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I have a plan to "fix" Game-Canon Amy Rose

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2 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Eh, I don't think Amy will even have that dynamic with Sonic in the games because she isn't intended to have that dynamic with him. I guess differences between East and West and all that. Especially when Japanese fans seem to completely ignore what they did with her in Lost World and Boom...uh, Toon.

 

I mean, yes, we're on about how to fix her theoretically, but I dunno whether SoJ would do any of this outside of games and media where others have the reigns. 

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It doesn't really make her a particularly good character sadly, but I know Japan tend to care more about archetypes and cliches than things with depth most of the time. 

I don't see much modern Japanese products anymore so I can't say much about now, but I don't think you can say Japan was the only one relying on archetypes and cliches back then. However I do feel Japan prefer characters to keep certain major traits that describe them and try to separate fantasy with reality, while the west prefer characters to change over time and try to make fantasies more realistic. I don't know how to describe it, but to me Japan is more "watching characters do something/I want to be like them" while the west is "feel what characters are doing/they are like me". Not all of them, of course.

But I don't think SoJ can "fix" Amy in the way western people want them to. As I said, the game doesn't have the concept of time; each game isn't a continuity of another unless marked, so each game/character has to be made so new players can start anywhere. They can't have a character suddenly change in one game like how Tails started kinda boasting about his achievement and having a disagreement with Sonic out of no where in Lost World. It has to be more simple like how Shadow is always the serious I-Don't-Care guy but you can see some slight detail that show he has changed only some may notice (saving Rogue and later when she was attacked motioned as if to protect her in 06). 

Kind of off-topic, I wonder if how Amy (or any other character) is portrayed is somewhat different from region to region. I got into Japanese Sonic first so I don't play/watch any English versions, but I see people comparing the two and saying "they are more/less X than the English ones!" because the lines are changed. Also voice acting, because they show what the characters are feeling or thinking without words. Maybe that's why it's hard for me to understand the problem, they are portrayed differently?

 

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9 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

As I said, the game doesn't have the concept of time; each game isn't a continuity of another unless marked, so each game/character has to be made so new players can start anywhere. They can't have a character suddenly change in one game like how Tails started kinda boasting about his achievement and having a disagreement with Sonic out of no where in Lost World.

Isn't that exactly the kind of format where you can make sudden changes to the characters? If the series is designed so that the games are mostly taken individually rather than as part of a larger continuity so new people can jump in at any point, what's stopping them from just treating the next game as a new start for how they write a character?

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5 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You realize she only became a heroine five years after her debut right?  

Exactly, she was never meant to be one of the "core four." She was always meant for a more minor role.

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Isn't that exactly the kind of format where you can make sudden changes to the characters? If the series is designed so that the games are mostly taken individually rather than as part of a larger continuity so new people can jump in at any point, what's stopping them from just treating the next game as a new start for how they write a character?

I meant that since Tails' core character is his humbleness and kindness, it's not a good change because Lost world just threw that out the window and tried to make him into a different character than what he is supposed to be. Tails doesn't act like that, because his personality doesn't make him do that. I wanted to say that if they wanted to "change" someone in the game they have to be in character, keeping their main characteristic that define them.

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Just now, reflection_of said:

Exactly, she was never meant to be one of the "core four." She was always ment for a more minor role.

Knuckles was never meant to be apart of the "core cast" either, but they've just been shoving him in anyway...despite how little sense his appearances made from a story perspective.

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3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Knuckles was never meant to be apart of the "core cast" either, but they've just been shoving him in anyway...despite how little sense his appearances made from a story perspective.

At least Amy doesnt have something massive, green or floating she needs to be worried about.

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You realize she only became a heroine five years after her debut right?  

Exactly, she was never meant to be one of the "core four." She was always meant for a more minor role.

What arbitrary standards does someone need to meet to qualify as a main character that apparently Amy doesn't meet?

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2 hours ago, reflection_of said:

Exactly, she was never meant to be one of the "core four." She was always meant for a more minor role.

What does this even mean?  She had a passive role in her debut then proceeded to be the fourth playable character in every single multi-character spin-off (Drift, R, The Fighters etc) until Sonic Adventure and Sonic Advance cemented her as a protagonist via a playable role in a main series game.

25 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

What arbitrary standards does someone need to meet to qualify as a main character that apparently Amy doesn't meet?

