Compromise

[MetalSkulkBane]

I feel like I have very little to contribute to this discussion, since all was sad by people knowing more then me. Blacklighting's idea seems to make sense (reminds me of Sonic Spitball, in some parts possibly better). So 2 thoughts from me.

1 Lighting seem to struggle to deduce what should be imported from Adventure games. I'm not 100% myself, but SA1 was my first Sonic game and after comparing it to classics and Boost tittles, I don't think there is much to explain. Sonic Adventure is the closest  thing to making 3D classic game. I know it was detrimental to pure gameplay, but the experience was more fun, more absorbing.  And it didn't had boost problems you mentioned before. What I really want to keep from Adventure era are characters, stories, music, chao garden (which I don't care that much about, but some people loved it, why not bring it back?). No one wants mech shooting or treasure hunting back. Arguably they weren't bad, but they weren't bad, but definitely they weren't great.

2 Your idea might work, but I worry if Sega would want it (theorizing they could somehow take it). Like your video said, Sonic did good lately. If Sega finally stops releasing unfinished games, then Sonic is fixed. The problem is that Sonic isn't fixed "now everyone will be happy". It's "isn't perfect, but it's good enough" fixed. I suspect this is how Sonic future will look for now: either classic games Mania style, or returning to Boost formula, with 'eh' stories cause trying to take Sonic seriously is bad, with Shadow, Cream, Chaotix and everyone else kept for Olympics games and such. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but video at the top complain about Sonic constantly changing, and your idea is another change. So those are my predictions for the future.

[Blacklightning]

14 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

There's a lot of different Adventure subjects for one paragraph, and I don't really like quote dissecting anymore, so I'll just try and run through the list instead.

More characters is one of the things almost nobody but the bigoted dispute these days - I just disagree with the way Adventure games have handled it, and I don't mean that just because of the genre roulette. The Adventures played an asymmetric angle on most examples of character representation, which either resulted in some characters getting less actual game to play (even the difference between Sonic and Tails in SA1 is something like 4 entire stages if I'm remembering right) or results in a lot of padding that doesn't really feel like it has any weight on the story (a lot of Knux's levels in SA2 were basically this, and a lot of Silver's story feels like trying to chase Sonic to certain locations and just missing him 2 times out of 3). I don't feel like there's anything wrong with a singular story where the main character is completely interchangable based on the player's wishes, because usually it's the character mechanics and routing differences that give incentive to alternate between them.

Maybe there's a blend between the two still yet to be thought up? S&K may have had almost identical stage ladders, but both characters had substantially different endgames. I guess that's food for thought for when I next revise my own personal concept.

Adventure storytelling I don't really have any problem with besides that, as long as it leans to the Adventure side of things and not the ShTH/06 one. Music is so subjective (I don't even like Crush 40 personally, it bears saying) that we can't really make much of a meaningful discussion out of it, but what I can say for sure is that I like how SA2 tackled several genres at once when it wasn't defaulting to butt rock - a lot of times they were tailour built to the character rather than the level, but nonetheless genre variety in a Sonic game is pretty good where it happens.

Chao Gardens... to be honest I feel like they're a lot less integral to the identity of Adventure games than a lot of people give credit for. If anything, it's the other way around - Chao mechanics are built to depend on a core game, but the Adventures don't actually require them to function on any meaningful level, it's ultimately a side mechanic that doesn't benefit the main one at all. There's a few Chao threads out there already and I'm bound to have thrown my thoughts into at least one of them, but the tl;dr is that they're just as guilty of the same genre roulette shit mechs and treasure hunting pulled and it just doesn't make any sense to make an exception out of them. Personally I'd separate Chao from the games entirely so they can function as their own entity, but I'm sure they can still be tweaked so they actually fit in with the game they're attached to - I just don't think it's as important as a lot of Adventure fans think it is.

14 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but video at the top complain about Sonic constantly changing, and your idea is another change.

A change, yes, but a change with the intention of being inclusive to their demographs, of keeping it around and polishing it instead of throwing it out for another change. Jim's video, to my recollection, is describing innovation more for innovation's sake, to fix a lot of things that were never actually broken out of some misguided fear that they wouldn't be able to make Sonic sell if he weren't constantly changing, and that could literally not be further from the truth - franchises remain franchises because they have a guaranteed audience that loves their particular subgenre and design, and by chasing new fans at the expense of old you effectively piss both demographs off. Because the old are no longer being catered to, and the new will inevitably see it for the shallow pandering that it is. There's a pretty good reason you don't see Unleashed stealing many God of War fans.

