'Dark' and 'Serious' takes on Sonic: Why are They So Taboo?

[FriendBot]

I mean, I like Lost World's story but even I can't defend how it lacks so much context for a lot of things. And the sad thing, it won't even take that much time to give some explanations here and there but lol nope.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 minute ago, Kabalni said:

I mean, I like Lost World's story but even I can't defend how it lacks so much context for a lot of things. And the sad thing, it won't even take that much time to give some explanations here and there but lol nope.

All it would've taken is a few cutscenes and that would be it.

[FriendBot]

Just now, Ryannumber1gamer said:

All it would've taken is a few cutscenes and that would be it.

Not even that, just give the cutscenes more time to flesh out. I'm not lying most of Lost World's cutscenes don't even last for a minute. You can't honestly have good pacing or a chance to go in detail with a lot of things when a game's cutscenes are so damn short.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You said you can accept the entire existence of Eggman Nega and not any of the Storybook expies as being plausible enough to even exist in the first place, which you used as an example to demonstrate that lack of plausibility or previous precedent for new ideas- such as in the case of the storybooks even being magical portals in the first place- was harmful to the series to some degree. You used that term yourself.

I don't accept the "entire" existence of Nega; I accept the mere existence of Nega. I accept this "other Eggman" character plausibly existing due to the explanations given for him. I never said anything about the totality of his existence in the series having better or worse effect on it than the existence of the storybook expies. All the other garbage attached to Nega makes him a worse character and a cause of bigger harm to the series, but on this specific point he has the advantage over the expies.

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The conch is questionable because there is no justification behind it, thus it could be anything, meaning there is a question of why in the world it's a magical conch in the first place and not a magical flute or a magical drumset or an item Eggman made. The fact that it can feasibly exist because "well, there's other magical artifacts" doesn't mean it's not a problematic design decision that is indicative of how arbitrary and meaningless the rest of the storytelling is.

That the conch could have any number of plausible origins is a fundamentally different issue than Lancelot being Shadow having no plausible explanation. I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue that you should be satisfied with the conch because I know that will go nowhere.

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Eggman holding power over them doesn't really translate meaningfully when the scenes play themselves in a way where they could've wrestled away power before Sonic kicked the conch away. Literally the only reason Zavok didn't kill Eggman is because they wanted Sonic to be at fault for their release. It's contrived to the point of being annoying.

I just don't find this to be a reasonable complaint. I'd imagine you could find no end of similar situations where you could say "why doesn't he just grab the gun/hit him from behind/run away now" and so on, and they could have tried, and they may have succeeded, but no one makes an issue over the fact that they don't.

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

And something doesn't have to be a contradiction to not make sense. We have absolutely no information about the Zeti or their motivations outside of the present events of the game. We don't know if they're space pirates or conquerors or anything like that. So when they chase Eggman and Sonic away, they decide to kill off Earth because- what- it'll make them feel better or something? Why don't they just kill them instead? There's no point to this that isn't just for the sake of drama, which is just more contrivance.

They decide to let Eggman's machine continue to drain Earth because they don't give a shit about it and it's giving them super-juice.

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Also... is Angel Island itself described as a legend that may not exist or something?

If you're looking for a quote that is absolutely unambiguous I don't have one, but I think it's a real stretch to interpret the repeated use of "legendary" as something else.

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I never said it was a make-or-break issue for you. You said yourself that Lancelot looking like Shadowbreaks your suspension of disbelief. I can't sympathize with that.

It's one reason, among others, why I think SatBK is not in step with the rest of the series.

[Multikaris]

2 hours ago, Mayor D said:

What exactly is so edgy about the following titles.

Sonic 1

Sonic 2 

Sonic 3?

Sonic 1: Oh no! The fat guy tricked you! Into the watery pit of fear! Otherwise, mostly gameplay-based. (Rolling? Wow!)

Sonic 2: Tails gets shot down! Animals are falling from the sky when you hit the badniks! You fight a doppelganger of yourself! Big-ass laser!