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(That is to say of course, no girls who are typically cute girly girls allowed, even though Amy has achieved far more than Rouge has done in the series and has ten times the confidence of Blaze).

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7 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

What arbitrary standards does someone need to meet to qualify as a main character that apparently Amy doesn't meet?

I feel that's a question that should be asked for every character over what qualifies them as a main character, because one can easily put Cream of all characters as one of the main cast for being around them a lot. 

Usually the standard is a long-winded way of saying "I have to like them," or my personal favorite "they were around during the Genesis" - it's those arbitrary standards that I think we're better off not having a "Core Four" and should just have the main hero and main villain as the core characters.

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55 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

I feel that's a question that should be asked for every character over what qualifies them as a main character, because one can easily put Cream of all characters as one of the main cast for being around them a lot. 

Usually the standard is a long-winded way of saying "I have to like them," or my personal favorite "they were around during the Genesis" - it's those arbitrary standards that I think we're better off not having a "Core Four" and should just have the main hero and main villain as the core characters.

In this case, that doesn't even matter;Sega clearly bills her, Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles as the primary four protagonists along with Eggman; note how they're on nearly all of the promotional material and are the four most recurring characters in Sonic Boom when no other character is.

How you feel about Amy really doesn't matter when Sega have clearly laid this out. This mindset that "Oh she needs to be super badass with a Y chromosome to be a REAL hero" is fucking ridiculous to be honest.

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It's also worth mentioning that Blaze and Rouge as alternatives to Amy, are both bogged down by complicated backstories, being a government agent and from an alternate dimension respectively.  These are important parts of their character and it'd be a shame to throw them away, because while situational, they could provide a very interesting role in a story that plays to the strengths of these backstories.

Amy meanwhile is an all-rounder with no specific narrative ties to the world, much like Sonic and Tails.  Knuckles does have baggage like Rouge and Blaze, but sort of gets a free pass as a legacy character I guess.  Granted I prefer the power trio of Sonic, Tails and Amy over Sonic, Tails and Knuckles.  Granted, biased coz Amy is a fave character and Knuckles isn't, but I dunno I just really like seeing Sonic, Tails and Amy play off each other.  Knuckles is always just kind of... there.  The only game where he did anything specific was in Zero Gravity where his knowledge of ancient legends and treasure finally actually came into play in a plot unrelated to Angel Island.

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9 hours ago, reflection_of said:

But the master Emerald was rebooted out of the series way back in 06. 

 

yeah, no. 06 didn't rebooted anything, except itself.

13 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

In this case, that doesn't even matter;Sega clearly bills her, Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles as the primary four protagonists along with Eggman; note how they're on nearly all of the promotional material and are the four most recurring characters in Sonic Boom when no other character is.

How you feel about Amy really doesn't matter when Sega have clearly laid this out. This mindset that "Oh she needs to be super badass with a Y chromosome to be a REAL hero" is fucking ridiculous to be honest.

Actually that is the point in reflection_of favor. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles were made with unique designs and powers, to be playable characters and big things. Amy didn't had any powers, her design was "Sonic in dress" and was made to be captured in a side game. She wouldn't be more important than Kalinka in Megaman or  Daisy in Mario. However time passed with no games, Sonic Adventure wanted many characters, so they remade Amy into a core cast. It wasn't a plan decision, just luck and being one of early characters. So fact that Sega pushes her in main cast means that 1 Yes she IS part of main cast 2 it's open to debate whenever she SHOULD be.

And remember, pretty much all classic fans love main trio, but Amy is more often then not classified as one of Sonic friends that 'ruined' this franchise.

With that said she works great (in current times), because of her simplicity. Knuckles devolved from Sonic's rival with backstory and own super form to idiot that hangs around for fanservice. Amy changed from Sonic fangirl to...Sonic fangirl. Tails had bigger roles in the past, but he started as sidekick and is sidekick now. Same reason why Rosalina, no matter how popular, shouldn't replace Peach.

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1 hour ago, JezMM said:

Amy meanwhile is an all-rounder with no specific narrative ties to the world, much like Sonic and Tails.  Knuckles does have baggage like Rouge and Blaze, but sort of gets a free pass as a legacy character I guess.  Granted I prefer the power trio of Sonic, Tails and Amy over Sonic, Tails and Knuckles.  Granted, biased coz Amy is a fave character and Knuckles isn't, but I dunno I just really like seeing Sonic, Tails and Amy play off each other.  Knuckles is always just kind of... there.  The only game where he did anything specific was in Zero Gravity where his knowledge of ancient legends and treasure finally actually came into play in a plot unrelated to Angel Island.