I digress. The point is, passion, polish and fun will eventually speak for themselves, and the reason any of these splits in Sonic have individual fans at all is that each and every one of them still has ideas worth salvaging at the expense of all the junk that weighs them down. For better or worse, it turns out a lot of them aren't as mutually exclusive as people previously believed, hence, thread. If people have difficulty taking Sega's word for that, well frankly I don't blame them - their PR is fucking awful and needs to know exactly what transparency means.

[Diogenes]

15 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

The Adventures played an asymmetric angle on most examples of character representation, which either resulted in some characters getting less actual game to play (even the difference between Sonic and Tails in SA1 is something like 4 entire stages if I'm remembering right)

You know, if they went with a 3&Kish "everyone plays basically the same" format, I wouldn't mind if certain characters had shorter story modes than others, but opened up all levels to them in a level select or "classic" mode after beating it.

[Danj86]

I'm actually quite bad at the 3D boosting levels. I had no real problems with games like Rush, but with Unleashed, Colours and Generations, my reaction time just wasn't making much of a smooth run. Sure, I can still complete the levels but I will frequently trip over small curbs or press jump too hard and do a normal jump instead of the hop, losing all my momentum in the process or smash into walls that need to be rolled under...as well as miss alternate paths on later runs due to simply forgetting them. There was one disastrous incident in Colours were I didn't turn sharply enough on a corner and flew off into the distance.

I have no problems with the straight bits when you need to zip left or right to avoid obstacles.

That's always been my main problem with the boost function, your going so fast that I can't react to the platformer bits in time. The boost is optional though so I guess you could try playing without it, but it'll take much longer. For someone like me, I'd say the spindash would be much easier to manage as you don't go as fast but still smash through any potential threat as you progress. They didn't really do that in the Adventure games though...you could spindash them but after the impact it would stop you dead.

On a side note, I freakin' loved the light speed dash as it was used in SA2. There is nothing more satisfying then smashing a series of robots and then flying into a bunch of rings close by without touching the ground, regaining lost momentum in the process. ^^

[Bowbowis]

26 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

More characters is one of the things almost nobody but the bigoted dispute these days - I just disagree with the way Adventure games have handled it, and I don't mean that just because of the genre roulette. The Adventures played an asymmetric angle on most examples of character representation, which either resulted in some characters getting less actual game to play (even the difference between Sonic and Tails in SA1 is something like 4 entire stages if I'm remembering right) or results in a lot of padding that doesn't really feel like it has any weight on the story (a lot of Knux's levels in SA2 were basically this, and a lot of Silver's story feels like trying to chase Sonic to certain locations and just missing him 2 times out of 3). I don't feel like there's anything wrong with a singular story where the main character is completely interchangable based on the player's wishes, because usually it's the character mechanics and routing differences that give incentive to alternate between them.

I get where you're coming from but I have to disagree with you. People like these characters for more than just their gameplay: They all have individual personalities, backgrounds, goals, and talents which draw people to them. As such I think the idea of having an interchangeable protagonist is actually a bigger disservice to the characters than unequal story length. I'd much rather see a character get a small, but unique, role that's specifically tailored to them than a large, but generic, one-size-fits-all role. In other words if I'm going to be playing Shadow's Story I want a story about Shadow being Shadow: His character, his status, his abilities, and his motivations. Even if that story were only four levels long I'd still prefer it to a story about Shadow being a generic hero to the point where you could replace him with Charmy and not miss a beat. A disparity in level-count can easily be remedied by the addition of a "Free Mode" which lets you play as any character in any stage you've cleared. A generic story on the other hand has no such fix.

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

54 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

I get where you're coming from but I have to disagree with you. People like these characters for more than just their gameplay: They all have individual personalities, backgrounds, goals, and talents which draw people to them. As such I think the idea of having an interchangeable protagonist is actually a bigger disservice to the characters than unequal story length. 

That's kinda missing the point tho.

No one's denying that people like the characters more than their gameplay, but their gameplay tends to take priority interest to those playing the game in platformers and adventure games compared to other genres. Ideally, you'd want the characters to be recognized for all the care put into them, but the simple reality is that if the gameplay isn't decent, all but the more dedicated and interested fans aren't gonna be interested in the other things About the character. Even worse that the lame gameplay makes them more critical of said characters, with Sonic 06 being the main example of people outright scapegoating them for most of the problems in the series until Unleashed showed they're not the ones at fault.

[Bowbowis]

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

That's kinda missing the point tho.

No one's denying that people like the characters more than their gameplay, but their gameplay tends to take priority interest to those playing the game in platformers and adventure games compared to other genres. Ideally, you'd want the characters to be recognized for all the care put into them, but the simple reality is that if the gameplay isn't decent, all but the more dedicated and interested fans aren't gonna be interested in the other things About the character. Even worse that the lame gameplay makes them more critical of said characters, with Sonic 06 being the main example of people outright scapegoating them for most of the problems in the series until Unleashed showed they're not the ones at fault.

