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I have a plan to "fix" Game-Canon Amy Rose

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15 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Dude, you ought to replay/rewatch these games before you try to argue about them, with gaps in your memory this big. Yes, Merlina lived, and there were no hard feelings between them; the whole point was that Sonic taught her to move on. So yes, we can safely assume that she sent Sonic back in the end, instead of making reaching assumptions to invalidate the whole game.

All the times that he's kept her along when she's shown up. Yes, he has a tendency to bolt when she gets clingy. But when she can hold that back, they're fine. If Sonic thought as poorly of her as you imply, he wouldn't stick around her at all.

I wonder how the knights of the round table dealt with Merlina sending Sonic back. I ought to replay Black Knights though. Maybe I should stop making a bunch of questionable examples, and stick to a few hard examples. Stops the conversation from derailing to unimportant things too. 

Anyway, moving onto the bulk of the argument, I don't think Sonic hates Amy. I doubt he'd have the energy for that. Also, he's not that close minded, considering he'd even work with Eggman if he's willing and useful. Sonic does often run away from Amy without notifying her (particularly SA2 and Sonic Battle), and when he does let her stick around, he essentially ignores her and almost never looks at her. How do you shake Amy off anyway? I've already shown you how Amy reacts when she gets told "no". It's easier to just let her hang around considering she is useful at times, particularly lately. 

Again, I don't consider that friendship. Sonic is "fine" with the vast majority of people. Sonic doesn't shake off most people. A friend is somebody special and close. Sonic has never shown that he particularly likes her. If they were friends, I'd definitely call it a toxic relationship. 

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21 hours ago, Scape said:

God no.

*I don't read Sonic the Comic.*

Amy shouldn't need fit into the stereotypical "cool" role like some other Sonic characters do. The quirkiness and lightheartedness and motherliness she brings to the table is why I like her. It's why I prefer her to Blaze. She shouldn't need to be some "Girl Power" stereotype that uses a ridiculously dangerous weapon and swallows her affection for Sonic, only for the prick to still fail to respect her.

I remember Fleetway Amy being pretty boring, the 'normal' one of the group because of being made so competent and mature, rather than being allowed to have a sort of quirk to her. I remember liking the 'transitional' point for her, which was actually pretty much her games counterpart when made active (eg. the summer special spotlight story, where she childishly moans about Sonic leaving her behind only to take out a surprise badnik ambush single handed).

I think I remember seeing the outlines for E-102 Gamma's appearance in STC Online. It was more or less Amy stoically using a loophole malfunction on him. If that's an accurate continuation of STC Amy then I'd take games Amy anyway because that completely sucks all the heartwarming (if cheesy) emotion out of the robot's interaction with her ('I feel sorry for you, Eggman failed to give you feelings'), something even the Flanderized Sonic X Amy got down perfectly.

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37 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sometimes friendships are more casual than that. Most of Sonic's friendships are more casual than that, because of the kind of person he is. Amy falls into that category.

No, that doesn't make sense. I don't see Sonic running away from Tails or Sonic hesitating around Blaze. Actually, when Blaze gets upset or violent, Sonic confronts her and calms her down. Sonic doesn't show this "casual" relationship with Blaze and Tails, rather he's always friendly, very supportive and nice to them. If this "casual" relationship of running away, fear and ignoring is specific to Amy, I wouldn't call that a friendly relationship.

Sonic has always been friendly, kind and very supportive to his friends. Even Fleetway Sonic shows a great amount of care for his friends. Sonic doesn't give Amy this treatment though. 

 

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You keep focusing on the running away as if that's the entirety of their interactions. Like I said, Sonic tends to run when Amy gets too clingy, but that doesn't invalidate the rest of the time that they're working together. You're taking an old gag way too seriously.

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19 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

No, that doesn't make sense. I don't see Sonic running away from Tails or Sonic hesitating around Blaze. Actually, when Blaze gets upset or violent, Sonic confronts her and calms her down. Sonic doesn't show this "casual" relationship with Blaze and Tails, rather he's always friendly, very supportive and nice to them. If this "casual" relationship of running away, fear and ignoring is specific to Amy, I wouldn't call that a friendly relationship.

Sonic has always been friendly, kind and very supportive to his friends. Even Fleetway Sonic shows a great amount of care for his friends. Sonic doesn't give Amy this treatment though. 