It's not just biased because of fave. It's just more logical for Amy to be part of trio instead of Knuckles. Hell, even Archie comics know that, which is why they kept Amy along side with Sonic and Tails, while Knuckles is off, being on his own adventures.

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You don't have to be immediately playable or have super powers to be a main character. Eggman wasn't; he's still a main character. (Ironically Amy became playable at the same time as Eggman via the Drift series but I guess girls have different standards to uphold.)

A main character is simply one that is recurring and prominent enough to be featured constantly in a work to be designated as such. Amy is a main character, just like Princess Peach is a main character, or General Pepper is a main character, or Cortana is a main character, or any other infinite list of non-playable and/or non-superpowered characters in games.

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But the master Emerald was rebooted out of the series way back in 06. 

 

yeah, no. 06 didn't rebooted anything, except itself.

In this case, that doesn't even matter;Sega clearly bills her, Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles as the primary four protagonists along with Eggman; note how they're on nearly all of the promotional material and are the four most recurring characters in Sonic Boom when no other character is.

How you feel about Amy really doesn't matter when Sega have clearly laid this out. This mindset that "Oh she needs to be super badass with a Y chromosome to be a REAL hero" is fucking ridiculous to be honest.

Actually that is the point in reflection_of favor. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles were made with unique designs and powers, to be playable characters and big things. Amy didn't had any powers, her design was "Sonic in dress" and was made to be captured in a side game. She wouldn't be more important than Kalinka in Megaman or  Daisy in Mario. However time passed with no games, Sonic Adventure wanted many characters, so they remade Amy into a core cast. It wasn't a plan decision, just luck and being one of early characters. So fact that Sega pushes her in main cast means that 1 Yes she IS part of main cast 2 it's open to debate whenever she SHOULD be.

And remember, pretty much all classic fans love main trio, but Amy is more often then not classified as one of Sonic friends that 'ruined' this franchise.

With that said she works great (in current times), because of her simplicity. Knuckles devolved from Sonic's rival with backstory and own super form to idiot that hangs around for fanservice. Amy changed from Sonic fangirl to...Sonic fangirl. Tails had bigger roles in the past, but he started as sidekick and is sidekick now. Same reason why Rosalina, no matter how popular, shouldn't replace Peach.

Whether she should be is irrelevant, the bottom line is that she's a main character NOW. Her not being playable on her initial appearance doesn't have anything to do with that.

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3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Whether she should be is irrelevant, the bottom line is that she's a main character NOW. Her not being playable on her initial appearance doesn't have anything to do with that.

We'll of course she is, and complaining of few people won't change it. But it doesn't make what they say 'irrelevant'. This topic is about expressing your opinion about Amy and that's what we're doing.

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It's not because Amy is a girl. It is because her girly-ness is obnoxious and annoying. She is not likeable or useful.

*RANT WARNING*

Spoiler

 

 

1. Her design is terrible. She is pink and whears a red tootu that shows her panties. She takes the term "monoeye" to the next level. She pretty much just looks like a dork.

2. Her abilities are too weak. In a franchise of elemental powers and time manipulation "hammer" does not stack up well.  Her hammer is not even strong enough to make her a power type and she cannot fly so she has to be a "speed" type despite being slower than knuckles! She can barely even defeat simple robots on her own. She is just a burden to Sonic. 

3. "I was afraid I would never be able to flirt with you again!"

4. Her gameplay is not good. The hammer is gimicky and unsatisfying to use. She is almost always painfully slow and never makes up for it. I would rather have fleshed out chaos powers or psychic abilities than derp around with a  hammer gimmick.

5. She makes the franchise look immature with her annoying girly girl stereotype trying to infect Sonic with her coodies. She even reflects badly on Sonic. I always here people say "Sonic can't be cool with such an annoying and unattractive girlfriend." Her very presence lowers the popularity of the whole fanbase. 

 

I apologize for the rant but I am really sick of people elavating this mediocre character to the same status as poor Knuckles or Tails.