I never said anything about the quality or style of gameplay. Obviously those are both important and shouldn't be allowed to go to shit. My point is that Blacklightining's proposal fails to account for the non-gameplay related reasons that people like the other characters. A generic, one-size-fits-all story necessarily precludes a character's unique attributes from being explored to a significant degree. For instance you couldn't have a story about Knuckles or anything pertaining specifically to him because the plot needs to be able to work with Amy, Silver, Tails, and Blaze in the leading role too. That's why I suggested the inclusion of a "Free Mode". It can help remedy the gameplay problem that Blacklightning was addressing (not every character gets the same number of levels) without needing to compromise the game's storytelling potential. That way we can actually have our cake and eat it too.

 

(PS): I'm writing this 1:00 AM so sorry if it doesn't make much sense.

[MetalSkulkBane]

5 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

Chao Gardens... to be honest I feel like they're a lot less integral to the identity of Adventure games than a lot of people give credit for.

Agree. Like I said. I don't care that much. Just being a adventure fan I feel obligation to mention everything that was praised about it ;-p.

Still, some people loved it, so bringing it back seems logical to me., either as part of the main game or handheld spin-off series.

[Blacklightning]

8 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

I never said anything about the quality or style of gameplay. Obviously those are both important and shouldn't be allowed to go to shit. My point is that Blacklightining's proposal fails to account for the non-gameplay related reasons that people like the other characters.

That's... actually a pretty good point. I usually make these kinds of topics in mind of gameplay first and foremost, and I know which one I'd rather throw under the bus if I had to choose between it and narrative - but this being a topic about compromises, I still have to at least try to consider a middle ground.

Reflecting on it more, I feel like more that simply lazy writing enters into it too - asymetric roles make it harder to write, that much I'm still convinced of, but that probably just means spending a little more time on the conceptual part of things rather than throwing in padding or cutting people's campaigns for brevity's sake. On the other hand,  Heroes didn't handle the "everyone has the same stage ladder" thing all that badly, all things considered? Everybody hit the same levels, the same plot points, most of the same bosses, but they all reacted to their given situations completely differently, all had different motivations for being there, and until that stupid Last Story stuff that shows up in every Adventure game they all had different resolutions, too. And wherever that fell flat was probably due to bad writing too - I mean let's face it, this is "SUPER POWER OF TEAMWORK" we're talking about here.

And this is of course before you consider S3&K once again, which does almost the same thing and goes as far as to make entirely new routes through certain levels between Sonic and Knux as opposed to just shortcuts, and the same could be said of character subplots. You can still write an awful lot around simply giving characters different level goals, consistently and in bursts both. Just for a simple I-only-thought-this-up-in-5-minutes example, think stuff like Sonic and Tails sticking together for the first half of Angel Island, then splitting duties up between chasing Eggman and stopping that sub-boss of his from incinerating the rest of the forest - same level, same occurances, different handling. That's what I'd gun for personally, though it should be said anyway that narratives are best made on a case by case basis and some situations may legitimately show preference towards one over the other, so who knows, chances are there'd still be room for both. =V

That being said I'm not opposed to a Free Play mode either where you can throw canon to the wind and see how characters would perform in each other's sections (or hell, to use characters that were never in the game's plot to start with, like could be the case for unlockable characters or post-launch DLC support) - I just feel that relying on it explicitly to create equilibrium between characters seems like kind of a crutch when there's still plenty of room to balance them out in the main story? Maybe that runs a little contrary to what I suggested earlier, I dunno, it's the conclusion I came to on hindsight >w<

[Indigo Rush]

Rather than just post a control scheme and struggle to explain why it would be a good thing like I normally do, I'll just speak on concepts and features I think would make for a good compromise for a 3D Sonic game, seeing as there's at minimum 3 ways people seem to like to approach it. 

So... without further ado. Things in 3D Sonic games (in no particular order) that we like to do that should be considered and given some non-concrete ideas for potential execution of said ideas. 

Smooth Controls at Slow Speeds
One of the reasons people call to the Adventure games as being the peak of Sonic's gameplay in 3D is because of how fluid he controls. Other gameplay styles notwithstanding, Sonic's controls at a fundamental level are very tight, allowing for good responsiveness at slower speeds. It's possible to make tight turns when going slow, and trying that while going quickly causes Sonic to come to a stop, however making wider turns will preserve momentum. Jumping also works well with this, as inertia is preserved when jumping while running quickly, though it's possible to pull back. The jump is a tad bit floatier than the original side-scrollers to account for the extra axis in 3D requiring more precision in platforming. Sonic Adventures 1 and 2 both feel wonderful to control for all of the aforementioned reasons, and it's kind of odd that this hasn't been properly attempted since. Sonic 06 = Sonic Adventure 3 jokes aside, it's just not quite the same feeling, and Heroes' janky controls at both slow and high speeds as well as Unleashed, Colors and Generations unpleasant stiffness make one wonder what's taking priority over at Sonic Team. It's difficult to appreciate the more open and expansive areas in those games when Sonic can't take advantage of any smooth control mechanics.

