I have a plan to "fix" Game-Canon Amy Rose

[Scape]

12 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

But there isnt anything wrong with making her a tough girl to better fit with Sonic's crew, otherwise she is just yet another side character who is better in the dust bin of Sonic characters.

There can be a balance of the traits you want and the traits I want, sounds like a good character in there somewhere.

What exactly do you suggest?

[MadmanRB]

Well keep the motherly nature stuff as you suggested, to take notes from outside the Sonic lets look into other characters who to model this Amy on.

That character is Katara from avatar: the last airbender.

Now if you have never seen that series Katara was a girl who could use the power of water and had a very motherly personality.

She cared and watched over the others and was compassionate.

But she also had a mean streak if pushed, she was able to become not only the team mom but also one of the best fighters in the series.

Or how about another game character, Tifa Lockhart from Final Fantasy VII

Now for any reason why you never played this game Tifa was also sort of the team mother, kind compassionate but willing to fight as needed.

Or how about the Joss Weadon route and Willow from Buffy who was gentile and kind but a total badass when she was called upon.

Heck even go the my little pony route and talk about Fluttershy who is gentile kind and caring but if she needs to can fight and even was able to take on a dragon.

Other media has great characters who have examples of where to take the character, and I can go on all day on what other characters to base her on.

Heck even Ellen Ripley from Alien is a good mold and was only armed to the teeth at the end to save a little girl.

[Scape]

I can work with that, but I rescind my suggestion to end her crush on Sonic.

There shouldn't technically be anything wrong with liking Sonic and wanting to join him on his adventures. If there was, Tails wouldn't be one of the precious few characters still relevant. The series wouldn't have lasted 25 years. This very website wouldn't exist. Sonic shouldn't have a problem with Amy wanting to stick by him if he can trust that she doesn't need to be babysat, which really shouldn't be the case anyway. She's been playable more often than she's been kidnapped.

And make this her new character theme:

 

[MadmanRB]

Well the crush itself isnt bad but its sure as heck the execution that bothers the living crap out of me with Segasonic Amy.

Its okay for characters to have relationships even in a series like Sonic heck i still think the best girl for Sonic is Sally from SatAM despite the fandom hating her because she isn't Sonic's waifu or cannon or whatever.

The reason why Sally never bothered me is that I grew up before the adventure era and I got the Genesis when I was 10 (tells you how old I am here)

Yes Sally is "bossy" but she kind of needed to be that way in the context of SatAM.

Sonic was rebellious, arrogant, cocky as he is in the games and that personality needs its balance in a series where Robotnik is not a moron and called Robotnik not Eggman.

No that Robotnik was able to take over the world pretty much, sure he too had his faults but early 90's cartoon conventions were at play so that the hero would win.

Sonic to me needs that balance even in his mainstream incarnation, someone who can take charge and let him know that he isnt the end all and be all.

heck to that effect blaze is a better choice for Sonic than Amy.

You hate Blaze me I think she is probably the closest to Sally in the games universe so I guess Sally is out for you.

[Scape]

This isn't about Sonic having a girlfriend. Personally, I don't think he needs to be, or should be paired with anyone. This is about Amy avoiding the "dust bin" and continuing to be the female lead, without her character needing to be mutilated in the process.

[MadmanRB]

Well the thing is that Amy was intended to be Sonic's love interest Japan wise, so I was also going with the notion that Sonic and Amy were a pairing regardless of if we go for shipping or not.

Now me yes I really dont have an issue of Sonic being in a relationship as the core of the Sonic games is this idea is friendship if we go by what Generations put before us.

Now as for anything romantic well that is sadly a part of the issue with Amy as she was as i said meant to be a love interest.

For me Amy must be tackled from both ends, how she is a character and how she can fit into Sonic's roster.

And yes one can do this by putting the two in a relationship but it also isnt the only justification.

Character relationships is a key to a good series and in the current package that relationship is a bit of a mess outside of Generations and to a point Boom!

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

What exactly do you mean by Amy being intended to be "Sonic's love interest"? Sonic certainly hasn't shown much actual interest in her over the course of the series. Just because her personality revolves around her love for Sonic doesn't mean they're intended to be a serious pairing in the slightest degree, the way Sally and Sonic were.

I mean, seriously, nothing in this thread has to do with shipping. We're evaluating Amy's role as one of the main hero characters in the series, not a potential girlfriend for Sonic. I don't know where you're going with this...or what you're trying to say in general.

[MadmanRB]

Well the basis is that we must know where and why a character exists in a story and how to justify it in universe.