Sonic 3: Angel Island is SET ON FIRE mere moments after you arrive. The zone is set on fire again as Knuckles. A big ship dogs you on the way down! Robotnik starts to drill the fuck out of Marble Garden! The "last zone" isn't the end? Lava Reef is melted! Battle against your doppelganger again, and... he wasn't destroyed this time? The Death Egg rises! Did the bad guy just smash his underling and go super? WOAH, I'M IN SPACE NOW! NOW THERE'S THIS GINORMOUS ROBOT!

 

And was there anything particularly soft, either?

[Nepenthe]

38 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't accept the "entire" existence of Nega; I accept the mere existence of Nega. I accept this "other Eggman" character plausibly existing due to the explanations given for him. I never said anyth about the totality of his existence in the series having better or worse effect on it than the existence of the storybook expies. All the other garbage attached to Nega makes him a worse character and a cause of bigger harm to the series, but on this specific point he has the advantage over the expies.

This ultimately goes into my general opinion over the whole issue. I don't see much value in focusing on whether or not ideas can "merely" exist in the confines of the series or not versus taking into account the big picture, because- along with terrible and contradictory definitions- I feel that's led to people's dissatisfaction. You admit that Nega is an overall worse character so, great, he has a reason to exist. *shrugs*

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I just don't find this to be a reasonable complaint. I'd imagine you could find no end of similar situations where you could say "why doesn't he just grab the gun/hit him from behind/run away now" and so on, and they could have tried, and they may have succeeded, but no one makes an issue over the fact that they don't.

Those aren't comparable situations. Single characters acting dumb in sudden action situations is understandable. But why the hell a group of six demons didn't even try anything in the entire time of their subjugation (which was before the game even started) is unfathomably stupid to me, especially when Zavok touched Eggman and also because the writers could've contrived an area effect from the conch, making it impossible for them to get near or something. It's one annoying situation on top of the rest that makes the story annoying. Like, hell, what the fuck where they gonna do had Sonic not intervened? Be slaves forever?

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They decide to let Eggman's machine continue to drain Earth because they don't give a shit about it and it's giving them super-juice.

They specifically forced the machine to drain the Earth faster because anger, which is dumb. If they were getting energy from it, fair dues.

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If you're looking for a quote that is absolutely unambiguous I don't have one, but I think it's a real stretch to interpret the repeated use of "legendary" as something else.

"Legendary" could also mean it's just part of legends or has some amazing quality about it (like flying). Michael Phelps is "legendary"; he's not hard to find. "Lost" carries a different connotation.

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It's one reason, among others, why I think SatBK is not in step with the rest of the series.

We'll just agree to agree to disagree here.

[Sega DogTagz]

56 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Sonic wasn't exactly some flag-burning rebel, he was incredibly "2 kool for skool!!" 90's idea of cool and edgy and even then that was mostly just american marketing.

And "going to a technologically inclined bad guy base and blowing it up" was pretty standard fare for kids' action heroes back in those days.  Sonic still does that in most of the games.

What ever you want to call it, Sonic's marketing stradagy (over here in the states as you said) was to present him as the alternative to all that was slow and all that was normal and expected. Back in the 90's being radical and in-your-face was edgy. That's exactly what he was presented to be in the context outside of the games.

 

Inside the games you can make the same argument. I don't think anyone would question that Sonic as a character was meant to be interpreted with some kind of edge, but even the events of the simplistic stories lean in that direction. Sonic Team ripped parts right out of popular culture and used them to pump up Sonic's cool factor. They took what was popular at the time, and made it work to adapt to their character. That's essentially the definition of Edgy. Sonic wasn't enough to bring the pain in Sonic 2 so Sonic Team decided that after collecting the 7 Dragonballs, he should be able to turn Super Sayin. Sonic didn't bring down just any technological base, he channeled his inner Luke Skywalker and brought down the Death Star. When Eggman escapes with the Master Emerald, Sonic goes Super Sayin 2 (or whatever you want to call Hyper) and goes to get it back. C'mon seriously. This is Shadow levels of Ow the Edge. They take what is popular and plaster it all over their favorite Hedgehog.

