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YelloGecko

What was the problem with Heroes?

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Ah, Sonic Heroes. Played it last night on a friend's Xbox, although I've first played it on my Gamecube.

Sure, I love that they tried to make the level art-design resemble the Genesis/Megadrive games of old, and the music was really good. And I wish Sonic Team would think about using that art design again....

...But that's where the good things end.

The models for all the characters are extremely ugly and overly shiny. Special stages were a pain. Team Chaotix had some terrible missions. Characters talked ALL THE TIME. Even mentioning "the power of teamwork" makes me cringe. Team gameplay was terribly flawed and obnoxious. Character overload. Game controlled worse than SA2 (which is just plain bad). Physics are crappy again. Overly linear. Goofily embarrassing storyline. More reused concepts (a billion chase scenes). Script errors and crummy dialouge (look at all those Eggman's robots!). Ryan Drummond overdid it. Tails' voice is abysmally disguisting. Characters were flanderized (Knuckles is stupid, Charmy is annoying, Amy is obsessive over Sonic). Metal Sonic was a disgrace and Eggman was tortured through the entire game. Homing-Attack-fest. Experience Orbs. Bland enemy designs.

So yes. I think it sucked.

Edited by Azukara

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I appreciate your opinion, and I agree with you in that Heroes analysis, but you say you dislike this more than Sonic 06... when Sonic 06's problems mirrored that of Heroes (x2) yet had none of the positives to counter it. I'm a bit confused. Oh well. :)

Actually, I said I hated abit less than S06, I said I disliked it more than Shadow. ;)

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I didn't mind Heroes at all, thought it was pretty good.

After being totally disappointed with Sonic Adventure 2 , I could not wait for the next game which was 3 years away at that point.

Inbetween the wait I bought Sonic Mega Collection, which was awesome but also craved something new.

When Heroes came out it was a breath of fresh air, the game was fun, the story was good, the stages and music were awesome and *Spoilers* Eggman wasn't the last boss :D

Played the game to death, got all the top ranks etc..

Went online to see what people had to say, didn't understand why people didn't like it.

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My problem with the level up system isn't so much in the system itself but how weak you are when you aren't; flight mode is almost useless outside of designated sections when below level 2, speed mode really only feels "right" when on level 3, and fighting... is okay, but the improvement from level 0 to 1 is far better than any of the other transitions. I'm fine with the system, it's how they implemented it that bothered me.

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I didn't mind Heroes at all, thought it was pretty good.

After being totally disappointed with Sonic Adventure 2 , I could not wait for the next game which was 3 years away at that point.

Why were you disappointed with SA2?

But anyway, with Sonic Heroes, it was OK. I'd probably give it a 6.5 out of 10. (and BTW I have the PS2 version) The controls are fine, X jumps, Square attacks, Circle and Triangle change characters, and R1 does the Team Attack. (not sure what the controls are like on the GC or Xbox versions, but I remember playing the demo of the Xbox version once at the store) However, the graphics look pretty bad though, looks way too shiny, and since when are furry animals like a fox or a rabbit shiny? Also, the levels were too long, most of the music sucked (I like the music that plays on the first boss though, and I like the song What I'm Made Of as well), and the story and dialogue felt too childish.

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I found there were quite a few gameplay issues:

-When I tried to select Tails by pressing triangle it would switch to Knuckles or Knuckles to Sonic and vice versa.

-On the Bullet Station level, if you didn't switch to fly formation quickly after you were shot out of the canon, you would end up running off the edge of the metal grate into the pit below.

-If Sonic was hit by an enemy causing him to fly off the stage his retard companions would follow him off (they could have just kept Knux and Tails alive to allow gameplay to continue).

And like Emma said, the characters were shiny! Little furry animals shouldn't be shiny, the only ones I would accept are Omega, Vector and Espio.

And as others have mentioned the Chaotix missions were tiresome, especially if you were trying to get all A ranks and you had to find every single item in the stage.