Tighter Controls at High Speeds
The opposite scenario; when travelling at breakneck speeds, it's ironically better if it's not easy for Sonic to be able to turn on a dime. In games such as Sonic Adventure where slower speeds are a delight, high speed sections are often encumbered with automated segments where all that's required of the player is to hold forward; dash panels are laid in abundance to ensure that the player will always have enough speed to make it through a loop, and when not in the hands of these splined sections, Sonic is always at risk of moving too quickly in the wrong direction and dashing into danger, or at the very least a solid wall. When running fast, it's important to be able to swerve around obstacles and maintain momentum without accidentally veering towards another direction and crashing into a wall or flying off of a ledge into a hazard or a bottomless pit. Love it or hate it, the boost introduced in Sonic Rush and later fleshed out for 3D in Sonic Unleashed has, in part, solved this issue by endowing Sonic with an ability that lets the player move forward at incredible speeds without worrying about blasting off into the wrong direction by mistake. Analog controls begin to resemble that of a driving game with a vehicle that can not easily make turns without drifting, and with the addition of the quick-step, Sonic has an extra trick up his sleeve to quickly dodge non-destroyable obstacles without losing any gained speed.

The drawbacks to the Boost are not to be overlooked, however: constant invulnerability to most obstacles and reliance on energy both present a very different dynamic to how levels are designed and how the game is played; the Boost is not simply a tool that can be used to gain speed, but it's the only tool the player can use to complete a level as intended, and despite its potential ability to solve the problem of automated level design by providing a mechanic that ensures Sonic always has enough speed to pass through loops and other similar obstacles, levels are still littered with dash panels and springs that dictate the direction in which Sonic will go, with boosting being relegated to being a "slightly faster" option for those areas. Furthermore, this speed is always granted instantly, preventing any satisfaction of the skillful play present in the Classics where speed had to be built through well-timed jumps and rolls. It isn't until Colors until we see the Boost being used as a limited resource where strategic usage of the move is encouraged, for instance it's possible to move ahead in a level, but if energy is rationed out, the player can use the Boost to fly higher up a ramp to gain extra momentum and reach a difficult to reach section of that level. While a good solution, it did not remove scripted sequences entirely, and not having enough energy proved to be a moment of genuine frustration.

A potential compromise is, rather than making the Boost invulnerable, instantaneous and limited, would be to take the polar opposite approach in those traits: a non-damaging, non-instantaneous and unlimited ability. Reworking the Boost to more of an "accelerate" feature, holding down the corresponding button or trigger accelerates Sonic into a higher speed, but it takes a few seconds to obtain that top speed. The move is not invincible, so it's possible to take damage, so quickstepping or attacking while dashing would be necessary to keep the momentum up. Perhaps after a certain amount of time keeping the velocity on the up and up, invulnerability might be obtained as a reward for skillful maintenance. The level design would need to change as well. Fewer (if any at all) dash panels, more involved tracks that are more like race tracks with obstacles than simple straightaways with enemies in the way as an example. Drifting around bends and being rewarded with a speed boost like a kart racer could also be a potential method of defense and offense (and would perfectly mirror the spindash philosophy of slowing down to charge and release to go fast). This may not be the best solution, but it's certainly a solution.

Rolling Downhill and Spindashing.
This is just something that's fun to do. Sonic Adventure kind of had it, a lot of fangames actually have it, and most 3D Sonic games don't have it. As a way to gain speed and defend yourself while going downhill, it's a staple Sonic move that should at least be given some manner of priority in working into a control-scheme. It's possible to make a fun Sonic game without it, but it's difficult to justify it's exclusion. Having a slide rather than a roll is a decision that, to this day, I don't understand or agree with. Even if it has less utility than the Boost, it should have had some presence in those games. 

The spindash is another move that, while it may be rendered null by the presence of a Boost mechanic, is a staple Sonic mechanic that could be re-worked into a revised 3D control-scheme. rolling and spindashing are nigh inseparable, and when you attempt to do so, it's just not very fun. A spindash without a roll mechanic results in Sonic 06 and Shadow's spindash moves, which, last I checked, were not fun to control and didn't have much utility. A roll without a spindash is a little bit more conceivable (hello there, Sonic 1 my darling), but certainly feels like a step backward. It's a move that "returned" in Sonic Lost World, but did not have the sloped and curved terrain to take advantage of it. Level design and control mechanics need to work in tandem with each-other in order to provide a fun experience.