Form Sonic Teams perspective Amy is there to make Sonic fall in love with her, even with her being over excited about it its meant to be comedic on the lines of Pepe Le Pew.

For us she is there to annoy Sonic and just be there as a playable character

And for Sonic he has no interest in her even if the insistence of Sonic team is to force them together

Sadly it is quite evident that it is Amy is there solely to tease a possible love interest nothing more and this is why she seems so obsessive.

If one plays any Sonic game post adventure it is clear the path Amy was meant to have.

To pester Sonic until he finally warms up to her.

That is her role and we cannot deny it in game.

Out of game however the rules are different thus why this topic is here so we can suggest how to fix Amy.

As a character and as a possible love interest.

This is not with any shipping but working with the material that Sonic team gave us and moving our way out.

I think its possible to do both actually and even if she isnt Sonics love interest in someones mind that can be worked around too.

I know I dont like the notion of Amy being Sonics girlfriend but its there in the manual so we could work from there.

[Scape]

Sega.com: We get a whole lot of letters on this one: Do you think Sonic and Amy Rose will ever get married?

Yuji Naka: There will be hardly be any chance, I bet. Amy will continue to pursue Sonic all the time, but Sonic will not ever get married. I think so, because I cannot picture the image of Sonic that he is married and has his children! Also, I feel it is a more Amy's style to always chase Sonic.

 

I don't think their relationship was ever meant to be anything serious, but I think Amy was supposed to be Sonic's second follower.

 

[Lucid Dream]

6 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

To pester Sonic until he finally warms up to her.

That is her role and we cannot deny it in game.

Out of game however the rules are different thus why this topic is here so we can suggest how to fix Amy.

As a character and as a possible love interest.

I know I dont like the notion of Amy being Sonics girlfriend but its there in the manual so we could work from there.

Here's a dialogue excript from Sonic Advance 3

Amy       : I knew we were meant to be...

Sonic     : Together? No! No such thing!

* - Amy takes out her hammer.

Amy       : Why don't you just admit it!

Sonic     : L, Let's not use the hammer.

<game>    : You may select Amy now.

 

Rejection and abuse~ So romantic and sweet. Isn't it cute how Sonic is utterly terrified of Amy and runs away from her almost every single time he sees her? Isn't it sweet how Sonic left her in a pile of raining rubble in Sonic CD, and didn't care about her being taken hostage in Sonic Riders? Isn't it beautiful how Tails and Knuckles are both wary of Amy and try to help Sonic get away from her? If you're going to pretend the English manuals are canon, than I guess we have Sally Acorn as a canon character too. She was said to be in Sonic CD after all. 

Amy may be a part of the classic 4, but that doesn't mean Sonic is inclined to like her even remotely. You can judge from the evidence how much Sonic "likes" Amy.  

[E-122-Psi]

7 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Well the crush itself isnt bad but its sure as heck the execution that bothers the living crap out of me with Segasonic Amy.

Its okay for characters to have relationships even in a series like Sonic heck i still think the best girl for Sonic is Sally from SatAM despite the fandom hating her because she isn't Sonic's waifu or cannon or whatever.

The reason why Sally never bothered me is that I grew up before the adventure era and I got the Genesis when I was 10 (tells you how old I am here)

Yes Sally is "bossy" but she kind of needed to be that way in the context of SatAM.

Sonic was rebellious, arrogant, cocky as he is in the games and that personality needs its balance in a series where Robotnik is not a moron and called Robotnik not Eggman.

No that Robotnik was able to take over the world pretty much, sure he too had his faults but early 90's cartoon conventions were at play so that the hero would win.

Sonic to me needs that balance even in his mainstream incarnation, someone who can take charge and let him know that he isnt the end all and be all.

heck to that effect blaze is a better choice for Sonic than Amy.

You hate Blaze me I think she is probably the closest to Sally in the games universe so I guess Sally is out for you.

I think a key problem with Sally was that she was more detrimental to Sonic's personality in being a love interest than Amy. For Sally they wanted it to be more serious and Sonic on the verge of settling down with her, some future arcs even convey him as becoming her king. This to some is considered derailing to Sonic's character just to make the pairing work.