The story was crap having little or no plot. Team Sonic wanted to stop Eggman, Team Rose wanted to find their friends, Team Dark wanted to find Eggman it was all a mish mash of plotlines getting tangled up. The only halfway decent one was the choatix trying to earn a bit of cash.

It also got really boring that the characters all played the same stages just some shorter than others. What happened to SA2s stages where every character had a different set of levels unique to them?

The good points:

-The music was still good

-Some of the levels were fun to replay and you got given missions to add to the replay value

-The character interactions were quite funny, especially when Vector shouts at Charmy. They reacted how they normally would if they were together.

-It had a lot of options for multiplayer, meaning the fun could go on for hours if you were playing with friends.

So it had its fair share of problems but it wasn't completely horrible that I would throw up playing it.

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It was briiiiiiiiiiiiiilliant!!!! :), the graphics were pretty crap though, cos I didn't like the shinyness of them, or that they had smaller bodies and bigger heads :(, but the levels were something :), like in the style of the mega drive levels, only in 3D, but because of fiddly controls, It could'nt simulate the 2D style in 3D, real shame :(, the music was definetly something, i loved the plot, it was screaming "make a movie, make a movie, make a movie!!!!...." especially with the cut-scenes (at the time when it was released), the team-gameplay i loved after getting the hang of it :), multiplayer could've been better though : /, collecting the chaos emeralds through special stages provided replay value, even though the special stage formula needed a little improvement, if it had the time and effort put into it like some modern sonic games (Unleashed 360/PS3, Sonic Rush series and Rivals series) it could've been a real gem, but to me, its a fairly decent title :)

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Out of all of the Sonic games I have Heroes has always been my least favorite. I don't hate it, I don't dislike it, it's just mediocre at best. I liked it enough to buy it, sell it, miss it, and buy it again in a few mere months.

However, when I actually do play it (and that's when I'm really bored), I always think, "This could have been something, where did it go wrong?"

The level designs were wonderful. The special stages were a great comeback after so long of them not being in 3D games. And the concept of three characters with different abilities could be amazing if executed properly. I mean Sonic Advance 3 is proof that using more than one character can be done. Even the camera angles and controls worked perfectly... well except for the fact that o is select in the PS2 version. It should be x!!!

So when I think about it, I believe that everything else in the game went sour, most of all the script. The script was horrendously cheesy with such wonders as, "A date to die for", "Show him the real power of teamwork", and, "Because we're Sonic Heroes!" And as if that wasn't bad enough the constant chatter during levels was unnecessary.

I'm sure there's more that I'm missing, but I want to hear other opinions. Where did Heroes go wrong? And how could it be fixed?

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I say it went wrong with the fact that the levels were so long, it made them feel very forgettable. I could remember the levels themselves, but they were so long that they couldn't give a lasting impression since by the time they were over you were begging for something new, except for Mystic Mansion. XP

That, and the controls were just in the toilet.

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I know I'm parroting earlier and more eloquent posts, but being in this same discussion elsewhere has prompted an easy response. To me, Heroes was quite the disappointment mostly because the team gimmick wasn't implemented to its fullest potential. No real strategy is involved in utilizing the characters well because all of them are completely nerfed and play the same as a result of the bland classes. Plus, the game tells you which characters to use too often and will even switch them out for you with those blasted gates. This level of shallowness and monotony in turn effects nearly every other component of the game, from the easy-to-figure-out enemies and puzzles, the identical campaigns, the ill-conceived and executed storyline, everything. And then, this is further compounded on by the fact that the game's controls can be schizo at times, either under or over-responsive. It's just such a juvenile and underwhelming game all around, especially when compared to the game that it came on the heels of, that I found myself bored with it. Admittedly, it's good for short stints, but I'm never motivated to complete the entire thing all over again or even just one campaign.