...how many times has this video been linked on SSMB? Haha, thanks for the forum weapon, @Azoo.

If the spindash and roll were to reappear in this hypothetical 3D Sonic game we're cooking up, it's not difficult to imagine a situation where the non-instantaneous and non-damaging Boost would be better for flat or uphill surfaces, while spindashing and rolling would reign while going downhill, and would offer a means of quick defense while boosting. Even mapping the roll/spindash as the drift could work: holding forward while dashing and rolling provides a continuous roll that uncurls after a certain amount of time (unless gaining speed downhill), or taking a sharp turn would activate the drift, which, in most kart racers, is followed by a speed boost. Sounds like a spindash, right? Sonic Generations' drift animation provides some cool imagery to see how that would look. Sonic Riders' drift mechanic is also similar in concept to this. Slowing down while making a tight turn and following through with a large speed boost. Perhaps an exaggerated example, but the idea is sound: the Spin and the Dash functions working together to make a Spin-Dash! ....see what I did there? Eh? Eeeeeehhhh?

*ahem*

Homing Attacks and Combat Mechanics
When Mario walks around in 3D, Goombas and Koopa-Troopas waddle towards him like good little targets and allow Mario's slow and precise jump ability to guarantee a direct hit. When Sonic walks around in 3D, Motobugs and Buzzbombers often sit in place waiting to be targeted and destroyed, and yet somehow simply jumping on them is a chore. See, when Mario does it, his relatively slow approach to gameplay works just fine in these combat sequences. Sonic, who's entire deal is going quickly and keeping the flow. As such, Sonic Team rightfully included the homing attack to circumvent that issue and to give Sonic a method to attack and keep moving. Only thing: ironically the move intended to keep the pace up actively kills all momentum upon hitting an enemy. That's... well. Let's fix that. But see... combat is an affair that in 2D Sonic games is mostly a non issue. Boop above or under a badnik and keep moving, done and done. Sometimes they have defenses or weapons, so timing your jumps and knowing where to jump is important. In 3D, that's not really easy to do. It's nearly impossible to aim in 3D without coming to a near-stop, and sadly with a homing attack as we know it currently, you're going to fly towards the enemy at the same speed and stop in place each and every time, and as of Sonic 2006, you will always uncurl after an attack. Boo.

One often provided solution is to make Sonic bounce forward after a homing attack as seen in the balloons in Sonic Generations; while a fair solution, the resulting bounce has little in the way of controlling trajectory, and in a combat situation, having the freedom to choose whether to keep moving or stay in the same area to fight more baddies off is important. In 2D, it's possible to pull back after a bounce and move the other way, and you can only bounce a significant distance if enough speed was built up. But at the same time, that is the result of a simple jump, not a homing attack. I do think it's possible to incorporate that freedom of choice into the homing attack with some button-play. For instance, holding the homing-attack button while impacting an enemy would result in a forward bounce that has a controllable trajectory and can be pulled back, but just tapping the homing-attack button will stop all momentum.

Or, just watch this video:

HARDCORE PARKOUR
Ledge-grabbing, wall-running, wall-jumping, triangle-jumping, vaulting over short obstacles, sliding through tight spaces, it's always fun to watch Sonic interact with the environment in ways that are more dynamic than simply running through them or jumping over them. Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 have wall-running mechanics by way of running up a curved slope and keeping speed while running along the wall, some memorable sequences including the second half of Emerald Coast, the buildings in Speed Highway, and the half-pipe in City Escape. Simply adding more areas like these are welcome in a 3D Sonic game, and even Sonic 2006 offered a few instances of this, though momentum wasn't as important since the game was coded in such a way to make it possible to simply walk up a loop. Sonic Lost World attempted to offer some utility through parkour mechanics allowing Sonic to climb up walls when holding the "run" trigger straight into a wall, or run alongside them when grabbing on the side. A fun mechanic for sure, it however lacks in the full-analog control and challenge of maintaining momentum that the Adventure games had, where it's possible to run up and down and all around a wall as long as you had enough speed. In Lost World, it's forward or fall. 

I think, as far as wall-running is concerned, all that should be required is a slope and some momentum. As long as you have enough speed, Sonic should be able to latch onto the wall and run ahead similar to the wall-shredding mechanic in Jet Grind Radio. And as such, it should be just as easy to jump off of that wall and keep flying in that direction. Wall-jumps in Sonic games have always been context-sensitive. In Heroes, you could only triangle-jump in narrow hallways, in Generations you can only wall-jump off of special plates, in Sonic Adventure, you have panels that tell you where to go.

This is going to get complex, so hear me out and try to imagine along with me. I'll even draw pictures.

