'Dark' and 'Serious' takes on Sonic: Why are They So Taboo?

[Lucid Dream]

I think that whatever generation people were grown up in is irrelevant at this point.

Sonic colours had a GODAWFUL story. To call it a "story" is an insult to writers. I loved the game and the light hearted tone, but that does not excuse the worst writing in Sonic. Sonic legitimately had done absolutely nothing throughout the entire game. He didn't even need to be there. And, despite all the hints that maybe Eggman was going to do good, or maybe there's going to be an interesting mind control plot, nope. We just get a story that is basically Eggman is using alien energy to create a mind control weapon (repeat this a few dozen times) -> Sonic appears and does stuff -> Sonic actually does nothing and Eggmans shit explodes for no reason -> they fight cause why not? -> YAY SONIC TAILS TEMWURK SAVS DAY (even though neither of them did anything).  It's worse than Silver and Espios story in Sonic Rivals 2.  

Sonic Colours is an example of a game that literally kills your sense of accomplishment when you complete the game, due to how unbelievably godawful the story is. You can praise the tone of the game, that's fine, but for some reason, it appears to be a popular opinion that Sonic Colours was going in the right direction for a Sonic story. 

At this point, I'm just going to say how good or bad the Sonic story is, is entirely and completely irrelevant. It is an entirely meaningless, because nobody appears to care. All that seems to matter now is tone and character interaction. Reviewers are actually claiming Sonic Colours story is good.

I just kinda want Sonic to return to having a story that I can stomach, or even like. I far prefer Sonic Heroes story over Sonic Colours, because the characterisation of Metal Sonic was pretty darn good and interesting, although vague. At least in Shadow the Hedgehog, the interaction between Shadow and others (especcially Sonic) was pretty fun. I don't even care what kind of Story Sonic goes into. As long as Sonic takes a looooong shot away from the awful story that is Sonic Colours than I am happy. And as long as Sonic has some personality and character. Otherwise it wouldn't really be Sonic. 

Sonic Battle would be a favourite example. It had the usual crappy story, but it never deterred from the character development or interaction. Even though it was a light hearted game for the most part, Shadows story had answered more questions than ShtH (and was pretty sweet), Emerls story had a very sad ending and Amy's story was silly but showed how hard working, medically ill, and powerful Amy actually is. Sonic actually showed that he cares about others, and actually dislikes/likes several characters. I feel that the representation of character like Tails and Cream were spot on, with Tails actually being a 8 year old(!) genius and Cream being the annoying pacifist. It was largely light hearted, with slightly darker tones, but became more serious when the situation called for it. Characters developed, and were interesting. I enjoyed the dialogue. Eggmans plan was complete BS at the end, but whatever. 

TBH, I feel like everybody just wants everything to be extremely simple and basic (which isn't bad at all) to the point of criticising anything that isn't simple and basic. Remember floral designs, Persian rugs, intricate Baroque music, lace, etcetc? I find that, if I present anything that doesn't force people to call it beautiful despite it's intricateness, than it will get bashed for its complexity. Since Sonic doesn't actually amaze anyone with its "complex stories", it's not surprising it will be bashed for not being as simple as possible when it can be. 

[Diogenes]

4 hours ago, Lucidream said:

Sonic colours had a GODAWFUL story. To call it a "story" is an insult to writers. I loved the game and the light hearted tone, but that does not excuse the worst writing in Sonic. Sonic legitimately had done absolutely nothing throughout the entire game. He didn't even need to be there.

If Sonic hadn't been there, no one would've destroyed the Tropical Resort boss, and its debris wouldn't have damaged the mind control ray, which is what causes it to self-destruct, which causes a black hole which destroys the rest of the resort.

Not to mention all the robots destroyed and wisps freed along the way, and shutting down the generators so Planet Wisp and the other planetoids didn't get dragged into the black hole.

[Tara]

Sonic Colors' story was pretty barebones, but to say it has none whatsoever (or that Sonic's presence was unnecessary) really seems to be stretching it to justify a point.

[FriendBot]

I mean, I'm not a huge fan of Colors' story myself (never was to be honest, only really liked how Sonic and Tails interacted with one another and Eggman) but trying to say it's awful is a bit of stretch for me unless you really, really don't like the sillier, cartoony tone of the game. It's just meh, it's a basic story but instead of using that simple story to really develop the characters; Pontac and Graff spent most of the time making jokes that aren't that funny and yeah, that's lame. 