 

Alright then. Let's say you're writing for a Sonic game and get an indisputable mandate from SEGA that Sonic and Amy need to be friends in this. Their personalities cannot be changed dramatically. What do you suggest?

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I dunno why there's an argument on whether Amy is Sonic's friend. I mean...there isn't suppose to be an argument here. Whether we like it or not, official materials directly and indirectly consider her as one of "Sonic's friends/buddies". Or if you want 仲間 then "Sonic's gang/crew".

Sonic's "friends" is very broad. Chaotix, Team Dark, Silver, even Jet in a way can be considered his "friends". If then why is Amy excluded? Do people see Amy as "Tails, Knuckles, Cream, etc...'s friend, but not Sonic's friend"?

Just because he shows some negative reaction on someone doesn't mean they aren't friends. Unless your idea of friendship is never fighting, never arguing, never getting upset at them, etc. All happy and nice. And his reaction to Amy isn't 100% run from fear.

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7 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

I dunno why there's an argument on whether Amy is Sonic's friend. I mean...there isn't suppose to be an argument here. Whether we like it or not, official materials directly and indirectly consider her as one of "Sonic's friends/buddies". Or if you want 仲間 then "Sonic's gang/crew".

Sonic's "friends" is very broad. Chaotix, Team Dark, Silver, even Jet in a way can be considered his "friends". If then why is Amy excluded? Do people see Amy as "Tails, Knuckles, Cream, etc...'s friend, but not Sonic's friend"?

Just because he shows some negative reaction on someone doesn't mean they aren't friends. Unless your idea of friendship is never fighting, never arguing, never getting upset at them, etc. All happy and nice. And his reaction to Amy isn't 100% run from fear.

It's pretty crazy to call all your allies and rivals friends. Do you call every classmate/coworker you've worked with or every competitor a friend? That's the loosest definition of friendship. 

"Nakama" is very different to "tomodachi". Nakama Is much closer to an acquaintance, while tomodachi is a genuine friend. Sonic has a lot of acquaintances, but only a few friends. Same with Amy, Tails and Knuckles are most certainly not her friend, but her acquaintances. Its such an easy concept.

And no, I never said a friend is that. Sonic has had far worse arguments with Tails and Blaze than with Amy. But at least Sonic cares for them enough to argue, he doesn't even bother with Amy. As you say, Amy is among the leagues of Jet, an acquaintance and possible ally/detriment.

A friend is somebody that you specially care for and like. Sonic doesn't show that he specially cares for or likes Amy to a similar degree to his other friends. Not running away from her all the time and ignoring her when she tags along simply shows that he doesn't hate her. But not hating does not immediately equal friends. Sonic treats Shadow much more like a friend, but they still aren't friends. 

As for what I'd do to improve it, I'd tell Sega to make Sonic talk to Amy. Sonic mostly ignores her existance. I think it's time for Sonic to actually properly confront her. She's less trigger happy now, and more mature. I think she can deal with rejection and some criticism now. 

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1 hour ago, Lucidream said:

As for what I'd do to improve it, I'd tell Sega to make Sonic talk to Amy. Sonic mostly ignores her existance. I think it's time for Sonic to actually properly confront her. She's less trigger happy now, and more mature. I think she can deal with rejection and some criticism now. 

Can we please drop the notion that she's literally insane?

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Anyway, I'm 100% sure Amy could, and would threaten to beat up Tails for it.

What about the Miles Electric is so important to Amy that she'd threaten to hurt Tails for it? And how in good conscience could Tails then let Amy look after the rescued Animal Friends if she's seriously that needlessly violent?

I disagree with the idea any Sonic game needs a scene where Sonic resorts to holding an intervention to reverse SEGA's garbage characterization. I'd like to declare that "Running away from her all the time and ignoring her when she tags along" is exactly what Sonic did to Tails at first.

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"Sonic pays no attention to his constant companion."

"Sonic puts up with Tails' constant trailing"

"He doesn't think much of it, and never sticks around all that long for Tails to get to know him."

"Sonic originally thought of him as (a) tag-along nuisance"

Tails was able to overcome this through persistence, respect for Sonic's interests and making himself useful whenever Eggman caused trouble. Sonic does not like being forced to babysit, but he really shouldn't be that impenetrable.