Allowing Sonic to jump off of a wall in any situation would go a long way in letting the player feel connected to the environment. At fast speeds, Sonic runs along the wall. At slow or no speed, Sonic clings to the wall and slides down in a manner similar to 3D Mario games. However, where Mario can only jump in the opposite direction, Sonic should be able to jump opposite and forward, depending on where the analog stick is pointing. Imagine jumping forward in a narrow hallway and instead of clinging to the wall and stopping, Sonic slides along the wall relative to the direction of the previous jump, and those jumps can compound previous built speed until it's possible to break out into a wall-run. Lost World's mini spindash can also provide a burst of speed while clinging to a wall to give Sonic enough momentum to keep moving forward, and ideally allow enough speed for full 3D control. 

Also you could roll up and down those halfpipes. Yay pictures!

In Conclusion
I'm not gonna pretend that this is the perfect solution; these are just some ideas I wanted to share. I believe Sonic should flow and give freedom to the player to take their time or keep moving ahead, provided they play skillfully... I think it could work together. I have other ideas and thoughts relating to trick and point systems, hub worlds, level progression and the like, but I think this is enough to at least get the idea across that compromise as @Blacklightning suggested is possible. Might come back with more thoughts later. 

Peace.

[Indigo Rush]

oh hey

there's this, too

[Mad Convoy]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

oh hey

there's this, too

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, so let me preface this by saying that my criticisms are more directed at the game than you.

I haven't played this so I can't fully assess the feel of it, but from what I'm seeing here, I'm not impressed. One thing that is instantly noticeable is that it gives Sonic incredibly rigid movement, and many of the platforms don't mesh with the overall aestetic. I get that its going to need platforms, but they don't seem to fit. While I appreciate attempt at an open world, the world looks incredibly empty and there isn't really much to explore. So in my eyes, the open-endedness is little more than an optical illusion. Not to mention that the mach speed looks annoying to activate-- and gameplay-wise, it comes off like its trying to be the boost, but ends up only replicating its worst aspects (especially its rigidity). As somebody who is quite fond of the boost, I would be extremely unhappy if this is how the boost mechanics got represented in an official Sonic game. I get that slopes are a natural and necessary part of good Sonic gameplay. but the giant U shapes in general are not ideal for 3D Sonic level designs considering how awkward they are in terms of aestetics and function when you don't have a fixed camera angle.

Not to mention that I can't think of anything good this game does that games like Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Generations, etc. haven't already done better in the 3D realm. 

In short, I don't like it. Its conceptually flawed and badly designed. If I were a Sega employee who received this as a new game proposal, I would probably reject it or at the very least advise reworking it to the point where it wouldn't be recognizable. I don't think its that great of a compromise either, considering that its basically SA1 if it were even more flawed than before and had unnecessary and annoying mach speed/boost mechanics.

[Nepenthe]

Platforms that float or are suspended for no reason have been a thing since Sonic 1. A more ergonomic approach would be ideal simply because disguised platforms fit in better with the landscape, but I wouldn't really call that a flaw unless you're trying to hold this demo up to a standard not even the best games bother to achieve. Also, the boost here seems a lot more free-form than the one in the games. Sonic isn't locked in by an overwhelming forward acceleration; he's still going ahead at high speed, but he's simultaneously performing turns that aren't really possible while boosting. Not even drifting nets you the tight circumference you're apparently getting here just by, well, turning Sonic normally. The only thing I really see as problematic here is that the scale of everything is a little wonky, but I don't find that a problem with the conception of the ideas so much as it is a numbers issue. Polish Sonic up and fix his abilities so that they work best in levels with smaller and more tightly designed areas, and I would honestly take Sega doing something like this over anything else.

[Tracker_TD]

Not hugely fond of GH Paradise 2. I love open world, but I don't think it suits Sonic; especially not with a linear goal. There's a real lack of direction, and often getting to areas of the level felt convoluted and crucially just not fun. 

Of course, there's the mechanics themselves which are the focus and... nah. Mach state felt finnicky and tough to anticipate and often trying to ascend slopes with the spindash as I would in a classic game somehow yielded worse results than just running up it, Sonic 4 style. The homing attack is somehow worse than Generations too; it's not even handy as a jump extension, in addition to killing all momentum. And spinning locks your controls up anyway; Tails and Knuckles' rolling in SA1 felt better, honestly. Overall the controls just felt incredibly clunky, as with most 3D Sonic fangames; and I kept getting caught on stuff, especially when trying to get out of water. 