Not to mention Sally usually has that whole 'female is ALWAYS right' foliage of Sonic, always contrasting his on the fly ethics and the universe bending to make her look right about it. In other words Sonic always being made to take it slow. While having someone call out Sonic for his flaws isn't a bad thing, it was too relentless and one sided. Someone who always opposes him and makes his ethics look wrong ultimately makes him look incompetent (and to be fair meticulous strategics can be just as error prone as spontaneous ones, so it's not necessarily a good moral). This is why modern era/Boom Tails is setting up to be a better foil for Sonic, he has a contrasting direction and sometimes points out Sonic's shortcomings, but he also sometimes can do stupid things that oppose Sonic's way and can make him the competent one instead. It's even handed and it's not over focused on him being a smoochy love interest either (...well maybe...). Sally is always safeguarded and spared her dignity to be cliche straight man female and the supposed perfect fit for Sonic.

Hell, Boom Amy could better fit a better Sally approach since she also calls out Sonic's arrogance and recklessness but her own approach is just as often portrayed as deluded and making her a control freak, and Sonic is allowed to call her out back for it. The two characters take turns with the sanity ball depending on the circumstance, rather than one always being given the pedestal. This feels like a much healthier and more fleshed out relationship, even within Boom's more comical input.

[KoDaiko]

Game-canon wise Amy has a crush on Sonic. That everyone know.

Sonic's reaction changes depending on the game. You have some game that portray Sonic having some feel toward her and other game where Sonic treat her like crap. But generally, at least how the Sonic Team of Japan sees, he hates the hammer and is pushed by her aggressiveness but doesn't hate her as a person and see her as one of his good friend. 

I think Sonic is relatively chill on his treatment toward other characters. If he think the character is helpless and in constant threat like Elise, he may be protective. But other than that he's not as much. He's the type of character who save people, eliminate the danger threatening them, and immediately runs off to his next entertainment. So I won't be surprised if he saves Amy, puts her on the ground then runs off. That doesn't make him "cold" toward Amy, his job isn't done and shes safe now. As for the scene in Riders, a surprise attack on Eggman and blowing them away isn't the best move but I can't imagine him instantly plan some other smart option. Also he did state he thought Amy would be OK (which is funny and interesting, Sonic doesn't treat Amy like a "helpless girl" and instead like how he treats his other friends, while Amy want's to be treated with more care as a girl)

[MadmanRB]

6 hours ago, Scape said:

Sega.com: We get a whole lot of letters on this one: Do you think Sonic and Amy Rose will ever get married?

Yuji Naka: There will be hardly be any chance, I bet. Amy will continue to pursue Sonic all the time, but Sonic will not ever get married. I think so, because I cannot picture the image of Sonic that he is married and has his children! Also, I feel it is a more Amy's style to always chase Sonic.

 

I don't think their relationship was ever meant to be anything serious, but I think Amy was supposed to be Sonic's second follower.

 

The problem with citing Naka as a resource is that he wasnt the only person behind Sonics creation, its not like we can oint ot one originator here and say one one of them is true.

Naka was a spokesperson, its in the same vain as as asking J.J Abrams about Star Wars (or Star Trek for that matter)

 

Quote

I think a key problem with Sally was that she was more detrimental to Sonic's personality in being a love interest than Amy. For Sally they wanted it to be more serious and Sonic on the verge of settling down with her, some future arcs even convey him as becoming her king. This to some is considered derailing to Sonic's character just to make the pairing work.

Not to mention Sally usually has that whole 'female is ALWAYS right' foliage of Sonic, always contrasting his on the fly ethics and the universe bending to make her look right about it. In other words Sonic always being made to take it slow. While having someone call out Sonic for his flaws isn't a bad thing, it was too relentless and one sided. Someone who always opposes him and makes his ethics look wrong ultimately makes him look incompetent (and to be fair meticulous strategics can be just as error prone as spontaneous ones, so it's not necessarily a good moral). This is why modern era/Boom Tails is setting up to be a better foil for Sonic, he has a contrasting direction and sometimes points out Sonic's shortcomings, but he also sometimes can do stupid things that oppose Sonic's way and can make him the competent one instead. It's even handed and it's not over focused on him being a smoochy love interest either (...well maybe...). Sally is always safeguarded and spared her dignity to be cliche straight man female and the supposed perfect fit for Sonic.

Hell, Boom Amy could better fit a better Sally approach since she also calls out Sonic's arrogance and recklessness but her own approach is just as often portrayed as deluded and making her a control freak, and Sonic is allowed to call her out back for it. The two characters take turns with the sanity ball depending on the circumstance, rather than one always being given the pedestal. This feels like a much healthier and more fleshed out relationship, even within Boom's more comical input.

Well Sonic for America was much different than the games initially because how Americans interpret Japanese characters.

Again in context to SatAM Sally makes sense, if Sonic didnt have her he would be a robot in 10 seconds flat.