This was being done even as far back as 2 and 3&K. Its always been right there in front of us. 

[JezMM]

2 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

What ever you want to call it, Sonic's marketing stradagy (over here in the states as you said) was to present him as the alternative to all that was slow and all that was normal and expected. Back in the 90's being radical and in-your-face was edgy. That's exactly what he was presented to be in the context outside of the games.

 

Inside the games you can make the same argument. I don't think anyone would question that Sonic as a character was meant to be interpreted with some kind of edge, but even the events of the simplistic stories lean in that direction. Sonic Team ripped parts right out of popular culture and used them to pump up Sonic's cool factor. They took what was popular at the time, and made it work to adapt to their character. That's essentially the definition of Edgy. Sonic wasn't enough to bring the pain in Sonic 2 so Sonic Team decided that after collecting the 7 Dragonballs, he should be able to turn Super Sayin. Sonic didn't bring down just any technological base, he brought down the Death Star. When Eggman escapes with the Master Emerald, Sonic goes Super Sayin 2 (or whatever you want to call Hyper) and goes to get it back. C'mon seriously. This is Shadow levels of Ow the Edge. They take what is popular and plaster it all over their favorite Hedgehog.

This was being done even as far back as 2 and 3&K. Its always been right there in front of us. 

I guess you're right in a sense, but one way or another that stuff was a lot more simple and has aged much better than the "serious" storylines that people are usually talking about when they refer to the "edgey" Sonic games like Shadow and 2006.

At the same time I can't help but notice your first paragraph says "Sonic was doing what no-one else was!" while the second paragraph says "Sonic was taking what other franchises did for it's own!"  Here's the thing, he didn't take down the Death Star, he took down a parody of it.  A big giant metal ball with Eggman's goofy face on it, and after he flew along the sea with birds and dolphins jumping around him.  This is not really Shadow the Hedgehog stuff.

Regardless I hope your argument isn't "Sonic should rip off modern day popular culture like he did in the old days because that is cool and edgy" coz if so I'm gonna go with a resounding fuck no.  I'd take overly chipper happy doo-dah Lost World/Runners Sonic any day over Shrek 3 Sonic.

[Badnik Mechanic]

52 minutes ago, Miru said:

Stuff

So let me get this straight, that is considered edgy...

Then what is this considered?

Simba faces his uncle into a battle to the death due to his manipulation over the death of his father.

How about that Mortal Kombat or Megaman, is that considered edgy too? Contra? Maximum Carnage? Earthworm Jim? How do they fare in terms of dark and edgy?

Honestly I think some people have a 1-10 scale of whats dark and edgy and some think Sonic is up there at 10 when in reality it's about a 3.

 

[E-122-Psi]

I think it largely stems from the fact that 'serious' Sonic stories tend to be infamous for being cringingly pretentious, filled with narmy or equally cliche elements as the sillier stories, or skewing the series to absurd levels just to make said dark story work with it. By the time the Adventure universe arc had progressed into Shadow The Hedgehog, we had about a dozen or so quirky candy coloured anthros working with a military government to protect a photo realistic human city from an alien race that resembled something from a bad sci fi movie. Even before we look into how badly written the whole experience was, you can tell the whole thing is an uneasy mish mash of concepts they just thought were 'cool' at the time.

The problem is that when you set up your story as being serious and depthful, you play yourself with a bigger reputation to earn, you don't have the same lax in suspension of disbelief as a story that is self aware in being silly and can at least make entertainment value out of that. Sonic Satam was sometimes fun as a kids cartoon, but it was still appallingly written in places, and it just becomes laughable when you hear the writers intend to make it on par with a 'blockbuster epic'.

