'Dark' and 'Serious' takes on Sonic: Why are They So Taboo?

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

There is no meaningful fundamental difference between accessing each kind of dimension in the games as they're presented,

Most of the dimensional jumps are either explicitly shown or implied to be related to the emeralds, while the storybook games use genies and wizards. I consider that a difference worth noting.

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

If you changed the book to a generic-ass portal and redesigned the offending characters, nothing would actually change about the inner workings of the narrative and conflict or the effect it has on Sonic's real world. It's nothing more than cliche' cartoon window dressing for an irrelevant spin-off, not a far-reaching plot point with any real implications on the narrative at large.

...ok? I still don't like that "window dressing" and I feel it hurts the series.

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Yes. It's a goofy concept, in a series predicated on goofy concepts. But being a goofy concept isn't an indicator of a betrayal of tone or style, and as a result I honestly I can't see how it breaks your suspension of disbelief outside of far stricter standards for throwaway alternate dimensions than I have.

It's not really about tone or style but of plausibility and lacking any kind of metaphor or greater significance. Like, I can accept the existence of Eggman Nega, going by either backstory, because a descendant looking similar to his ancestor is plausible enough, and because Sonic and Blaze's worlds are (to a degree) mirrors/parallels to each other. With the storybook games, I don't see any explanation for the storybook characters to be expies of the main cast. Why is Lancelot a hedgehog with rocket skates who can teleport? Just because they wanted Shadow in the game, as far as I can see.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Because if it's a storybook game it kind of makes sense for the main cast to play these characters. I saw it as Shadow was playing Lancelot, much like a play.

[Nepenthe]

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Most of the dimensional jumps are either explicitly shown or implied to be related to the emeralds, while the storybook games use genies and wizards. I consider that a difference worth noting.

Except for Shuffle which happened because of a dream creature ass-pulling some random portal to a new dimension and throwing the characters into it without any help from any magical gems. So it already had precedence.

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...ok? I still don't like that "window dressing" and I feel it hurts the series.

I never said you had to like it. I'm arguing against your notion that the difference is meaningful enough to cause perceivable harm to the franchise as a whole.

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It's not really about tone or style but of plausibility and lacking any kind of metaphor or greater significance. Like, I can accept the existence of Eggman Nega, going by either backstory, because a descendant looking similar to his ancestor is plausible enough, and because Sonic and Blaze's worlds are (to a degree) mirrors/parallels to each other. With the storybook games, I don't see any explanation for the storybook characters to be expies of the main cast. Why is Lancelot a hedgehog with rocket skates who can teleport? Just because they wanted Shadow in the game, as far as I can see.

I personally find the idea that Eggman found the one cuckoo in a sea of billions of human beings to have children with (or God forbid raped someone) far more fucking disturbing than magical storybooks that you can jump into, but das jus me doe.

It's also weird to talk about plausibility and lack of significance when Eggman Nega himself is befit with the same "is he from the future or an alternate dimension" issue that Blaze once was, and taken into account with the whole "how did Eggman have children" issue you inevitably have to grapple with for his existence to make sense, in general he is pretty meaningless as a standalone villain and ironically is only an existing character because Sonic Team couldn't think of something better for a completely alternate dimension/timeline/whatever than Recolored Eggman.

[Diogenes]

15 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

Because if it's a storybook game it kind of makes sense for the main cast to play these characters. I saw it as Shadow was playing Lancelot, much like a play.

The games don't frame it as being a play or anything like that, though. They're meant to be real places and real events, running independently without Sonic until he's pulled into them.

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Except for Shuffle, the former of which happened because of a dream creature ass-pulling some random portal to a new dimension and throwing the characters into them without any help from any magical gems. So it already had precedence.

I don't think anyone really considers Shuffle to be formative to the series' identity, though.

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I personally find the idea that Eggman found the one cuckoo in a sea of billions of human beings to have children with (or God forbid raped someone) far more fucking disturbing than magical storybooks that you can jump into, but das jus me doe.

We don't really have to follow the trail that deep for Nega's existence to make sense, though. The relevant issue is "why is there this Eggman lookalike from the future?" and "he is Eggman's descendant" is a sufficient answer; we don't need his whole family tree laid out for us.