[Scape]

9 hours ago, Lucidream said:

Here's a dialogue excript from Sonic Advance 3

Amy       : I knew we were meant to be...

Sonic     : Together? No! No such thing!

* - Amy takes out her hammer.

Amy       : Why don't you just admit it!

Sonic     : L, Let's not use the hammer.

<game>    : You may select Amy now.

 

Rejection and abuse~ So romantic and sweet. Isn't it cute how Sonic is utterly terrified of Amy and runs away from her almost every single time he sees her? Isn't it sweet how Sonic left her in a pile of raining rubble in Sonic CD, and didn't care about her being taken hostage in Sonic Riders? Isn't it beautiful how Tails and Knuckles are both wary of Amy and try to help Sonic get away from her? If you're going to pretend the English manuals are canon, than I guess we have Sally Acorn as a canon character too. She was said to be in Sonic CD after all. 

Amy may be a part of the classic 4, but that doesn't mean Sonic is inclined to like her even remotely. You can judge from the evidence how much Sonic "likes" Amy.  

Sonic 06: Sonic is appreciative when she saves him from Silver.

Sonic Unleashed: He is explicitly saddened after she is unable to recognize him.

Sonic Lost World: She is given a Miles Electric, and there's no implication that Knuckles was supposed to have it instead

[Lucid Dream]

36 minutes ago, Scape said:

Sonic 06: Sonic is appreciative when she saves him from Silver.

Sonic Unleashed: He is explicitly saddened after she is unable to recognize him.

Sonic Lost World: She is given a Miles Electric, and there's no implication that Knuckles was supposed to have it instead

Sonic is infinitely more appreciative of Tails, Blaze and Knuckles whenever they help him. Wait, why wouldn't Sonic be appreciative of someone who saved his life? 

Sonic was sad that nobody could recognize him. And he was sadder when Chip told him that, moreso than Amy. Who wouldn't be sad if somebody told you that anyway? 

In Sonic Lost World, Amy stole the Miles Electric from Knuckles. Didn't you see him push Knuckles aside for it? Anyway, I'm 100% sure Amy could, and would threaten to beat up Tails for it.  

Thing is he hasn't abandoned any of his friends, ran away from any of them, or cruelly ignored any of them for almost the entirety of the game. Anyway, I doubt Sonic hates Amy, but there's nothing that shows he cares about her more than a stranger. Just because he isn't an absolute asshole to her 24/7 doesn't mean that when he treats her like a stranger he likes her. There's certainly more proof that Sonic dislikes Amy, but I think it's fair to just say he doesn't care about her at all. 

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

In Sonic Lost World, Amy stole the Miles Electric from Knuckles. Didn't you see him push Knuckles aside for it?

No?

Sonic's relationship with Amy is obviously more than treating her like a stranger. She's a friend and ally, she just gets on his nerves sometimes when she's pushing for a relationship that he's not interested in.

[Lucid Dream]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No?

Sonic's relationship with Amy is obviously more than treating her like a stranger. She's a friend and ally, she just gets on his nerves sometimes when she's pushing for a relationship that he's not interested in.

I was talking about a later scene. In that scene you can't tell whoose Miles Electric it is, but if Amy had one, than why would she hang out with knuckles? Anyway, those things are ambigous, and Tails made them, not Sonic, so it shows nothing about Sonics relationship with anyone. It's a moot point either way. 

Anyway, I know Amy is Sonics ally, but friend? How exactly? I'm very sure it's not natural for people to ignore their friends almost entirely aside from when they need them. I'm even more sure that friends don't "forget" about a highly anticipated outing. At best, Amy is a friend by name. 

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

I was talking about a later scene.

Do you want to dig it up and post a link? Because as far as I can tell it doesn't exist.

8 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

In that scene you can't tell whoose Miles Electric it is,

The caller ID seems to indicate that it's hers.

8 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

 but if Amy had one, than why would she hang out with knuckles?

They were working with Sonic and Tails to rescue the animals from Eggman.

8 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Anyway, I know Amy is Sonics ally, but friend? How exactly? I'm very sure it's not natural for people to ignore their friends almost entirely aside from when they need them.

That's kind of how Sonic deals with most people. He doesn't get especially close, except arguably with Tails.

8 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

I'm even more sure that friends don't "forget" about a highly anticipated outing.

What outing are we talking about, exactly?

[Lucid Dream]

22 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Do you want to dig it up and post a link? Because as far as I can tell it doesn't exist.

The caller ID seems to indicate that it's hers.

They were working with Sonic and Tails to rescue the animals from Eggman.