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1 hour ago, Lucidream said:

It's pretty crazy to call all your allies and rivals friends. Do you call every classmate/coworker you've worked with or every competitor a friend? That's the loosest definition of friendship. 

"Nakama" is very different to "tomodachi". Nakama Is much closer to an acquaintance, while tomodachi is a genuine friend. Sonic has a lot of acquaintances, but only a few friends. Same with Amy, Tails and Knuckles are most certainly not her friend, but her acquaintances. Its such an easy concept.

And no, I never said a friend is that. Sonic has had far worse arguments with Tails and Blaze than with Amy. But at least Sonic cares for them enough to argue, he doesn't even bother with Amy. As you say, Amy is among the leagues of Jet, an acquaintance and possible ally/detriment.

A friend is somebody that you specially care for and like. Sonic doesn't show that he specially cares for or likes Amy to a similar degree to his other friends. Not running away from her all the time and ignoring her when she tags along simply shows that he doesn't hate her. But not hating does not immediately equal friends. Sonic treats Shadow much more like a friend, but they still aren't friends. 

As for what I'd do to improve it, I'd tell Sega to make Sonic talk to Amy. Sonic mostly ignores her existance. I think it's time for Sonic to actually properly confront her. She's less trigger happy now, and more mature. I think she can deal with rejection and some criticism now. 

Nakama and Tomodachi overlap in meaning. Heck, if you google "nakama" ignoring OnePiece you get friend as one of their definition. The Japanese definiiton for nakama says "Anyone who you have something in common (job, interest, action, thought); a friend, or someone you know". The only difference is that tomodachi (friend) can be slightly more personal, willing to interact without a common interest. OK so Sonic knows everyone, and occasionally team up with them. The usual gang obviously side and support Sonic; the other guys, whether Chaotix, Shadow, or even Jet, usually never interact or compete with him but usually support him. So you can still call them a  "Nakama" if not a friend. But out of them, he occasionally hangs around with Tails, Knuckles, Amy, etc....To have fun. So it's safe to say they're his friends. You don't have to make it so complicated. To me this argument is similar to the Classic Megaman x Roll shipping; CAPCOM ships them and makes it very obvious without directly saying but people (mostly western) freak out and make excuses why they're not a thing (most common is "incest" despite them being robots w/o any biological ties).

I don't see Sonic as a guy having random chats with his friends. He'd throw cool quotes and witty remarks, but other than that it's usually something that is either important at the moment or something HE is interested in. (like talking to Tails about their airplane, invention, chaos emerald, current situation...) Without a common interest related with the current situation, its hard to have a decent conversation. And even with that, he's more of "less talking, more action" guy. 

Sonic isn't a nice nice buddy buddy person that constantly give affection either. At least, I don't think he's supposed to be. Knuckles occasionally do some dumb things, Tails sometimes get analytical, he doesn't respond to it unless it's directed at him or he need's their input. Sure he hangs around frequently with Tails and occasionally Knuckles, so you can call them "best friend" if you want. But would that mean everyone else isn't his friend? I'd say he doesn't hang around with others, especially girls, because (stereotypically speaking) they have different interests. Even Blaze, you can say Sonic interacted with her nicely because she isn't a girly girl and had a common goal to achieve. But that doesn't mean they aren't his friends. The only reason Sonic is hesitant or nervous around Amy is her action is directed at him. Without it he'd be quite chill like toward anyone else.

And even if Amy was mature enough, how about Sonic? Sonic is the type who doesn't give a heck about most things, even being confronted or threatened by danger, occasionally losing his temper but mostly never losing his cool. Yet he easily gets swayed (is that the right word?) by her "love". I can see him not used to being pursued this way, but his reaction isn't 100% disgust and fear. Not saying he has feels for her, but I don't think he would do this reaction if this was a random girl.

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3 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

I don't see Sonic as a guy having random chats with his friends. He'd throw cool quotes and witty remarks, but other than that it's usually something that is either important at the moment or something HE is interested in. (like talking to Tails about their airplane, invention, chaos emerald, current situation...) Without a common interest related with the current situation, its hard to have a decent conversation. And even with that, he's more of "less talking, more action" guy. 