You can say the series was always dark in some contrived way with Eggman's robotics and what not, but the difference there is substance or trying to play itself as having such. There was no intended emphasis on the horrors of these badniks like say the living death of roboticization in the western stories, it was just a provocation for Sonic to save the day, meaning it fell flat far less than the latter when it didn't have emotional impact.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, JezMM said:

I guess you're right in a sense, but one way or another that stuff was a lot more simple and has aged much better than the "serious" storylines that people are usually talking about when they refer to the "edgey" Sonic games like Shadow and 2006.

At the same time I can't help but notice your first paragraph says "Sonic was doing what no-one else was!" while the second paragraph says "Sonic was taking what other franchises did for it's own!"  Here's the thing, he didn't take down the Death Star, he took down a parody of it.  A big giant metal ball with Eggman's goofy face on it, and after he flew along the sea with birds and dolphins jumping around him.  This is not really Shadow the Hedgehog stuff.

Well what was Edgy by 2005 standards (Shth) is obviously different in comparison to what was Edgy in the 90's. But the bottom line still stands. It was the same state of mind the brought Sonic the Super Transformation that later brought Shadow a game full of guns. Both were attempts to make their main character Edgy and relevant with the times. Anyone who thinks that the Edgy factor did not play a role as far back as the classics is fooling themselves. Whether it aged better is largely irrelevant because that is mostly dependent on execution. Doomday Zone was awesome. Shth not so much.

I do realize what I said was something of a contradiction, but that was exactly how Sonic was marketed. They threw that Hog on the corner with a sign that said "Everyone Sucks but me" while at the same time pulling bits and pieces of popular culture to amp up his cool factor.

To be honest, it was a strategy that worked.

 

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Regardless I hope your argument isn't "Sonic should rip off modern day popular culture like he did in the old days because that is cool and edgy" coz if so I'm gonna go with a resounding fuck no.  I'd take overly chipper happy doo-dah Lost World/Runners Sonic any day over Shrek 3 Sonic.

Oh Gods no.

I'm just saying that the storylines to Sonic games have always had some edge to it, even if most people don't see it. We shouldn't overlook the fact that Sonic was designed to be cool. Being edgy and doing edgy things is part of his DNA. We can't turn away from that. From a character standpoint, its how we got Super Sonic. Its how we got Soap Shoes. Its how we got finger-wags, Nike grins and "Your too Slow". From a Gameplay perspective its how we got Grinding. Its how we got Parkour. Its how we got snowboarding down the streets of San Fransisco. Its how we got Strechy-Armed Clobbersaurous and Tube physics. From a Story perspective, its how we got the Death Egg. Its how we got planets exploding multiple times, Its how we got evil fakers. Its how we got awesome movies like the OVA and Night of the Werehog -- all of that comes from various degrees of harnessing the Edge.

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't shy away from Edge even if it takes us down a slightly darker road. For as many failures this franchise has had in using the Edge, there are plenty of succsess stories in there too. Some of the most iconic and cherished stuff about our franchise comes as a result of it. The second most popular character in the cannon comes from it for Christ sake.

So, I say study what went right with the good, what went wrong with the bad and keep stepping forward. No Sonic doesn't need to bend over backwards to adhere to popular culture, but at the same time I expect Eggman to pull a titanfall or Sonic to pick up whatever is new or fresh in urban locomotion. That's just what they were designed to do.

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Mayor D said:

So let me get this straight, that is considered edgy...

Then what is this considered?

Simba faces his uncle into a battle to the death due to his manipulation over the death of his father.

How about that Mortal Kombat or Megaman, is that considered edgy too? Contra? Maximum Carnage? Earthworm Jim? How do they fare in terms of dark and edgy?

Honestly I think some people have a 1-10 scale of whats dark and edgy and some think Sonic is up there at 10 when in reality it's about a 3.

 

That is called good storytelling.

Sonic is not about HOW edgy it is, it's about being on the scale at all. Most Nintendo games outside the mature franchises have a rating from 0-1 with some exceptions. Mortal Kombat is much higher than Sonic, that's for sure.