But hey, the dialogue in the DS version is great improvement and is actually a pretty enjoyable story in its own right. Guess it helps that the DS version includes the main cast as well. Haphazardly, no doubt but when they're there; it's a good time.

[Lucid Dream]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

If Sonic hadn't been there, no one would've destroyed the Tropical Resort boss, and its debris wouldn't have damaged the mind control ray, which is what causes it to self-destruct, which causes a black hole which destroys the rest of the resort.

Not to mention all the robots destroyed and wisps freed along the way, and shutting down the generators so Planet Wisp and the other planetoids didn't get dragged into the black hole.

So from Tropical Resort onwards, Sonics presence was absolutely useless. That's only marginally better. Tails was still absolutely and entirely pointless and useless throughout the story. The robots would have been destroyed when the entire resort when down. Destroying them was completely unnecesary and the wisps would have been freed when the resort when down. Well, ok fine I admit that Sonic Colours isn't on the godawful level of Sonic Rivals 2 Silver/Espio story. 

I think you guys are missing my point. My point isn't that it's bad that Sonics and Tails' presence was near meaningless. Sonic isn't a hero as much as he an adventurer, which is what he normally acts like. So him just mucking around with Eggman and not really doing much is fine by me. Could be quite the enjoyable comedic situation. Although, as somebody has already elaborated upon, Sonic Colours isn't exactly Comedy gold... It has some fun interactions though.

But trying to pretend that Sonic is a hero and did everything is ridiculous. Why is Eggman cursing Sonic when he mostly screwed up? And don't get me started on Tails. He literally did absolutely nothing, not even one single remotely helpful thing. The story almost pointed this out, and that would make a good comical moment. But nope, the story had to pretend Tails was useful because teamwork. Tails was also a bitch in Lost World... 

I enjoy relaxing tones a lot. Sonic Colours had a fairly enjoyable laid bacak tone to it. But when the story throws so much bullshit in my face and repeats "Oh noes Eggman is making wisp energy" for the umpteenth time, yes I am going to be exhausted. And pissed. No Sonic story has gotten this low, and this story is something that should never be supported. 

Well it was a beautiful and pretty fun game so I guess it's ok. I'll play Sonic Colours DS which seems more character based and better. I'll just pretend that that is the real story behind Sonic Colours. 

[Nepenthe]

The story is pretty terrible. Tails is pretty shoehorned into the plot considering he's fixing the translator the entire time which doesn't really give any necessary context to the situation, and the one time he is seriously involved they drop it immediately because it was more of an overwrought way to demonstrate Eggman's true scheme than to add further conflict. One of the characters disappears for no reason at all and they don't really give a damn to find him. Eggman doesn't actively go out of his way to stop Sonic while he's destroying the generators on the planets, only sending out bots to do it who consistently get thrashed, and he only gets off his ass when the entire thing is already coming down and not salvageable, and coupled with neither character actually taking Eggman seriously as a threat, there's no real stakes at hand. There's no underlying themes or meaning to add a little substance to the basic text. It's an excuse plot only outdone in excuse plot-iness by Generations.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

So from Tropical Resort onwards, Sonics presence was absolutely useless.

Guess you missed the second half of my post.

2 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

But trying to pretend that Sonic is a hero and did everything is ridiculous. Why is Eggman cursing Sonic when he mostly screwed up?

Because if Sonic hadn't been there smashing his shit, his plan would've gone off without a hitch. And if Sonic hadn't been there continually smashing his shit, maybe he would've realized there was a problem with his machine before it exploded.

2 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

I'll play Sonic Colours DS which seems more character based and better. I'll just pretend that that is the real story behind Sonic Colours. 

Yeah, play that and pretend it's better when it's the same plot plus a dozen do-nothing characters.

[Tara]

In addition to what Diogenes said, it's not like we expect Eggman to fess up to his own mistakes.  His ego would never permit it.

[Lucid Dream]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Guess you missed the second half of my post.

Because if Sonic hadn't been there smashing his shit, his plan would've gone off without a hitch. And if Sonic hadn't been there continually smashing his shit, maybe he would've realized there was a problem with his machine before it exploded.

Yeah, play that and pretend it's better when it's the same plot plus a dozen do-nothing characters.