If you need a less mindbreaking explanation, though, I always figured cloning made the most sense (and further justifies their similarities).

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

It's also weird to talk about plausibility and lack of significance when Eggman Nega himself is befit with the same "is he from the future or an alternate dimension" issue that Blaze once was, and taken into account with the whole "how did Eggman have children" issue you inevitably have to grapple with for his existence to make sense, in general he is pretty meaningless as a standalone villain and ironically is only an existing character because Sonic Team couldn't think of something better for a completely alternate dimension/timeline/whatever than Recolored Eggman.

I'm not here to defend Nega as a worthwhile addition to the series; tbh he's one of my least favorite characters. All I'm saying is that "why is he 'Eggman'?" is actually given an answer (even if they fucked up and made two contradictory ones), while Lancelot's "why is he 'Shadow'?" never was.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

To be honest, if Dragon Ball can go from this

To this

I don't see why Sonic can't. That said, the franchise's ability to do this successfully is entirely dependent on Sonic Team, who have proven it's very easy to fuck up. I don't think it's any secret that I despise the current direction, but I understand why Sonic Team is hesitant to try anything beyond a try hard comedy.

[Wraith]

10 minutes ago, ThePrinceOfSaiyajins said:

To be honest, if Dragon Ball can go from this

To this

I don't see why Sonic can't. That said, the franchise's ability to do this successfully is entirely dependent on Sonic Team, who have proven it's very easy to fuck up. I don't think it's any secret that I despise the current direction, but I understand why Sonic Team is hesitant to try anything beyond a try hard comedy.

Dragon Ball's tone shift is kind of controversial depending on who you talk to so I wouldn't call it the best example tbh.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I don't think anyone really considers Shuffle to be formative to the series' identity, though.

No one really does for the Storybook games either unless it's to take a potshot at the franchise to be the cool kid on the block; the same as Labyrinth.

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

We don't really have to follow the trail that deep for Nega's existence to make sense, though. The relevant issue is "why is there this Eggman lookalike from the future?" and "he is Eggman's descendant" is a sufficient answer; we don't need his whole family tree laid out for us.

You don't need to have the family tree laid out to understand the implication of Eggman having descendants is that someone slept with him, which on a planet where everyone hates him is a dumb as shit idea with, again, disturbing implications. On top of that, Nega was in an alternate dimension when he first appeared, so what, did Eggman go to an alternate dimension and have kids or is there and alternate dimension Eggman from 200 years beforehand (which raises the question of where is alt. descendants of everyone else)?

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

If you need a less mindbreaking explanation, though, I always figured cloning made the most sense (and further justifies their similarities).

Why would he clone himself into an inferior, more evil version of himself and not just use the suspended animation techniques and that whole immortality thing Gerald and GUN had access to 50 years prior to the start of the series?

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not here to defend Nega as a worthwhile addition to the series; tbh he's one of my least favorite characters. All I'm saying is that "why is he 'Eggman'?" is actually given an answer (even if they fucked up and made two contradictory ones), while Lancelot's "why is he 'Shadow'?" never was.

Sorry, but I'm not one to buy that shitty storytelling is less harmful than incidental storytelling, especially when a good bulk of the franchise is based on incidental storytelling where things are as they are just because they can be.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Dragon Ball's tone shift is kind of controversial depending on who you talk to so I wouldn't call it the best example tbh.

Well yeah, you're always going to have a number of people who have a problem with it, but as far as I can tell, these people are the minority. The Artificial Human arc is a fan-favorite.

[Osmium]

11 minutes ago, ThePrinceOfSaiyajins said:

To be honest, if Dragon Ball can go from this

To this

I don't see why Sonic can't. That said, the franchise's ability to do this successfully is entirely dependent on Sonic Team, who have proven it's very easy to fuck up. I don't think it's any secret that I despise the current direction, but I understand why Sonic Team is hesitant to try anything beyond a try hard comedy.

