts. I still enjoy playing the game on a regular basis, mind you, but subjectively the game is poorly written. Sonic Adventure 1 had one of the best game engines around - it would be silly to ask Sonic Team to simply update that for Heroes (as the code would no doubt have to be re-written three times over for each platform instead of using middleware), but was the slippy-slidey engine really necessary? It felt like Sonic was running on a polished coffee table half the time.

The Special Stages are awesome in concept, and I love the fact that Sonic Team brought back classic special stages to obtain the Chaos Emeralds. They need to be brought back :P But as many have said before me, it was so difficult to play because you'd get stuck halfway up the pipe if you used your boost too much, slowing your progress down to a crawl. And while some levels had a few good ideas with Team based manouevres, the engine made life such a hassle to initiate anything other than a homing attack.

Level/Enemy Design

I loved the style of Sonic Heroes. Loved it. It was the closest thing you got to a 3D envisioning of the 2D classics (Great Metropolis/Power Plant = Metropolis Zone; Final Fortress = Sky Base; Casino Park remains one of the best 3D Sonic stages ever despite the team play and glitches; Frog Forest = Mushroom Hill Zone). Read: It felt like a proper Sonic game. Anyone who didn't like the level concepts and themes in Heroes basically got what they wanted in Sonic 2006, if you want my opinion.

About the only 'Zone' I really didn't like, and still list it as my most hated Zone of all time (barring anything in Sonic 06) is Bullet Station/Rail Canyon. It's practically the laziest pile of level design ever created - sure it's nice watching all those switches change your grinding course a hundred times over, but about 90% of that entire stage is on autopilot. While Sonic Adventure 2 introduced grinding delicately and with purpose, Sonic Heroes was about as discrete as a concrete rhinocerous. And just as boring too.

The stages were linear to a degree (although I'll argue that they weren't as linear as Sonic Adventure 2's by a long shot) but that was fine. The only thing that got up my nose in that respect was how in interviews Naka-san said you'd be able to take alternative paths. You can't (these alternative paths ended up being two-second deviations from the main path depending on what Team Skill you're playing at the time), which is fine - I just don't like being told something that ends up not being true.

Having said that, being forced to defeat multiple enemies to open the next area is a poor, poor gameplay mechanic for Sonic, and Sonic Heroes used that tactic liberally, particularly in Mystic Mansion (which otherwise is a groovy little stage). And that's not saying much for the enemies either - they were mediocre generic robot designs. About the only unique and charming enemy in the game was the EggRobo, but you saw those guys so many times throughout the game that any charm it had is lost the second you see them standing in front of a door for the thousandth time, thinking "Oh God, not -again-". Sonic Adventure had awesome badniks, Sonic Adventure 2 had generic robots but it was excused due to the story... Sonic Heroes was the start of a complete disregard for the Badnik.

The bosses were crap too. Just thought I'd say that.

TL;DR - I don't hate Sonic Heroes that much, but there's a lot to hate in the game. If that makes sense.

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I don't know if anyone said this yet, but I believe the game's one major, gamebreaking flaw was the Level Up feature. Just look at that shit and try to justify it.

In the Sonic Adventure games, Sonic could bonk any ol' enemy on the head one time to kill them. But in Heroes, it can take a shitload of hits to just kill a relatively minor enemy! Tails is useless until he's leveled up to level three, and the power characters are just annoying as fuck to play as regardless of their level. Basically, to have any fun in the game at all, you have to have your speed character and at least your flight character leveled all the way the entire time.

But thanks to the glitches in the game, as well as design flaws (knuckles punching and falling off of a ledge, grindrail switch fail, the entire casino zone) you will die alot. Because of this, you will lose ALL YOUR EXPERIENCE ORBS. Hell no; I quit.

Don't even get me started on how nonsensical the entire system is. When you kill enemies with one character (lets say Sonic) the enemies will only drop orbs for Tails and Knuckles. WHY? Some half assed attempt at getting the player to play more as the characters who are shit to play as?

I beat the game four times, and beat the final story. I can barely go back and play it today, unless I use my action replay to permanently set my characters to full leveled up status. I suggest everyone else do the same if they must play the first terrible 3D Sonic game.

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I don't know if anyone said this yet, but I believe the game's one major, gamebreaking flaw was the Level Up feature. Just look at that shit and try to justify it.

My memory is a little hazy, but didn't you lose all of your leveling up when entering the next level? So you might have a mixed out team midway through act 1, but come act 2 you're back to zero. If that was the case, then yeah, that was bullshit.

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Don't even get me started on how nonsensical the entire system is. When you kill enemies with one character (lets say Sonic) the enemies will only drop orbs for Tails and Knuckles. WHY? Some half assed attempt at getting the player to play more as the characters who are shit to play as?
Actually that seemed really reasonable to me. Remember, your lead character gets a level-up at each checkpoint or bobsled, as well as there being level up item boxes. If you run through half a level as Sonic, you're still going to pick up a level up or two for him, while the level ups from enemies will help make sure Tails and Knuckles aren't useless when you do need them. It also gives you better odds for getting the level up that you need; if it was completely random, it's a 1/3 chance of any specific color. But with this, it's 1/2 as long as you aren't using that character.

I do agree that it's a bullshit system that really should not have been in the game, but I think this bit makes it less crappy, not more.

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