Well I kinda ignored the second half of your post because I have no idea where you got the black hole thing from. Where did you get any of that information, because I don't remember it. 

Anyway, Sonic didn't save enough wisps to stop Eggman from readying his machine. Most of them got saved when the resort blew up. And the robots are irrelevant, most would die when the resort blew up. If a bit of debri from 1 robot managed to bring his entire canon crumbling, than I sincerely doubt that Sonic had much to do with Eggmans machine failure. That thing is way too sensitive. Did Eggman ever really even care that Sonic was smashing his shit until the very end anyway?

Why are we even arguing this? I think you can at least agree that Sonic Colours has a bad story. My main point is that Sonic Colours has an especcially crap story that is praised for no reason other than its tone. And that is not ok. Something like Sonic Colours should not happen again. Having other characters, even if they are do-nothings, still makes the character interaction more fun and interesting. 

[ccawley2011]

2 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Well I kinda ignored the second half of your post because I have no idea where you got the black hole thing from. Where did you get any of that information, because I don't remember it. 

However, the final cutscene shows the Wisps solving everything (and the black hole turning all the Nega-Wisps back to normal somehow), so the only problem that would remain unsolved without Sonic's involvement would be Planet Wisp returning to its original spot in the galaxy (assuming that the generators still keep the planets in place without Tropical Resort, which seems unlikely). Then again, Sonic didn't realise that Rotatatron's (or Globotron's) arm was stuck in the cannon, so there's no reason for him to just leave and assume that everything will sort itself out.

[Diogenes]

33 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Well I kinda ignored the second half of your post because I have no idea where you got the black hole thing from. Where did you get any of that information, because I don't remember it. 

The end of the game, when Tropical Resort got sucked into a black hole and the planetoids didn't.

33 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Anyway, Sonic didn't save enough wisps to stop Eggman from readying his machine.

Yeah he only saved hundreds of innocent lives from imprisonment and torture, that doesn't count for anything.

33 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

If a bit of debri from 1 robot managed to bring his entire canon crumbling, than I sincerely doubt that Sonic had much to do with Eggmans machine failure. That thing is way too sensitive.

Sensitive or not it is the shrapnel from that fight that stopped the machine, and that would not have happened if Sonic hadn't been there.

33 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

 Did Eggman ever really even care that Sonic was smashing his shit until the very end anyway?

...yes? Because he always does?

33 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Why are we even arguing this?

Because you posted nonsense in lieu of actual criticism. There's plenty about the story and writing that can be fairly criticized, but saying "Sonic didn't do anything" is not fair criticism.

33 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

I think you can at least agree that Sonic Colours has a bad story.

I wouldn't go that far. As I said there's plenty to criticize, but I found it overall enjoyable and a genuine relief at a time when games like ShtH and '06 were still in recent memory. Trim out the translator jokes and explain Yacker's disappearance and I wouldn't have much problem with it, myself.

33 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Having other characters, even if they are do-nothings, still makes the character interaction more fun and interesting. 

Quantity is not a replacement for quality. The interactions between Sonic and Tails clearly didn't save the writing in your mind, I don't see why loading the game with a bunch of characters who are even less relevant, some whose inclusion is borderline nonsensical, is going to help.

[Lucid Dream]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Because you posted nonsense in lieu of actual criticism. There's plenty about the story and writing that can be fairly criticized, but saying "Sonic didn't do anything" is not fair criticism.

you're missing my point entirely. Infact, it makes me wonder if you even read my first post. When a kid bumps into a house and the house immediately crumbles, you don't say the kid destroyed the house with his strength, but that the architect of the house was awful and is largely at fault. 

Also that was a side point. My primary point was that the story itself is hugely underwhelming, with a lot of interesting plot ideas being shown and thrown. Nothing really happens in the story. Debris from the first boss is what stopped Eggman. Not destroying all those generators, or destroying the plethora of other robots you fought. No, just some lame debris that coincidentally hit the canon from the first goddamn boss. The mind control idea amounts to nothing, the translator amounts to nothing, Tails amounts to nothing, Eggman potentially being a good guy amounts to nothing. This is my point, and my criticisement. Most of which you don't touch or mention. It's quite hypocritical of you to say I'm posting nonsense in lieu of actual criticism when you don't even mention my primary point. 

As for the black hole, I just assumed the thing at the end was just a big explosion... A black hole is a lot more devastating, and would probably destroy the planetoids. And kill Sonic with ease. If that was a black hole, than Sonic was really lucky that it didn't destroy absolutely everything. 