I dunno man, DBZ wasn't really aimed for the same age that Sonic tries to attract. I mean that definitely didn't stop kids from watching it but it's definitely more intense than Sonic. And Dragon Ball itself wasn't exactly the most innocent thing either. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

3 hours ago, Myst said:

Edgy storylines in Sonic isn't some new thing. It's ALWAYS been a part of the franchise, with a few exceptions here and there (Hello AoStH) That was the franchise's appeal to me. So why, 20 years later, is it frowned upon so much? 

What exactly is so edgy about the following titles.

Sonic 1

Sonic 2 

Sonic 3?

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

2 minutes ago, ShroomZ said:

I dunno man, DBZ wasn't really aimed for the same age that Sonic tries to attract. I mean that definitely didn't stop kids from watching it but it's definitely more intense than Sonic. And Dragon Ball itself wasn't exactly the most innocent thing either. 

I don't really know who Sonic is generally aimed at, but kids ate Dragon Ball Z up. It was the talk of town when I went to Elementary School. Granted, these are different times.

[Nepenthe]

Sonic was meant to be a worldwide phenomenon. He was aimed at whoever had an interest in the games, hence why babies can beat the classics and adults can find joy in pulling off insane speedrun shit.

On top of that, you would probably find that there is a minority of a minority of people who think the tone shift from DB to DBZ was not only unnecessary or worse, but completely unsupported by the franchise's previous lore to the point that it is impossible to engage with Z because it breaks suspension of disbelief. 

Seriously, I have never seen any notable group of people say the Saiyan, Namek/Freeza, and Android/Cell arcs were just so out of bounds or betrayed what Dragon Ball was always "meant" to be (which is a bit entitled, let's be honest) that it could not be watched on the basis of these things not belonging to the franchise in any way, shape or form.

That is the difference between Sonic and Dragon Ball and why it's a good point to bring it up. Dragon Ball fans argue whether or the tonal shift made for a better or more entertaining product. They don't fucking argue over whether or not Z was an artistically feasible path for the franchise to even go in the first place.

[Sega DogTagz]

17 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

What exactly is so edgy about the following titles.

Sonic 1

Sonic 2 

Sonic 3?

The Marketing.

Wasn't that little blue pudgy heckraiser pretty much shopped as the anarchist that your stuffed shirt of a teacher told you to stay away from.

 

and from a story perspective, Sonic was downing Death Stars while everyone else was busy saving the princess... just sayin.

[Osmium]

Maybe I should clarify that I definitely understand that Sonic is meant for all ages, but the youngest demographic for Sonic is clearly a younger one than for DBZ especially which is basically what Nepenthe noted in her first sentence. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Here's another one. Jak & Daxter. The original was a lighthearted fun story that was really child friendly. The second one is a completely different game, with swearing, themes of revenge, betrayal, and more. Yet it still feels natural due to the characters like Daxter, Keira and such still being in their normal personalities. Even Jak, who underwent a big change still felt natural due to the fact the personality change is explained and worked into the story. If Jak could make that kind of change, anything could, but that's why I keep saying there needs to be a tone balance for it to work, so it does feel natural. For as dark as DBZ did get, it did still have a lot of quirks and humor that DB had.

[Diogenes]

20 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

No one really does for the Storybook games either unless it's to take a potshot at the franchise to be the cool kid on the block; the same as Labyrinth.

The storybook games are far more story-heavy and closer to the series' core than a Mario Party knockoff.

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You don't need to have the family tree laid out to understand the implication of Eggman having descendants is that someone slept with him, which on a planet where everyone hates him is a dumb as shit idea with, again, disturbing implications. On top of that, Nega was in an alternate dimension when he first appeared, so what, did Eggman go to an alternate dimension and have kids or is there and alternate dimension Eggman from 200 years beforehand (which raises the question of where is alt. descendants of everyone else)?

Why would he clone himself into an inferior, more evil version of himself and not just use the suspended animation techniques and that whole immortality thing Gerald and GUN had access to 50 years prior to the start of the series?

Where in the hell is this argument even going? I just said I'm not going to defend Nega in his entirety; he's a shit character, him having contradictory backstories is garbage writing, and in no way intended to be the gold standard the series should hold itself to. All I did was use him as an example where they didn't entirely fuck up this one specific thing, compared to a situation where they did.