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I'm neutral about this game. The gameplay was fun most of the time, especially the latter ones; I liked switching the modes quite often. Between all four teams, Team Sonic is the one I play regularly, and my favorite levels are Rail Canyon, Final Fortress, and the final boss in Team Sonic's story.

What I dislike the most is the "story." Poorly scripted and felt like it was slapped on at the last minute. This is especially the case in the Last Story. The only exception is Team Chaotix's, as their squabbles gave me laughs.

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Is it just me, or was I just the only one who also got annoyed by the constant unnecessary talking that they did non stop?

In that part when I go through a lot of loops at once. Tails says "My head's spinning!" and all the characters have to throw some comment out like they've never been through a damn loop before. Whenever I fall from a very great height the characters are like "Aaaahhhhhhh!!!!" and "I'm falliiiiing!!!!" like this is their first adventure... Then they have to guide you through the whole level on what to do next, like "hit that switch over there!" so we can't find out for ourselves... and it goes on and on and they never shut up, and they're squeaky voices don't help either. Charmy's voice was a needle to both ears.

It just feels like a kiddy game... and then the next game "Shadow the Hedgehog" they try and make the game darker in tone, with all this cursing and shooting and nonsense. Sonic Team just doesn't know what to do. So I'm a bit disappointed.

Edited by Dr. Good Girl

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Level design: Colourful and wacky, exactly what I wanted. Every level had its own quirkiness and gimmicks. There was no physics involved however and the majority of the levels suffered from being built over a bottomless pit (ie, one distraction and you’re dead) and not having multiple paths (only the factory ruled on this). It also hardly changed from Team to Team, which made it repetitive (and sometimes, painful). The bonus stages were LOVE (nothing wrong to say about them), but the way to get there was retarded (a key, wtf).

Gameplay: I’m not fond of the co-op gameplay, but I’m not very bothered either. I’d preferred that sufficient skill would render any of the other two characters optional (like an “A rank” in Sonic Adventure 2). I loved that each level had different kinds of ways to interact with the level as well. My major peeves were that Knuckles couldn’t glide on his own (though I liked Rose and Chaotix’s updraft technique), the level up system (well thought but unnecessary) and Team Blast (even more unnecessary). I think that the overall team gameplay should’ve thought about well (different actions and gameplays for different Teams). I didn’t mind the Chaotix’ hunting missions. They were like Big’s fishing levels. To play once and never again unless you’re feeling like it.

Enemies: I liked the Egg Pawns: they were all different, structures, armoury and behaviour. I liked their emotions conveyed by pop-up balloons and I enjoyed that some of them were engaged in other activities (patrolling or sleeping) while they didn’t detect you. The problem was they got repetitive after awhile. Giving those more activities, sparse them over the level (but not as much as SA) and thinking about more models would have helped. A t elast they weren’t GUN robots though.

Bosses: It seemed that many of them weren’t that thought about. Many of them just seemed an upgraded version of another one. The arena, if it had only been one, would have been good. The flying fortress was another one and the Team Battle was just meh (random luck played more into this than skill).

Music: Lovely, there’s nothing bad to say about this. <3

Characters: I liked them all but it was painful to listen to Tails and Big sounding like retards. The characters were heavily flanderized as well, something I disliked a lot. Their over shiny models and them speaking all the time in-level did NOT help.

Story: I’m not a fan of overly complicated stories and Heroes had enough of mystery (aka retardness) as to why the other three teams appeared randomly to keep me interested. Everything fit at the end quite nicely and it brought no major bull to the franchise. It had Metal (a plus) being a manipulative bastard (another plus) baddass (yet another plus), though he was a whiny little one in the end (a minus). It also brought Shadow back (though I wasn’t happy with him in his spinoff) and the Chaotix (though no Mighty nor Ray). I admit it could've been better done though, but I liked the simple approach and I value it quite after the failure Shadow and 06 did in that department.