Just because Sonic saved a few wisps, does not make the story O.K all of a sudden.  And yes, some nice interaction between Sonic and Tails does not save a shitty story, and it never will. But it does make things more fun. Now stop getting so pissed over me enjoying character interaction. 

[Diogenes]

17 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

you're missing my point entirely. Infact, it makes me wonder if you even read my first post. When a kid bumps into a house and the house immediately crumbles, you don't say the kid destroyed the house with his strength, but that the architect of the house was awful and is largely at fault. 

I certainly would say that the kid destroyed the house, regardless of how fragile it may have been. Would you blame nature for glass being fragile after a kid puts a baseball through it? If you knock over a vase and it shatters, is that somehow the potter's fault, not yours? And we're talking about complicated machinery running on obscenely high power being punctured by a massive metal arm, here; it is not hard to believe that that would do serious damage. And, regardless of all of that, the point is that it still happened because of what Sonic did, and it would not have happened had he not been there.

17 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Also that was a side point. My primary point was that the story itself is hugely underwhelming, with a lot of interesting plot ideas being shown and thrown. Nothing really happens in the story. Debris from the first boss is what stopped Eggman. Not destroying all those generators, or destroying the plethora of other robots you fought. No, just some lame debris that coincidentally hit the canon from the first goddamn boss.

If you think that's underwhelming that's your opinion, but personally I found it a nice twist, more interesting than just having Sonic smash it directly.

17 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

The mind control idea amounts to nothing, the translator amounts to nothing, Tails amounts to nothing, Eggman potentially being a good guy amounts to nothing.

The mind control ray establishes the consequences of failure, Tails and his translator add some context to the events, and Eggman was never "potentially" good, it was the most obviously transparent cover possible, because it was a joke. Could these things have been expanded on in the game? Of course. Would it have been better if they were? Maybe some of them. Do they contribute nothing? No.

17 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

This is my point, and my criticisement. Most of which you don't touch or mention. It's quite hypocritical of you to say I'm posting nonsense in lieu of actual criticism when you don't even mention my primary point. 

There's nothing hypocritical about pointing out something dumb you said.

17 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

As for the black hole, I just assumed the thing at the end was just a big explosion... A black hole is a lot more devastating, and would probably destroy the planetoids. And kill Sonic with ease. If that was a black hole, than Sonic was really lucky that it didn't destroy absolutely everything. 

Normal explosions blow out, not suck in. There might be room to quibble over whether it's a realistically-functioning black hole (it's honestly not, it runs on cartoon logic like everything else), but it clearly and unambiguously sucks in everything around it. This has been a weird trend with some of the criticism of recent games, people complaining so much about how simple they are while missing or misunderstanding things that should be incredibly obvious.

[Tara]

58 minutes ago, Lucidream said:

Now stop getting so pissed over me enjoying character interaction. 

 

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

There's nothing hypocritical about pointing out something dumb you said.

Let's be civil here, guys.  You can each state your points without getting heated.

[Darth InVaders]

On August 18, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Myst said:

ALERT! ALERT! UNPOPULAR OPINION!

WARNING: The following post contains statements you WILL disagree with!  

'Dark' and 'Serious' takes on Sonic: Why are They So Taboo? Or: More Whining from a Sonic Fan

I've noticed a trend in recent years: Whenever critics or gamers in general criticize Sonic, the common complaint is 'dark and edgy' storylines found in games like Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006, Sonic & the Black Knight and the sort have no place in the franchise. 

Sega seems to have taken these criticisms to heart, as all recent entries in the series have had a more.. juvenile and comedic form of storytelling. The stories don't feel rich and grand like in the Adventure series (Or heck, even the Genesis titles) they feel a bit cheap, as though they are pandering to the lowest common denominator. 

 

Am I, your fire?
Your one, desire,
Yes I know, it's too late,
But I Want It Thaaat Waayy

 

If you recall, during the development of Sonic Adventure, Yuji Naka and the Team traveled to South America for inspiration in setting out the premise of the game. They really put effort into crafting what the game's story would be.

But nowadays stories with action in them, stories where the stakes are raised, and the feeling is epic and the scale is on a much grander level are sneered at by critics and gaming sites. (Almost immediately critics shunned Project 2017 after its reveal at the party) Why is this? Because Sonic is a blue hedgehog? What does that matter? In the world of fiction, anything goes, the story limited only by the creators imagination.