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Sorry, but I'm not one to buy that shitty storytelling is less harmful than incidental storytelling, especially when a good bulk of the franchise is based on incidental storytelling where things are as they are just because they can be.

Who in the hell is trying to compare the two?

[Nepenthe]

23 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The storybook games are far more story-heavy and closer to the series' core than a Mario Party knockoff.

That doesn't make them "formative to the series' identity." They either are or they aren't. To me, they aren't. They're forgettable spin-offs that have had no overwhelming objective effect on the series' development going forward.

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Where in the hell is this argument even going? I just said I'm not going to defend Nega in his entirety; he's a shit character, him having contradictory backstories is garbage writing, and in no way intended to be the gold standard the series should hold itself to. All I did was use him as an example where they didn't entirely fuck up this one specific thing, compared to a situation where they did.

Jiminy Cricket, no one is accusing you of defending or liking Nega. I'm arguing that him being a total disaster of a character is actually more harmful to the franchise than Lancelot looking like Shadow for meta reasons.

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Who in the hell is trying to compare the two?

You've been saying this whole damn time that Nega is less harmful to the whole franchise than Lancelot and other expies are on the basis of he has a reason for his appearance and Lancelot doesn't. You've been comparing each on the basis of perceived harm. I disagree: having a bullshit, canon-warping reason for something is more harmful than something that exists just because the writers wanted it to exist.

I mean fuck, is this not the attitude you take when defending Lost World's appalling lack of context anyway; that shit like "Why is this conch here and why does it do this specific thing?" or "Why don't they constantly use their metal powers to kill Eggman beforehand?" or "How do you miss a fucking planet in your atmosphere to the point that it's called "Lost Hex"?" or "Why did they gain a genocidal streak out of nowhere?" just doesn't matter because it's all self-evident or unnecessary to the story to ask those questions and that we're taking it too seriously? And yet an incidental character in a spin-off looking like another character just because is the straw that's breaking the camel's back in terms of suspension of disbelief for you???

Edited August 18, 2016 by Nepenthe

[Ryannumber1gamer]

25 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

"How do you miss a fucking planet in your atmosphere to the point that it's called "Lost Hex"?" 

I think the bigger question is if the planet was missed that long, how the fuck did Tails know about it and know what it was called before hand.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Who in the hell is trying to compare the two?

You. 

I mean think about it, we are comparing Shadow playing Lancelot to Eggman Nega from another demsnsion. To be honest, I get where you are coming from with Shadow, but in my view, these characters are playing the role of the legendary knights. Blaze was playing Percivel, Shadow was playing Lancelot, Silver was playing Galahad and so on. We are told in the story to look at these characters AS the knights, not Shadow dressed in armour or Knuckles in tinman suit. <--- That's why it isn't explained. Sonic is in the role of the main hero of the stories they are playing out. Etc, he IS King Arthur.

Eggman Nega is different well because he is his own separate character from another demension. Even the personality is slightly different.   

[Diogenes]

31 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You've been saying this whole damn time that Nega is less harmful to the whole franchise than Lancelot

No, I have not! I have said, on this one specific issue, that Nega succeeds where Lancelot and the rest fail. That doesn't mean that Nega isn't a total trainwreck otherwise, that doesn't mean that he's less harmful, just that on this one singular issue they got it right(ish) with Nega and wrong with the storybook expies.

31 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I mean fuck, is this not the attitude you take when defending Lost World's appalling lack of context anyway; that shit like "Why is this conch here and why does it do this specific thing?" or "Why don't they constantly use their metal powers to kill Eggman beforehand?" or "How do you miss a fucking planet in your atmosphere to the point that it's called "Lost Hex"?" or "Why did they gain a genocidal streak out of nowhere?" just doesn't matter because it's all self-evident or unnecessary to the story to ask those questions and that we're taking it too seriously?