I like Sonic Heroes and except some gameplay issues, I never hated. Not loved as much as Adventures or Unleashed, but a very good runner-up. To me, these four are the great games post the classics (perhaps Riders qualifies as well, just for laughs). Anything else is just cringe-worthy. I dislike Rush, I dislike Advance and I find the Storybook meh (especially Secret Rings, grr).

Someone mentioned that Rail Canyon / Bullet Station are impossible not in Flight Formation. I thought this for a long time as well but then I changed my mind. It’s like playing safe and going slow on the final grinding level of SA2. You hate them but then when you get the hang of it, you love them. The controls of Heroes were a lot more hit and miss than SA2 though, that I admit.

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This was originally the opening post to a topic which was sadly deleted :(. I humbly think some of the issues I discuss merit conversation. :)

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Sonic Adventure (1998/1999) and Sonic Adventure 2/Battle (2001/2002) are regarded as the pinnacle of 3-D Sonic games amongst the Sonic fan base. The received overwhelmingly positive reviews from critics and fans alike (although their scores where immensely lowered when re-released). Commercially, Sonic Adventure was as expected the Dreamcasts most popular game, selling over 2.5 million copies, Sonic Adventure 2 didn't fare as well on the Dreamcast probably due to the Dreamcasts lack of popularity at this time. Sonic adventure 2 Battle did however do significantly better on the Nintendo Gamecube, it was one of the best selling Gamecube games selling over 1.44 million units in the United States alone, . Most recently, Sonic Unleashed (2008) seems to be pressing toward reaching the level of love from fans as did the former Adventure titles, selling collectively over 2.4 million copies. Controversially, Unleashed received weaker reviews than that of the Adventure titles, Sonic and the Secret Rings and Sonic Heroes. Nevertheless, the majority of fans and a great many of non-Sonic gamers enjoyed the game thoroughly; the best 3-D Sonic game since SA2...or... maybe...Heroes.

Now, that brings us to Sonic Heroes, a game released in late 2003 early 2004. This game is very, very underrated. Critically it wasn't quite on par with the Adventure games, the better versions of the game pushed out 7+ rating averages. IGN for example gave Heroes (Gamecube and Box) an 8.0 and Gamespot a 7.5. A near universal statement in many of the reviews one will find is a claim along the lines of this game being closer to Sonic's 3-D roots or was step in the right direction (how many times have we heaaard that expression?). Commercially this game is the second best selling Sonic game ever (AND ITS 3-D?!) selling over 5 million copies if memory serves me right.

The fandom however isn't so praising of the game.Many love it and many hate it.This game seems to lack a home in an agreed upon era of Sonic history, it is the dividing line between the post-golden yet good years of Sonic and the *ahem*... age of absolute and utterly reprehensible Sonic games (Shadow The Hedgehog, Sonic Next).

By no stretch of the word is the game perfect, it has its flaws and doesn't deserve to be regarded as the Sonic Adventure titles equal. I did however eliminate some undesired forms of gameplay.I just feel many of the fan bases criticisms of the game neglect the more important matters of a Sonic game, such as gameplay. A typical crticism of Heroes will be along the following lines, "Heroes? Heroes was ok at best, the plot suckkkked!! they didn't even explain how they arrived at the next level, Oh and I hated most of the script; SONIC HEROESS"! *gasp*, agreed, the plot was a lot smaller and insignificant; there was no explanation of how the characters arrived at new levels. hmmmmm, sounds reminiscent of Sonic 1,2,C-D and Sonic 3 and Knuckles (Although S3&Knuckles had level introductions its story contrary to what many fans claim was still small).As for the script sucking, or more specifically being chessy, I feel that this is an exaggeration and a case of overlooking the chessyness of past sonic titles. While It's script was NOT one of the best in the series, the phrases 'Superpower of teamwork" (I personally don't find when Sonic said this in last story as nearly appealing as many do) and "Were Sonic Heores" are grossly blown out of proportion(Still however, the script was better than that of Shadows and Next Gens). Sonic Adventure 2's sad ending was slightly damaged by corny dialogue itself, "Lets go home, TO The Planet As Cool and Blue As me!" "But what I do know is we all did it together!".And yes Team Sonic theme is chessy (maybe intentionally?)but knuckles theme in Sonic Adventure is so...so...odiously corny and whose cheesiness is only magnified by the fact that the song, unlike Team Sonics, takes itself seriously.