I can think of plenty of franchises which have off-the-wall premises that are treated with care and dignity. Transformers was nothing more than a toy commercial in the 80s, but when translated into film, it was played totally straight, with massive special effects and stuntwork. There was comedy, but overall it was a big-budget summer blockbuster,  with the action between the robots being quite brutual at times. ("I WANT YOUR FACE!") I am by no means a Bayformers fan, I merely cite that as an example.

The original TMNT comic-books were known for being violent and dark, despite the cartoony nature of the characters. I can't help but feel there is a double-standard here. THOSE completely ridiculous, off-the-wall kids franchises can be taken seriously, but Sonic the Hedgehog? Heavens no.

 

Saturday Mornings on Nickelodeon!

 

Critics use Sonic 2006 and Shadow the Hedgehog as textbook examples of why serious storylines don't belong in Sonic. True, the storylines in those games were terrible, but that was due to poor writing and voicework, not the tone of the story. By that logic, DC should look at the failures of Batman V Superman and Suicide Squad, and decide Batman must be campy, because those two misfires weren't critically acclaimed. 

It's frustrating to me, because being 'edgy' was what drew me to Sonic in the 90s. Back then, there were no cutscenes in games. You would read the manuals and get the premise of the story from that. The idea of a mad scientist turning the inhabitants of the world into his robot slaves, was so.. badass to me as a child. My young mind saw Sonic as a valiant hero going on an epic journey to defeat an unstoppable foe in Sonic 1. 

The music of that game further cemented that. Those ominous drums in Final Zone, the haunting theme of Marble Zone, and the peaceful melody of Star Light Zone helped give that game an epic feel to me. The sequels upped in ante, with greater speed, a more established story, and even more exciting music (dat Chemical Plant)

SatAM wasn't exactly my thing, but the people at DiC seem like-minded as their portayal of Sonic was definitely one of the more serious takes on the character. Underground and the comics followed a similar route, and as I mentioned, the Adventure series was pretty epic. Edgy storylines in Sonic isn't some new thing. It's ALWAYS been a part of the franchise, with a few exceptions here and there (Hello AoStH) That was the franchise's appeal to me. So why, 20 years later, is it frowned upon so much? 

 

Gaaaah, make it go away!

 

Look, I'm not asking for Sonic to be Batman. I don't want Shadow to start using guns again, I don't want cursing in Sonic. It's just.. things have changed. Nowadays, Sega seems intent on making Sonic as silly as possible. Sonic's now fighting cans of Tomato Sauce, and having sleepovers with Eggman.

 

What happened to saving the planet? What happened to collecting magical gems, traveling through time, fighting ancient monsters? What happened to raising the stakes, having a sense of danger? What happened to Eggman being a legitimate threat? Are we doomed to silliness for as long as this franchise will last?

 

 

 

Dark and serious is not Sonic-y because Sonic did not start as all that dark or serious - although those elements were there, they were bowed by a strong balance of humor and fun atmosphere. Sonic's character was a bit clumsy in a comical sense - for example if you moved his sprite close enough to an edge, he would teeter on it with a comical animation, and then there is any Eggman animation in those classic games (not to mention Engman's very design looks like a clown). Yes Sonic was also epic with big intimidating Death Eggs and nasty robots but then again those were also partly goofy Star Wars parodies and robots designed to look like either Sonic himself or Eggman that balanced it and made sure it did not rise to being too dark and serious. There were frequent bright colors in most of the stages, only to tone down as the climax approached. And yes the destruction of ancient civilizations were almost always brought up in the manual's stories but never to the point of throwing off the balance with humor and fun. So really the only dark and serious stuff was pushed down to the back seat, it was only there to build suspense but never front and center.

Furthermore I feel that neither Sonic Adventure or Sonic Unleashed got too dark and serious (which like the classics remained in the background) because both kept up a very strong (almost perfect) balance of humor and fun. It kept in the comical lighthearted stuff from the classics such as Sonic's animations (watch his animations when Tails crashes his plane or when he jumps off the EggCarrier and slams face first into Mystic Ruins in Adventure, or just name any of the lots of moments in Unleashed) with the small amount of dark stuff in Adventure contained in short flashbacks and merely meant to build up the threat of its big bad. On top of that the optimism displayed in both stories was very high.