Where are you getting all this information from? Sonic and Tails have had a lot of small talk throughout the series. Sonic has talked about many things that are irrelevant to him with Blaze and Shadow. He even attempts to initiate small talk with Silver and Shadow in RIvals 2. He makes a lot of small talk with Emerl and others in Sonic Battle. He talks a lot to Sharha, and a fair chunk is banter.  

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Sonic isn't a nice nice buddy buddy person that constantly give affection either. At least, I don't think he's supposed to be. Knuckles occasionally do some dumb things, Tails sometimes get analytical, he doesn't respond to it unless it's directed at him or he need's their input.  

Er, dude have you played Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic Rush Adventure? He literally floods Shadow, Tails and Blaze with compliments. Sonic has always extensively complimented the people he likes. Can we stop painting Sonic as this cruel and cold jerk?

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I'd say he doesn't hang around with others, especially girls, because (stereotypically speaking) they have different interests. Even Blaze, you can say Sonic interacted with her nicely because she isn't a girly girl and had a common goal to achieve. But that doesn't mean they aren't his friends. The only reason Sonic is hesitant or nervous around Amy is her action is directed at him. Without it he'd be quite chill like toward anyone else.

Yes, lets just degrade Sonic into a over-masculine stereotype that can't handle  girls. You do realize that Cream is the most girly character in the entire series, and Sonic is still her friend (not close, but still friends). Yes, I do think Sonic has more casual, less important friends like Cream. Again, if he treats Amy like everyone else, that means he is not treating her like a friend. And the fact that Sonic feels disturbed by Amy's actions towards him shows that there's a lot wrong with their relationship. 

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And even if Amy was mature enough, how about Sonic? Sonic is the type who doesn't give a heck about most things, even being confronted or threatened by danger, occasionally losing his temper but mostly never losing his cool. Yet he easily gets swayed (is that the right word?) by her "love". I can see him not used to being pursued this way, but his reaction isn't 100% disgust and fear. Not saying he has feels for her, but I don't think he would do this reaction if this was a random girl.

Except Sonic does care about stuff? Remember Emerl? Sonic cared a lot for him. The only time he got swayed by Amys feelings was when he started avoiding her at all possible costs in Sonic Heroes and Sonic Battle. Otherwise he never really ever pays her any attention.

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I disagree with the idea any Sonic game needs a scene where Sonic resorts to holding an intervention to reverse SEGA's garbage characterization. I'd like to declare that "Running away from her all the time and ignoring her when she tags along" is exactly what Sonic did to Tails at first.

Communication is not reversing any "garbage characterization", nor is it implying anyone is insane. When Sonic confronted Blaze in SRA, it was to calm her down and help her understand that she needs to be much more careful. Sonic should do the same with Amy, it'll help her move on in life at least and give her some real characterization. 

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Tails was able to overcome this through persistence, respect for Sonic's interests and making himself useful whenever Eggman caused trouble. Sonic does not like being forced to babysit, but he really shouldn't be that impenetrable.

Where did you get that excript from? I just find it strange that Sonic would be using Tails so much in Sonic 2, while convincing himself he is babysitting Tails. I don't remember him running away from Tails either. Why wouldn't he like helping kids, he was more than happy to help Cream several times. 

Anyway, where is any of the evidence of Sonic treating Amy well? There's bucketloads of evidence showing Sonic disliking or being very neutral towards Amy. How about you stop loosening the definition of friendship, or try to show how Sonic is such an emotionless jerk, and try to show how Sonic likes Amy more than Shadow at the very least. 

 

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I like Amy because she's cute and optimistic and spirited and jolly. Does a character like that just not have a place in Sonic? Was Sega trying to make a statement by ruining her?

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Practically every single Sonic character in the games has plenty of things people complain about concerning their portrayal over the last 10 years and then some. There's nothing particularly special about the way Sega has treated Amy. They've done a bad job portraying her in many ways, but the same can be said of Knuckles, Tails, and a whole slew of other characters. You could argue that they've done an even worse job with Amy, but even then, you're talking about a matter of degree, not kind. It's just pointless to act as though they're "out to get" Amy, not only because they obviously have no motivation to "ruin" one of their own flagship characters, but because there's no reason to act like Amy is being given some special treatment unique to her.

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