[Mauricius]

I feel there's an important question to be asked before talking about Sonic's edgyness: What definition of 'Edgy' are we using? Because there's one that makes Edgy mean intense and parallel to dark, and another that says it's something "new and unusual in a way that is likely to make some people uncomfortable".

While I would definitely say Sonic was always higher on the Edge Scale than 3, the first definition indeed doesn't make Classics THAT edgy. But if we are going by the latter, even the Classics are as much edgy as ShtH, while Simba fighting Scar isn't actually that edgy, just intense and dark.

Those are just two extremes of what 'Edgy' can mean, but reading through this thread I can't help but conclude that there are two factions using two different meanings of the same subject.

[MetalSkulkBane]

11 hours ago, JezMM said:

Firstly it's a good idea to try and drop the idea of "Mobius" since it was never intended as canon to the games and sure isn't anymore.

 

If you don't mind I intend to keep it. Eggman Vs Robotnik is sad thing we have to deal with, but when I have to pick between  Mobius or "Sonic World" (or Earth, yeah, sure), then choice is obvious.

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Thirdly, honestly I think your feelings about Lost World have a touch of... I guess mental "bias" against them.  Nothing intentional on your part.  The only thing that makes them that unbelievable really is that they're all impractical planetoids floating in the sky rather than a solid, consistent world that FEELS like it could exist co-dependant of the obstacle course that has been set up for our amusement.  Art-wise Lost World is extremely on par with the classic games, but when you see these kind of clean-cut pattern-heavy landscapes made of clear-cut geometric shapes in 3D (and as an adult) it's significantly harder to allow your imagination to "fill in the gaps" left by vague art choices and simple, flat backgrounds.  With 2D designs, especially low-detail pixel art, you build up an idea that everywhere is as detailed as the parts that are.  When that kind of thing is vividly rendered in 3D, you cannot see simple/low detail scenery as anything other than what it is.

Possible. I played Adventure games first, so when I looked at old games I might have "shaped" those blocky terrains into more realistic ones. Also, I never played Lost World, just watched videos.

Still, classic games weren't blocky by choice, rather by technology limitations. And even there levels were forest and factories, not level made out of food (I know Colors did that too. But that game gave us context). Look at this,

Spoiler

This isn't Sonic, it's Adventure Time. Also, look Lost word cut scene that shows Amy and Knuckles. Do you see trees (that are on Mobius, not Hex). Compare then to, I don't know, Mushroom Hill zone. Even by technology limitations, Sonic 3 trees look natural. Like levels in SA2 or even Heroes.

[Scar]

To me its simply a matter of execution. "Edgy" and "dark" stories have become a taboo for Sonic games, because time and time again SEGA have proven that they simply are not capable of telling a "serious" story particularly well. After all, some of the worst games in Sonic history were the "serious" ones. Any good-will or enjoyment people outside our quaint fanbase had with the stories of SA1 or SA2 was washed away by Shadow and Sonic 06. Basically what Nepenthe said on the first page.

And this doesn't just affect the actual narratives. It affects gameplay. The extended cast became so cancerous to the franchise circa 2006 that people have abandoned the idea that they were ever good to begin with, to the point where their mere presence in the story as side-pieces was considered a negative or an annoyance in Generations despite them playing so minor a role, they were basically irrelevant.

In order for the idea of slightly more impactful narrative, or one with more stakes to be acceptable, SEGA needs to stop shitting the bed with the games for a start. Once people can accept that a good Sonic game can exist, then they may once again be open to seeing something a little more involved. Better yet, make a good game with a good plot. Yes, even if the game is good, initially people will write-off the plot as the usual garbage, but keep doing it, and in time people may look back on it fondly and realise that it was better than they originally gave it credit for.

[Multikaris]

7 hours ago, Scar said:

To me its simply a matter of execution. "Edgy" and "dark" stories have become a taboo for Sonic games, because time and time again SEGA have proven that they simply are not capable of telling a "serious" story particularly well. After all, some of the worst games in Sonic history were the "serious" ones. Any good-will or enjoyment people outside our quaint fanbase had with the stories of SA1 or SA2 was washed away by Shadow and Sonic 06. Basically what Nepenthe said on the first page.