None of these things are as implausible or unexplainable as "there is a real live Gawain from an actual world of Arthurian legend and he is identical to Sonic's friend Knuckles". There's a shell that makes a sound that hurts these monsters, fine, mystic artifacts are a dime a dozen, I have no trouble believing its existence in the series and it doesn't really matter what particular way Eggman came into possession of it. The Zeti don't attack Eggman at every theoretical opening because he holds power over them; that's elevated to full protection because the story needs it to work that way. Lost Hex being lost is only as unreasonable as Angel Island being a legend, so it's fully in line with the rest of the series. And the Zeti being casually genocidal isn't the least bit contradictory to anything we see of them beforehand, so I don't even know why that's a complaint.

All this stuff in Lost World can be easily understood in context, even if it isn't solid-gold writing or as deep and detailed as some people want it to be. But the only explanation we're ever going to get for Lancelot and the rest is "they wanted to do it".

31 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

And yet an incidental character in a spin-off looking like another character just because is the straw that's breaking the camel's back in terms of suspension of disbelief for you???

It is one thing, among many, that I dislike about the games. I don't know where you got the idea that this of all things is the make-or-break issue for me.

24 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

You. 

I was comparing one specific aspect of how the characters were handled, not the entirety of the characters or the entirety of their effects on the series.

24 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

... but in my view, these characters are playing the role of the legendary knights. Blaze was playing Percivel, Shadow was playing Lancelot, Silver was playing Galahad and so on. We are told in the story to look at these characters AS the knights, not Shadow dressed in armour or Knuckles in tinman suit. <--- That's why it isn't explained. Sonic is in the role of the main hero of the stories they are playing out. Etc, he IS King Arthur.

And that would be a way to insert Sonic characters as legendary Arthurian characters and have it make sense, but that's not how the game actually spins it. The knights and the rest aren't the real characters just playing a role; Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, etc are not transported into the storybook world the way Sonic was. And it doesn't make sense for Sonic being in the world to cause the knights to be other Sonic characters, because the world is presented as existing before and independently of his arrival.

[Nepenthe]

38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No, I have not! I have said, on this one specific issue, that Nega succeeds where Lancelot and the rest fail. That doesn't mean that Nega isn't a total trainwreck otherwise, that doesn't mean that he's less harmful, just that on this one singular issue they got it right(ish) with Nega and wrong with the storybook expies.

You said you can accept the entire existence of Eggman Nega and not any of the Storybook expies as being plausible enough to even exist in the first place, which you used as an example to demonstrate that lack of plausibility or previous precedent for new ideas- such as in the case of the storybooks even being magical portals in the first place- was harmful to the series to some degree. You used that term yourself.

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None of these things are as implausible or unexplainable as "there is a real live Gawain from an actual world of Arthurian legend and he is identical to Sonic's friend Knuckles". There's a shell that makes a sound that hurts these monsters, fine, mystic artifacts are a dime a dozen, I have no trouble believing its existence in the series and it doesn't really matter what particular way Eggman came into possession of it. The Zeti don't attack Eggman at every theoretical opening because he holds power over them; that's elevated to full protection because the story needs it to work that way. Lost Hex being lost is only as unreasonable as Angel Island being a legend, so it's fully in line with the rest of the series. And the Zeti being casually genocidal isn't the least bit contradictory to anything we see of them beforehand, so I don't even know why that's a complaint.

The conch is questionable because there is no justification behind it, thus it could be anything, meaning there is a question of why in the world it's a magical conch in the first place and not a magical flute or a magical drumset or an item Eggman made. The fact that it can feasibly exist because "well, there's other magical artifacts" doesn't mean it's not a problematic design decision that is indicative of how arbitrary and meaningless the rest of the storytelling is.

Eggman holding power over them doesn't really translate meaningfully when the scenes play themselves in a way where they could've wrestled away power before Sonic kicked the conch away. Literally the only reason Zavok didn't kill Eggman is because they wanted Sonic to be at fault for their release. It's contrived to the point of being annoying.

And something doesn't have to be a contradiction to not make sense. We have absolutely no information about the Zeti or their motivations outside of the present events of the game. We don't know if they're space pirates or conquerors or anything like that. So when they chase Eggman and Sonic away, they decide to kill off Earth because- what- it'll make them feel better or something? Why don't they just kill them instead? There's no point to this that isn't just for the sake of drama, which is just more contrivance.