Not super impressed overall; feels it's a lot of style and scale, but the actual gameplay and process of going fast isn't fun and constantly interrupted by the failure of the level design to flow between setpieces. It feels like Fan Remix and the first GHZ P; dazzling at first, then the realisation it's just flash. Eh. For a fan effort it's certainly impressive, but far from what I want SEGA to do. I think I'd rather SEGA refine boost; the likes of Generations are far more gratifying than this, automation be damned. 

[Mad Convoy]

18 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Platforms that float or are suspended for no reason have been a thing since Sonic 1. A more ergonomic approach would be ideal simply because disguised platforms fit in better with the landscape, but I wouldn't really call that a flaw unless you're trying to hold this demo up to a standard not even the best games bother to achieve.

I wasn't referring to just the platforms that float-- the game in general has a lot of wonky aspects as I alluded to when criticizing the U slopes. 

Though I will say that the floating platforms are kind of awkward too. Sonic 1 and co got away with using them like this because they're 2D games, so players need them to get anywhere in terms of exploration, not to mention that 2D games tend to be more simplified in terms of aestetics and design, meaning that stuff like floating platforms don't look too out of place. 3D platformers, on the other hand, are by definition more complicated to design for due to the addition of a third plane and bear a closer resemblance to how we navigate the real world, so stuff like floating platforms demand more details to look fitting. The 3D Sonic games did it well because they either show some kind of mechanism to hold up the platform (it can be cartoony like a geyser or more realistic like a steel bar from a building) or are designed in a way that imply that they're manmade and thus supposed to look artificial. This game doesn't really do that though, instead lifting platform directly from the platforms. Considering how this game was likely made on a low budget, I understand not showing a mechanism, but they could have at least given it a stone carving texture or something.

Its not so much holding the game to an impossible standard as it is holding the game to the standard that modern platformers worth their salt ascribe to. As you said, disguised platforms are key-- and since that is very possible and more ergonomic by your own admission, its a flaw not to include them.

33 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Also, the boost here seems a lot more free-form than the one in the games. Sonic isn't locked in by an overwhelming forward acceleration; he's still going ahead at high speed, but he's simultaneously performing turns that aren't really possible while boosting. Not even drifting nets you the tight circumference you're apparently getting here just by, well, turning Sonic normally.

Well, yeah, but he is locked into forward acceleration until he suddenly and jarringly decides to stop. Boost, despite the faster rate of acceleration, does not have any of these issues whatsoever in terms of transitioning bad to normal Sonic. I will give it to you that the turning is improved, but its still pretty rigid. Not to mention that it comes off as being shoehorned in, as it contributes absolutely nothing to levels. And its wonky to activate since you need those awkward U slopes. 

37 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The only thing I really see as problematic here is that the scale of everything is a little wonky, but I don't find that a problem with the conception of the ideas so much as it is a numbers issue. Polish Sonic up and fix his abilities so that they work best in levels with smaller and more tightly designed areas, and I would honestly take Sega doing something like this over anything else.

Its not just the scale that's wonky. The level design, scale aside, is pretty terrible too, though I think I've went on about that enough. So is the controls for that matter, consider how rigid Sonic moves and how awkward it is to make use of his abilities. I mean, you could try to make the mechanics less rigid, but doing so would basically defeat the point of it since, at best, it'd be just a clone of SA1's mechanics rather than a compromise game where everybody can find something to enjoy (which seems to be the point). And the level design would still require a complete overhaul.

I think Tracker summed up my other thoughts better than I could, so I'll just point to the above comment by him.

[Diogenes]

59 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Though I will say that the floating platforms are kind of awkward too. Sonic 1 and co got away with using them like this because they're 2D games, so players need them to get anywhere in terms of exploration, not to mention that 2D games tend to be more simplified in terms of aestetics and design, meaning that stuff like floating platforms don't look too out of place. 3D platformers, on the other hand, are by definition more complicated to design for due to the addition of a third plane and bear a closer resemblance to how we navigate the real world, so stuff like floating platforms demand more details to look fitting.

This...honestly doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me.

2D games don't need to have floating platforms in-universe. They could easily have decorative background objects that are implied to be holding up the actual physical platform. 2D games are not inherently more aesthetically simple than 3D games; it depends entirely on what each individual game is trying to be, there are plenty of complex and detailed 2D games as well as simplified and stylized 3D games. And the complications that a third dimension add in no way require floating platforms to be more detailed or for platforms to be physically supported.

[MegasonicZX]

Haven't really played it myself and have only watched about halfway through it as i'm writing this but a couple of things that I take away from this are:

-Game looks gorgeous, I know these normally do but man does it look even more stunning here

-Levels are perhaps a bit too open, the dev probably could've streamlined this more since the only thing i'm thinking when the player is going through the zone is "jesus christ where the heck do I go in here" and with how samey the level itself looks its very easy to get confused. What I think would work a bit better is to take the sonic 3 approach of make the straight path as clear as possible but have the paths branch off in subtle ways so that it feels more natural to your progression rather than feeling like a confused mess.