And this doesn't just affect the actual narratives. It affects gameplay. The extended cast became so cancerous to the franchise circa 2006 that people have abandoned the idea that they were ever good to begin with, to the point where their mere presence in the story as side-pieces was considered a negative or an annoyance in Generations despite them playing so minor a role, they were basically irrelevant.

In order for the idea of slightly more impactful narrative, or one with more stakes to be acceptable, SEGA needs to stop shitting the bed with the games for a start. Once people can accept that a good Sonic game can exist, then they may once again be open to seeing something a little more involved. Better yet, make a good game with a good plot. Yes, even if the game is good, initially people will write-off the plot as the usual garbage, but keep doing it, and in time people may look back on it fondly and realise that it was better than they originally gave it credit for.

So in other words, a streak of badly-recived goofy Sola-Sonica games is a good thing for this franchise in the long run (i.e. a wildfire) so serious games can return? In that case, I just LOVE how F&I is coming out this year.

 

Or we, like you said, could just try making good serious games.

[JezMM]

10 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

If you don't mind I intend to keep it. Eggman Vs Robotnik is sad thing we have to deal with, but when I have to pick between  Mobius or "Sonic World" (or Earth, yeah, sure), then choice is obvious.

Possible. I played Adventure games first, so when I looked at old games I might have "shaped" those blocky terrains into more realistic ones. Also, I never played Lost World, just watched videos.

Still, classic games weren't blocky by choice, rather by technology limitations. And even there levels were forest and factories, not level made out of food (I know Colors did that too. But that game gave us context). Look at this,

  Hide contents

This isn't Sonic, it's Adventure Time. Also, look Lost word cut scene that shows Amy and Knuckles. Do you see trees (that are on Mobius, not Hex). Compare then to, I don't know, Mushroom Hill zone. Even by technology limitations, Sonic 3 trees look natural. Like levels in SA2 or even Heroes.

Re: Hidden World Zone is too surreal and bizarre for Sonic

Re: The plants on home planet are too geometric/stylised/unrealistic looking for Sonic

You're right that Sonic 3 & Knuckles had a slightly more detailed/lush/realistic design for it's flora and locales, but honestly to me that's just a further sign that even in the classic trilogy, both unusual and realistic looking locations exist in Sonic's universe.  I'm okay with it myself, though I would like to see a game that finds a nice middle ground between both ends of the spectrum while still allowing some levels to lean further towards one end.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Here is why a dark and edgy Sonic doesn't work. This is a really good fan recreation of Sonic Adventure 1's intro...

Except for one problem... Sonic looks so badly out of place.

The re-creation is really good, not knocking the talent that went into it at all, but... there are some artistic decisions which make this more 'edgy' and 'darker' in tone which do not suit Sonic at all, the main offending articles come when Chaos 'attacks'.

In the original, yes the police used guns to shoot chaos, but they were semi automatic and only a few cops. Now we have an entire swat team with automatic weapons.

Take out chaos and it looks almost like a scene from Resident Evil during the Raccoon City outbreak, actually leave Chaos in there and it looks like that.

Then Sonic appears and the cop almost gives him a look of 'what the fuck are you doing in this game?' Which is exactly the problem, take Sonic out and this looks like the set up to a great monster or zombie game, put Sonic in there and it looks out of place. Even Eggman, as good as he looks appears really out of place.

Even the follow up scene, whilst well done, it also just showcases how out of place he looks in an ow the edge moment of with Chaos, even with how terribly acted that follow up scene is, it works and fits with what Sonic is.

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Here is why a dark and edgy Sonic doesn't work. This is a really good fan recreation of Sonic Adventure 1's intro...

Except for one problem... Sonic looks so badly out of place.

The re-creation is really good, not knocking the talent that went into it at all, but... there are some artistic decisions which make this more 'edgy' and 'darker' in tone which do not suit Sonic at all, the main offending articles come when Chaos 'attacks'.