Then there is crap like Sonic06 and Shadow which had barely any (if any) humor at all while bringing the dark and serious to center stage. With no balance of humor to the seriousness, these games seem dark for the sake of being dark because dark is "cool" or something. But there was lots of possible room for humor in Shadow's game - it just had to be a parody of the dark and serious crap it was, instead it played that dark and serious crap straight. And honestly I cannot think of any ways of saving Sonic06 short of turning Elise into a hyperactive character like Sara from the OVA.

The problem with comparing Sonic to Ninja Turtles is what the two series were founded on: as I said Sonic was not founded on dark and serious but TMNT was (kinda). TMNT was built as a parody of all the overly dark and serious crap in all the major comic books at that time, and TMNT was meant to sort of mock the ridiculous level of dark and serious by putting ridiculous characters into such an atmosphere. Hell the original TMNT origin story even parodies the origin of Daredevil which was one of the worst offenders of being ridiculously dark and serious back then.

So the real problem with modern Sonic is not so much that the stories are devoid of dark and serious, but that they are devoid of epic-ness (a feeling of being of grand scale), and of suspense where the bad guy might win. Sonic Colors and Generations did not work because the threat never changed the status quo - in Adventure, Tails got separated from Sonic when the power of the EggCarrier overwhelmed them and their plane went down, Eggman kept stealing the Emeralds and making his pet monster stronger so the status quo kept changing, but in Colors the big change is Yacker vanished while off screen. There is very little hook to make the player think "what's going to happen next" - a tinge of a creeping dark and serious that in the background threatening to come out like it did in the best games does not hurt, but it should never take front and center which is what it seems certain fans keep asking for.

[Shadowlax]

23 hours ago, Tara said:

In addition to what Diogenes said, it's not like we expect Eggman to fess up to his own mistakes.  His ego would never permit it.

He has before

Though it was towards shadow, I would imagine though...you would be quick to apologize to someone who has a lower moral hill to climb to get to murder.

[Shadowlax]

On 9/2/2016 at 0:26 AM, Tara said:

 

It's why I think Sega's lack of commitment to follow up with ideas is worse than their lack of consistency.

I'm gonna... I'm gonna steal this, just letting you know.

 

On 9/1/2016 at 11:51 PM, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

A fan is a fan, but honestly, as much of a voice they have, and the input they give, certain fans have a very over-inflated sense of worth over others that are more flexible. If someone's idea of compromise is "we can have all these things as long as my thing gets the forefront" then perhaps that person needs to check their ego, because they're not the only fan who wants something out of this franchise. Some want more intense plots than what we've had, but that doesn't mean those that want more humor should fuck off, nor does having humor mean it should come at the expense of intensity - and you never know if those who like more intense plots also like and would desire humor alongside it, hence compromise.

I feel like the day decides the type and amount of criticism. I don't think anyone is telling anyone who likes comedy in sonic to fuck off, infact I would argue the opposite, but you hearing a surplus of disdain for sonic being silly and rather nothing of note in some peoples eyes is because that's what sonic is at the moment. And in the early 00's there were people screaming the opposite.

As far as inflated sense of self worth is concerned, well. Sonic mania exists, and classic sonic is in the '17 trailer. I mean if you feel that way its bout to get worse. To games being giant monuments of " Why you should never compromise with sega ever" . This is neither a condemnation or support of those people I just want to point out that if you feel that way, its going to get worse, because they have gotten results now.

 

[Shadowlax]

16 hours ago, Darth InVaders said:

There is very little hook to make the player think "what's going to happen next" - a tinge of a creeping dark and serious that in the background threatening to come out like it did in the best games does not hurt, but it should never take front and center which is what it seems certain fans keep asking for.

Eh , no I think that a " darker" Story could be front and center, I think have to do it well. There are plenty of kind of " Wow that's kind of fucked up " media that is out there for young people and older people who happen to read them to absorb. While I agree with you the epicness and scale is gone I don't think there is anything against a game turning a corner and going " wow that's kinda fucked up ". I think the hope for that, kind of speaks  the continued popularity of some elements of the series, like shadow for instance.I think Shadow's game and 06 were examples of doing it poorly but a game giving you of " that's kind of fucked up" feeling by the end of it isn't the worst thing in the world, it can be great if you do it well enough.