-While I like the idea of the momentum gain system I think it could use some tweaks, instead of having it activate the instant you get the speed required (and instead of always requiring a slope), just make it activate after a few seconds like the advance games do it, maybe something like around 10 seconds for normal running speed and five seconds if you are going down slopes or gaining speed with the spin dash for prolonged times.

-Ditch the crouch and just make the spindash the B button, unless there is some use for it later (and there really shouldn't be in a game like this) it shouldn't have any meaningful use that a slide or a simple moving spindash can't handle.

-I like the idea of making slopes be a natural ingrained part of the environment, its a good way to give the player lots of ways to increase their speed in every scenario and overall gives you more freedom in how you approach a certain section.

-Jump dash seems a bit too slow and short, they should make it like sonic adventure or adventure 2's so it doesn't feel like a waste of time to even use it.

Thats about all I can think of at the moment but overall I think its a pretty cool effort and if the dev were to tighten up on a lot of these things and more it could prove to be something great.

[Blacklightning]

I have to be honest, my facination with Green Hill Paradise is more from a tech demo standpoint than from that of a full game or level - my reasons for linking it extend only as a case in point that Sonic physics, on a technical level, can work in a 3D environment, and pretty easily to boot. I realize that the level design itself is kind of ass (especially in Paradise 2's case), way too big and broad for what the engine was designed for, and some quirks aren't entirely polished and optimized, but it stands nonetheless as one of many examples of physics working on a basic and fun level, as opposed to the incredibly stiff and often outright fucking broken movement Sonic has had since... oh say, SA2 or so. Despite the complete and utter lack of direction, it's a playground that is designed to exploit the bulk of Sonic's abilities first and foremost, and that above all else is a thing that modern Sonic games need to learn from, albiet in a much more focused fashion.

[Potada]

Admittedly, I kind of like the idea of a more exploration-based Sonic game. GHP2 definitely comes off a bit too open-ended, but it really makes me want to see Sonic Jam-esque levels that can combine speed and exploring.

Of course, I've only seen footage of the game, so take that as you wish.

[Green Eyes]

OK about his compromise thing, as I said before, Id' say the core idea of Sonic is there, it's a platformer game with an emphasis on speed, the main method of attack is a spin dash or homing attack,and the idea is you move "through" the enemies in order to beat them, the rest is gimmicks.

I'd say without boost,gameplay roullete, parkour or what have you, you have what is essentially a Sonic game, you also have what is essentially a classic Sonic game, or Sonic's SA or SA2.

This isn't so much a cry for "no more gimmicks", so much as a counter to the argument that Sonic has been too radically invented; repeatedly, for there to be a clearly defined idea of what a "Sonic game" is. Though I do think more of a return to the "core idea" would be very feasible for the fanbase and new players alike.

I also kind of think Sonic Team has kind of worked along the lines of "We need a GIMMICk, a massive gimmick that's blatantly obvious throughout the entire game...no, two or more big gimmicks." and it seems almost like they're trying to find one that sticks,but it's not going to.

[Blacklightning]

32 minutes ago, Green Eyes said:

I'd say without boost,gameplay roullete, parkour or what have you, you have what is essentially a Sonic game, you also have what is essentially a classic Sonic game, or Sonic's SA or SA2.

If you look at everything strictly on a surface level I can see how one would believe that, but this is the exact same mistake Sonic 4 and Generations made - basing everything off a broad, fleeting analysis without understanding the deeper intricacies of what actually made the original playstyle gel together in the first place. In fact, a lot of Sonic 4's shortcomings still technically exist in the Rush games the engine is based on, just that the fact you were expected to constantly boost made for a convenient way to conceal that it didn't work very well when Sonic was doing anything else.

Not that I disagree with stripping down tacky, pointless gimmicks on a game-wide basis - I just feel that doing so is only step one. Sonic still needs to be able to move fluidly after the fact, otherwise there's just a hollow shell of a gameplay style left over. This isn't necessarily me clamouring for a completely accurate expy of genesis physics, not that I'd complain about that either. I just feel incredibly basic shit like "you can move faster downhill" and "you keep all the speed you had on the ground when you jump" shouldn't be too much to ask regardless of the approach to gameplay you take.

[Green Eyes]

"Reduce to core basics= Success" is very far from my point.

What I was saying with that quote was more contrary to the idea that Sonic's been reinvented so much that it's unrecognizable, it's recognizable but it has gimmicks on it.

I did mention a return to basics would be very feasible, but for it to be successful yes that would mean analyzing what made them good in the first place and what fleshed it out, also one of the "core basics" does seem to have gotten lost; emphasis on physics.