All in all Sonic Heroes deserves more merit than it receives. Critically a good game, commercially superb, historically the second best selling Sonic game. What do you guys think? what do you guys agree with, if anything? What are your sentiments toward Sonic Heroes?

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just 'cuz the games after it were worse does not make it better. Here is my main criticism with Heroes:

There reely isn't that much of a story it was just Sonic characters doing stuff until the end where the story finaly apears. People could argue that team dark had a story and while I will say it had more story than the other even then it seemed kinda downplayed. Now some people like a game with very little story(and I guess in that sense it does go back to its 2D roots)but with no good story to distract me from the rather broken controls I can't see myself giving heroes a good score.

Although if I had to give it points for something it would probably be for giving some well enjoyed Nolsalgia. I mean some great forgotten characters(Metal Sonic and Espio to name a few)but I don't think nolstalgia,as enjoyable as it is,I don't think it should be able to give Heroes a free ride into the good Sonic game section.

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^^No, there wasn't much of a story in heroes, it was rather peripheral for the most part although Darks was pretty entertaing to me. I don't think the story was bad, it was just a little underdeveloped. I thought the idea for Metal being the main villain and willing to take matters into his own hands to defeat Sonic interesting, not to mention a nice amount of character development for Metal. While I agree Sonic Heroes wasn't a classic (Sonic 1,2,3,knuckles,CD)nor great(SA1,SA2, arguably Unleashed) It was good (Secret Rings, Majority of the Hand held games).

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I'll just say up front that I think it was a game that looked better than it played. Some of those environments were just awesome fun to look at as I whizzed through (the haunted mansion, and the fleet stage high in the sky, I forget their names), but compared to SA2, I found the controls too much on the fudgy side, and a lot of places where I could die from things that just plain weren't my fault (bad camera angles, rails or jumps that dumped me in bad places depending on whether or not I was holding the control stick at the time, etc.)

So, in the end, Sonic Heroes was one of those games I wanted to like, but I just didn't really have much fun playing after it was all said and done.

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I'm always amazed by people saying "there's no story in Heroes!!". There is one, with most of its elements scatterred through the levels if you pay attention. Not everything must be told to you, just pay attention ;)

I don't have to post that wall of text explaining it, do I?

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Ignoring the fact that the plot was a bit lame, the character control was more than a bit off, and the fact that you had to complete the game four times before you could access the final level, the straw that broke the camel's back for me was the level-up system in the game. It all but ruined the game for me.

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Yeah having to complete the game four freaking times was overkill. It was nothing new in the series though, SA had you playing with Sonic,Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Gamma and worst of all BIG. SA2 had only two teams but the traditional Sonic gameplay was diluted with the indulgence of 2/3's of the game being composed of alternative game-play styles. I don't why fans often forget this...

Now that I think about it, you replay stages in SA to a lesser degree. Tails replays Sonic's levels with minor differences and are abridged.

Edited by jonathan

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One of the good things Sonic Heroes had going for it were the action lines during battle in power formation.

Knuckles: Shi! Raw! Shi! Raw! Shi! Raw! Haaaa!!

Omega: Annil-charge! Annili-charge! annili-charge! Fire!

Big: Didn't really have anything, but does say 'towre' everytime he swings that bobber around.

Vector: Ha! Ha! BBBBBBBUUUUUUUAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!

C'mon, you guys know you never got tired of hearing all this endlessly while playing, right?

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