That's kind of how Sonic deals with most people. He doesn't get especially close, except arguably with Tails.

What outing are we talking about, exactly?

Spoiler

Right, I was using the wrong game. I was talking about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnQx8zle3iQ,  Anyway, those things are ambigous, and Tails made them, not Sonic, so it shows nothing about Sonics relationship with anyone. It's a moot point either way. The outing I'm talking about is the one revealed at the end of Black Knight.  Unless you think the events of Black Knight are canon (which is absurd), my point stands.  

Anyway, getting back to the main point, you just stated what I said before. Sonic deals with Amy like most other people. He doesn't treat her like his friends, Tails, Blaze, Knuckles or Emerl. Nor does he treat her as well as Shadow, who's definitely not Sonics friend. He doesn't get close to others, and Amy is no exception. 

 

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

The outing I'm talking about is the one revealed at the end of Black Knight.  Unless you think the events of Black Knight are canon (which is absurd), my point stands.

What reason do we have to count SatBK as not canon? And what reason do you believe their date was something Sonic was anticipating, rather than something he had been coerced into?

8 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Anyway, getting back to the main point, you just stated what I said before. Sonic deals with Amy like most other people. He doesn't treat her like his friends, Tails, Blaze, Knuckles or Emerl. Nor does he treat her as well as Shadow, who's definitely not Sonics friend. He doesn't get close to others, and Amy is no exception. 

Surprisingly, Sonic has different kinds of relationships with different people. Tails, Blaze, and Knuckles don't try to latch onto him like Amy does, so that kind of tension doesn't exist in the former cases like it does with Amy. That doesn't mean that he puts Amy on par with strangers, no more than Sonic taunting Knuckles mean that he's not a friend.

[Scape]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What reason do we have to count SatBK as not canon? And what reason do you believe their date was something Sonic was anticipating, rather than something he had been coerced into?

The date would explain why Sonic is holding two chili dogs at the start.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Scape said:

The date would explain why Sonic is holding two chili dogs at the start.

To be fair, we don't really need an explanation for Sonic to have two chili dogs.

[Lucid Dream]

15 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What reason do we have to count SatBK as not canon? And what reason do you believe their date was something Sonic was anticipating, rather than something he had been coerced into?

Surprisingly, Sonic has different kinds of relationships with different people. Tails, Blaze, and Knuckles don't try to latch onto him like Amy does, so that kind of tension doesn't exist in the former cases like it does with Amy. That doesn't mean that he puts Amy on par with strangers, no more than Sonic taunting Knuckles mean that he's not a friend.

I believe Amy was anticipating it. It's never nice to stand somebody up on an outing, especcially when they're anticipating it. Very cruel actually. I'd say Black Knight isn't canon because how on earth did Sonic leave that world? He was brought in by Merlina, but who would send him back? Merlina certainly won't be doing Sonic any favours after that thrashing (I can't remember if she lived afterward), and I can't see any of the knights sending off their beloved king back. 

I'm not saying Sonic doesn't have a different relationship with Amy. What I'm saying is that Sonic hasn't treated Amy as a friend. Sonic treats Knuckles as a friendly rival (which is practically a subdidivision of friendship). Sonic treats Tails and Blaze like close friends. But when has Sonic shown friendship with Amy? Ignoring somebody and avoiding them are signs that you do not want to be friends with someone, and Sonic does that far too often when Amy isn't actually being useful/detrimental. 

Anyway, that tension is more than enough to say that Sonic and Amy aren't friends. When Amy isn't helping Sonic, all Amy ever does is latch onto him obsessively or get in his way. She gets in Sonics way far too often to be a necessarily useful ally too.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree? I think the problem here is what we both consider friendship. 

[FriendBot]

I mean, if you really want to grab at straws to justify if Black Knight is canon; you can always consider in Unleashed HD, Amy asks if you can take her out on a date.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Merlina certainly won't be doing Sonic any favours after that thrashing (I can't remember if she lived afterward)

Dude, you ought to replay/rewatch these games before you try to argue about them, with gaps in your memory this big. Yes, Merlina lived, and there were no hard feelings between them; the whole point was that Sonic taught her to move on. So yes, we can safely assume that she sent Sonic back in the end, instead of making reaching assumptions to invalidate the whole game.

3 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

But when has Sonic shown friendship with Amy?

All the times that he's kept her along when she's shown up. Yes, he has a tendency to bolt when she gets clingy. But when she can hold that back, they're fine. If Sonic thought as poorly of her as you imply, he wouldn't stick around her at all.