In the original, yes the police used guns to shoot chaos, but they were semi automatic and only a few cops. Now we have an entire swat team with automatic weapons.

Take out chaos and it looks almost like a scene from Resident Evil during the Raccoon City outbreak, actually leave Chaos in there and it looks like that.

Then Sonic appears and the cop almost gives him a look of 'what the fuck are you doing in this game?' Which is exactly the problem, take Sonic out and this looks like the set up to a great monster or zombie game, put Sonic in there and it looks out of place. Even Eggman, as good as he looks appears really out of place.

Even the follow up scene, whilst well done, it also just showcases how out of place he looks in an ow the edge moment of with Chaos, even with how terribly acted that follow up scene is, it works and fits with what Sonic is.

 

I think the things you're citing have more to do with artstyle/presentation issues than the subject matter. "Authorities attack a water monster" Isn't some dark and edgy thing. If the humans looked more in line with how Eggman looks instead, or were just animals like Sonic, and weren't wielding realistic rifles, you'd probably have no problem with the scene. It also would get the same point across that Chaos is dangerous without anything looking out of place.

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think the things you're citing have more to do with artstyle/presentation issues than the subject matter.

That's all a part of being "dark" and "serious", though. The original's relative cheesiness and hokeyness (even though it was accidental) softens it, while this remake is a bit more polished and plays it straight which, at least to me, ends up making it feel more awkward.

24 minutes ago, Wraith said:

If the humans looked more in line with how Eggman looks instead, or were just animals like Sonic, and weren't wielding realistic rifles, you'd probably have no problem with the scene.

Honestly having some kind of animal police force shooting laser guns at Chaos sounds infinitely more cringe inducing to me.

[Wraith]

 

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's all a part of being "dark" and "serious", though. The original's relative cheesiness and hokeyness (even though it was accidental) softens it, while this remake is a bit more polished and plays it straight which, at least to me, ends up making it feel more awkward.

Well...yeah. I never said the remake wasn't problematic. Just that the inherent idea behind the scene isn't flawed. Because it's not. Just change the way it's presented.

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Honestly having some kind of animal police force shooting laser guns at Chaos sounds infinitely more cringe inducing to me.

I kind of find it hard to believe that it would be that bad compared to Sonic standing next to the US police force. 

If it bothers you that much, make the humans like they look in Unleashed. 

[Osmium]

22 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Honestly having some kind of animal police force shooting laser guns at Chaos sounds infinitely more cringe inducing to me.

Wraith already said it but I really want to know how animals using cartoony weapons manages to be more cringeworthy than Sonic standing next to a bunch of realistically proportioned people using realistic weapons on a fucking blob monster. 

[Nepenthe]

It seems to be a bit of a red herring that people dissatisfied with the current direction are inherently looking for photorealistic SWAT teams shooting realistic automatic rifles at nightmare fuel water monsters versus a game that simply doesn't endeavor to shit all over its base premises because "cartoon." Unleashed managed to use humor without constantly poking you in the ribs and winking while simultaneously writing a story that wasn't afraid to be sincere, and no one complains about its tone. Like, at all.

[E-122-Psi]

The Sonic X adaptation was slightly less contrasting due to the more cartoony atmosphere and animation of the whole thing instead of just Sonic and Eggman, even then though it was context that balanced it, since the whole point of Sonic X was that Sonic was an alien in the humans' world. Even an official cartoon made fun of how ridiculous Sonic Adventure's environment was; 'These two things can not possibly be of the same universe'.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, ShroomZ said:

Wraith already said it but I really want to know how animals using semi-cartoony weapons manages to be more cringeworthy than Sonic standing next to a bunch of realistically proportioned people using realistic weapons on a fucking blob monster. 

Because in a relatively serious situation, a Sonic-styled cartoon animal police force feels more out of place for me than human police. As it is, it's got a bit of a schlocky monster movie vibe, and I don't think that would carry over if they were a bunch of cartoon animals.