Though If i may voice my own personal desires, I would like " that's kind of fucked up " but more weird than dark. While I myself like shadow and not really averse to dark, I kind of like the weird in sonic games. And that's gone, sonic just jokes and goofs and gaffs, I want weird stuff. You say that shadow was bad because it played it strait, no play it straighter, the only reason it was bad was gameplay and its odd thematic decision to use guns. But outside of that the weird plot that was that game was kind of hilarious and cool. I would ask to to look in the direction of one of my favorite games Metal Gear Rising, Metal Gear a series known for while having jokes playing the craziness of its narrative 100% strait. Metal Gear rising is even more that, to the very end where you are fighting a senator on the mech. They don't really joke about it, the joke is that thing is happening. You are supposed to be loosing your shit about how ridiculous this is but if raiden went " hey look we are fighting a US senator on a mech, isn't that crazy " like sonic is so apt to do nowadays, the joke is ruined. And if you want a less bloody take on that sort of thing, look at kingdom hearts, or many final fantasies, if were to explain the plot to most of those games it would sound like the inane ramblings of crazy people. But Terra to Barts, to Cloud , to now Noctis, all of them jokers take whatever they are going through seriously. Its them taking the situation seriously which allows me to get invested past said ridiculousness. That's what I miss, sonic now is a sassy point at the camera kind of guy. But he's not that funnier.

He was funnier when he was yelling at some random stranger that vaguely looked like him that he was his faker because some people are blind. Who reacts to a situation like that, that's stupid, I love it.

There is a genuine lack of unabashed stupidity in sonic that I am sorely missing, that I hoped sonic boom why try and get back but I was mistaken.

[MadmanRB]

I dont think "dark" is the issue.

Its execution where things can go pear shaped.

For me the SatAM is my favorite incarnation and for the most part it got dark right.

Sure it was not perfect and when it tried comedy it failed hard.

But we should not treat dark as a bad thing.

After all there are many things out there targeted at younger audiences that are very dark under the surface.

The common thought is if its for kids it must be silly and goofy but look how many things out there are more adult then they look.

Right now Sonic going dark again is a good thing, and I am eager for that rumored movie to reverse the loony tunes stuff of Boom!

Colorful cartoon hedgehog aside we can make something good out of the universe.

I just wish the writers out there would take us more seriously.

[E-122-Psi]

Satam I think was decent in concept, since it had some sort of balance of dark and whimsy (even if as mentioned the whimsy wasn't always handled great) and a lot of deviations in formula, despite giving it a very different cosmetic to the games, didn't actually betray the common context and tone of the series TOO much. It was still to some degree cartoon action focused primarily on Sonic saving a cartoon animal world from Robotnik's machinery, nothing about giving him a gun or pitting him against a generic sci fi monster or demi god stalking a princess with the Eggman rivalry almost an out of place side addition. I could argue it MIGHT have deviated too far had it went on, what with the original characters like Sally and Naugus' vendetta seeming planned to take over but what was made was tolerable.

I think the problem was it still fell to the recurring failure to be the sum of it's parts and add up to the tone and depth it wanted the audience to feel it had (eg. any hero but Sonic and Sally feeling like a one note extra despite the endless spouting of the Freedom Fighters' unity). Too much suspension of disbelief was required for many plot points (how could anyone like Robotnik keep control for over a decade with the endless mistakes he made and the fact Sonic could so easily bust his lair, and how could Robians like Uncle Chuck be stuck in living death immobile sentience all that time and still be perfectly lucid?) and even with the evenness of drama and comedy, common mood swings were apparent (juvenile Dulcy and Antoine slapstick vs the bleakness of characters robotocized). It also used cliche cheap writing tactics at times, in Sonic Boom any weight of Cat perishing was lost because the heroes somehow knew he was unimportant enough to not really care or grieve for him, or even just make much of an attempt to save him before it was too late.

It was decent as a kids cartoon, but as the 'blockbuster epic' one creator boasted it as being designed to be, it's just plain laughable.

[MadmanRB]

Well yes SatAM had its flaws, all of thew shows do.

But for what its worth I think its the best series that Sonic was in even with it not being called "true Sonic" by some fans.

I do think the writers did have something more epic in mind and most talks with Ben Hurst points to this but they could not go too epic.

Sometimes the scope is too big and is otherwise not achievable.

Its certainly a better effort than what Sega tried to do with Shadow the hedgehog