Also... is Angel Island itself described as a legend that may not exist or something? It has mythical lore for how it got into the sky in the first place, but when was it ever treated as this "lost" or "mythical" thing like, say, Little Planet?

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All this stuff in Lost World can be easily understood in context, even if it isn't solid-gold writing or as deep and detailed as some people want it to be. But the only explanation we're ever going to get for Lancelot and the rest is "they wanted to do it".

What context? You have to headcanon the shit out of the game or say "Well this older game did it so it's fine!" for there to be answers to all of the above questions. Literally, everything about Lost World is so contrived that the answer to every question people have had with it is also "they wanted to do it."

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It is one thing, among many, that I dislike about the games. I don't know where you got the idea that this of all things is the make-or-break issue for me.

I never said it was a make-or-break issue for you. You said yourself that Lancelot looking like Shadowbreaks your suspension of disbelief. I can't sympathize with that.

[JezMM]

3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Comedy is arguable, but I think we can all agree that making your audience curious is a good thing.

But for fairness sake, I will mention big thing that SA1 messed up (no, I'm not talking about Big). The world.

Classic games show Mobius as planet full of magical places like Floating Island, Little Planet or Special Zone.. Adventure era gave us... bunch of cities. I'm okay with idea that humans exist, Eggman came from somwhere, but why spend so much time in them? In that department Unleashed is even worse, showing us map of whole planet, and all nations are copies of real countries.

With that said, I'm not happy with Lost Word either, because everything looks so Mario-ishly fake, I can't pretend it's a real place. (Not in Sonic World anyway). Overall, since Unleashed Sega seems to keep Sonic away from planet. Other dimensions, planets, time travel. Weird.

 

Firstly it's a good idea to try and drop the idea of "Mobius" since it was never intended as canon to the games and sure isn't anymore.

Secondly, Spring Yard, Chemical Plant, Casino Night all have pretty ordinary looking cities in the background.  Carnival Night is more questionable since it's only real explaination is that Eggman built it (and thus the city would likely be a bunch of empty "fake" buildings for decoration but who knows), but yeah.

Just as Twinkle Park and Speed Highway are significantly more zany than the city surrounding them that we see in Station Square, it's not unreasonable to think both types of areas co-exist in the Sonic universe.

Thirdly, honestly I think your feelings about Lost World have a touch of... I guess mental "bias" against them.  Nothing intentional on your part.  The only thing that makes them that unbelievable really is that they're all impractical planetoids floating in the sky rather than a solid, consistent world that FEELS like it could exist co-dependant of the obstacle course that has been set up for our amusement.  Art-wise Lost World is extremely on par with the classic games, but when you see these kind of clean-cut pattern-heavy landscapes made of clear-cut geometric shapes in 3D (and as an adult) it's significantly harder to allow your imagination to "fill in the gaps" left by vague art choices and simple, flat backgrounds.  With 2D designs, especially low-detail pixel art, you build up an idea that everywhere is as detailed as the parts that are.  When that kind of thing is vividly rendered in 3D, you cannot see simple/low detail scenery as anything other than what it is.

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

The Marketing.

Wasn't that little blue pudgy heckraiser pretty much shopped as the anarchist that your stuffed shirt of a teacher told you to stay away from.

 

and from a story perspective, Sonic was downing Death Stars while everyone else was busy saving the princess... just sayin.

Sonic wasn't exactly some flag-burning rebel, he was incredibly "2 kool for skool!!" 90's idea of cool and edgy and even then that was mostly just american marketing.

And "going to a technologically inclined bad guy base and blowing it up" was pretty standard fare for kids' action heroes back in those days.  Sonic still does that in most of the games.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Going further with the conch, there's also things such as why does it have it's power of the Zetis? Why is it one of a kind? How/why was it created? and how did Eggman get his hands on it? None of these are explained either.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I can agree the context of Lost World makes sense such as the conch however I do get that the story doesn't really fill in the blanks well.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

I can agree the context of Lost World makes sense such as the conch however I do get that the story doesn't really fill in the blanks well.

How?

How does it make sense in context?

How does this even make sense? You literally just said two conflicting statements. It can't make sense and also make sense at the same time.