In short I don't think Amy is a suitable member of the core cast due to her poor design, stereotypical personality,  and gimmicky playstyle. 

I think it is time I retire from this thread. I think I have allready made my point so I'll let all of you SonAmy shippers be for now.

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19 minutes ago, reflection_of said:

I think it is time I retire from this thread. I think I have allready made my point so I'll let all of you SonAmy shippers be for now.

 
ad hominem

(An attack directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.)

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Just now, reflection_of said:

I apologize for the rant but I am really sick of people elavating this mediocre character to the same status as poor Knuckles or Tails.

Why do you care about other people thinking Amy is important, that should not matter to you. It's just complaining that they have different opinions.

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11 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

In this case, that doesn't even matter;Sega clearly bills her, Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles as the primary four protagonists along with Eggman; note how they're on nearly all of the promotional material and are the four most recurring characters in Sonic Boom when no other character is.

But if that's the case, then where does that leave characters like Shadow? What does Sega bill him as? Because while he's not one of the primary protagonists or antagonist given he can and will oppose them both, he's promoted to the same extent as they are and is the only character aside from the Classic cast that is represented in Boom. And then there's Metal Sonic, who's been the exact opposite for the most part, but is given a lot of recognition as if he should be a main character.

These two pretty much represent where that whole Main character status gets muddy and arbitrary, often through bias - if one character hits all the check marks over what constitutes as a main character, doesn't that pretty much justify any other character that hits those same check marks?

Quote

How you feel about Amy really doesn't matter when Sega have clearly laid this out. This mindset that "Oh she needs to be super badass with a Y chromosome to be a REAL hero" is fucking ridiculous to be honest.

I take it this part was directed at someone else? Because I don't see how I implied that at all.

It especially doesn't make any sense with characters like Blaze and Rouge being far stronger than Amy is.

 

Quote

t's also worth mentioning that Blaze and Rouge as alternatives to Amy, are both bogged down by complicated backstories, being a government agent and from an alternate dimension respectively.  These are important parts of their character and it'd be a shame to throw them away, because while situational, they could provide a very interesting role in a story that plays to the strengths of these backstories.

I wouldn't say that for Rouge at least. Her being a government agent makes her just as flexible as Amy, nevermind that she doesn't really have a backstory beyond that and treasure hunting. You could literally have her involved in anything with just those two aspects of her character, even in a story like Lost Worlds.

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56 minutes ago, reflection_of said:


It's not because Amy is a girl. It is because her girly-ness is obnoxious and annoying. She is not likeable or useful.

*RANT WARNING*

  Hide contents

 

 

1. Her design is terrible. She is pink and whears a red tootu that shows her panties. She takes the term "monoeye" to the next level. She pretty much just looks like a dork.

2. Her abilities are too weak. In a franchise of elemental powers and time manipulation "hammer" does not stack up well.  Her hammer is not even strong enough to make her a power type and she cannot fly so she has to be a "speed" type despite being slower than knuckles! She can barely even defeat simple robots on her own. She is just a burden to Sonic. 

3. "I was afraid I would never be able to flirt with you again!"

4. Her gameplay is not good. The hammer is gimicky and unsatisfying to use. She is almost always painfully slow and never makes up for it. I would rather have fleshed out chaos powers or psychic abilities than derp around with a  hammer gimmick.

5. She makes the franchise look immature with her annoying girly girl stereotype trying to infect Sonic with her coodies. She even reflects badly on Sonic. I always here people say "Sonic can't be cool with such an annoying and unattractive girlfriend." Her very presence lowers the popularity of the whole fanbase. 

 

I apologize for the rant but I am really sick of people elavating this mediocre character to the same status as poor Knuckles or Tails.

In short I don't think Amy is a suitable member of the core cast due to her poor design, stereotypical personality,  and gimmicky playstyle. 

I think it is time I retire from this thread. I think I have allready made my point so I'll let all of you SonAmy shippers be for now.

This whole post just says to me that Amy's never going to please you as long as she doesn't fit into the stereotypical "cool" role like some other Sonic characters do. The quirkiness and lightheartedness she brings to the table is why a lot of people like her. You act like she's the "Embarrassment" the franchise that makes it look immature, but the truth is she's barely contributed to that stigma compared to other characters like Shadow, Silver, Knuckles and even Sonic at times. 

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