Why hasn't Knuckles Chaotix been re-released?

[Drunk Michael Myers]

Back when Sonic Gems Collection was about to come out i was wondering, why not release this forgotten gem that i saw in magazines as a kid and once played at a demostation in a gamestore (at that time) 10 years ago? Even more obscure Sonic games like Sonic The Fighters has been released for homeconsoles more than one time. And from what i have seen, heard and read, Chaotix isn't that terrible(if terrible at all) compared to most Game Gear games that's gotten re-released several times. I read that Knuckles Chaotix got released on GameTap in 2007 but it's stay was short lived and that's it. 

So are there any real answears to this? Like SEGA just not caring or simply just that Sonic is missing from the title and game itself for marketing purposes?

And would You like it to get an official console re-release?

[Diogenes]

It wasn't very good, not many people know or care about it, and it was on kind of obscure hardware meaning it would probably take more work to port/emulate it and get them little in return. It's just not any kind of priority for them.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It wasn't very good, not many people know or care about it, and it was on kind of obscure hardware meaning it would probably take more work to port/emulate it and get them little in return. It's just not any kind of priority for them.

This basically make sense, but it's still a bit weird that they wouldn't do it for Knux Chaotix when they've done it for titles like Sonic Blast, Sonic the Fighters, Tails' Skypatrol, etc. Its absence in Sonic Gems Collection is also a little bit confusing because they even include artwork from it in the games' Museum feature, which makes ya wonder if they were originally going to include it or something, especially since it seems like such a natural addition.

As for the emulating thing, plenty of people seem to emulate it perfectly fine on their personal computers, so I don't know why Sega would be unable to do the same thing.

All things considered, it's not super surprising that they wouldn't bother releasing an obscure and not-that-great title, but they've done it for other games, so it kinda makes you wonder.

[pocket]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

It wasn't very good, not many people know or care about it, and it was on kind of obscure hardware meaning it would probably take more work to port/emulate it and get them little in return. 

The same could be said for Sonic R and Sonic the Fighters.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Popular opinions never proven:

Sega doesn't own Mighty: Basically there was a belief that Mighty wasn't fully owned by Sega and that the creator of him refuses to let Sega use him.

The only thing which supports this theory is that it's come to light following the All Star games that Sega doesn't own a lot of their characters and they need approval from the owners... and... some of them are a bit nuts, one or two have completely vanished.

Otherwise. Utterly nothing to support it.

32x to PS2 Era Emulation issues: During the early to mid 2000s Sega were re releasing a lot of games. Biggest hits where Mega collection and Gems collection, but they released a lot, across lots of platforms, even the PS4 got in on it...

And.... there were a lot of problems with a lot of these titles. The emulation wasn't great, from what I recall so called insiders would post on here claiming that emulating Sonic CD was a nightmare and that's why it missed Mega Collection and was on Gems collection with the odd problems it had.

So emulating a 32X game? If they had such issues with the CD titles, might have decided it wasn't worth the effort for a 32X game which has a bit of a niche title.

But other than random insiders who used to post on the forum. Nothing supports it.

 

[JezMM]

4 hours ago, pocket said:

The same could be said for Sonic R and Sonic the Fighters.

Sonic R had a PC version.  In the same vein, the Gems Collection edition of CD is a port of the PC version rather than the Sega CD version (and even then still had  abunch of issues).  Dunno about Sonic the Fighters, but either way, two of the three headlining games were probably somewhat straightforward to port.

Also honestly I hardly ever see people calling these bad games... odd/short maybe, but Chaotix is always incredibly divisive whenever it comes up in conversation.  And divisive is a generous word to use since normally it's like 4 haters to 1 lover to 1 apologiser for the game.

[Mr Loopone]

I was thinking that the game is pretty obscure however plenty of obscure Sonic games have been released with the only ones not included are either unreleased, forgotten (the ride ones) or on a system that Sega or M2 have not yet emulated. Wonder why there aren't any System 32 games despite the popularity of Golden Axe: Revenge of Death Adder or OutRunners nevermind SegaSonic the Hedgehog. The only that I can think of was that Rad Mobile was ported to the Saturn as Gale Racer.

The main reason is that it is on the 32X. To my knowledge, Sega hasn't emulated the addon (neither has the Mega/Sega CD now that I think about it). Sega might not think it is worth emulating considering both the small library and that some games are arcade ports that Sega would rather do the arcade version of (e.g. Space Harrier, After Burner). Weirdly enough some of the arcade games such as Virtua Racing and Star Wars Arcade that haven't received any port or emulation job since. Even then there aren't many that Sega did for the addon. Apart from Chaotix and the arcade ports, all I can think of is Metal Head plus they published Stellar Assault and Cosmic Carnage. The only way that Knuckles Chaotix can be on a system or mobile is if Taxman and co ported it themselves like they did with Sonic CD.

5 hours ago, pocket said:

The same could be said for Sonic R and Sonic the Fighters.

Well Sonic R had a PC port and Sonic the Fighters was on the Model 2 arcade board that Sega themselves done quite a bit of work on as well as M2 for the PS2 version of Sega Rally. Whether it was ports to the Saturn or the recent ports on the PS3/360. It is because there were plenty of games on that arcade board, some that are iconic for the company such as Daytona USA and Virtua Fighter 2 plus that they got some help. There's a rumor that someone who worked on that Model 2 emulator helped Sega.

[Tracker_TD]

Yeah, with Fighters on Gems I could see M2 perhaps stepping in, since Fighting Vipers (same arcade board; hell, same game engine) was also released on PS2 in the SEGA AGES 2500 line, arcade perfect (and with bonus additions). It's notable that the HD version of Fighting Vipers on PSN/XBLA is based on the PS2 version; so I suppose Sonic the Fighters could basically be considered a SEGA AGES 2500 title. If Gems didn't exist, M2 probably would've just released it standalone. 

[Milo]

Honestly if they were to revisit Chaotix for any reason I'd rather see its its game assets/content (zones, powerups, music, artstyle, etc.) recycled for a more traditional Sonic title, rather than a re-release or remake. The rubber-band AI mechanic for co-op purposes probably isn't too bad a concept, but the execution and especially the level design (which barely follows the level design philosophies of any Sonic games from that era) simply does not do it any justice whatsoever. It just becomes a chore to play, which is a shame because virtually everything else outside the actual gameplay I feel could make for a pretty good game.

[Tara]

I recently played Chaotix for the first time, knowing it wasn't good, but I didn't expect it to immediately climb its way to one of my least favorite Sonic games period.  The game is an unintuitive mess that I don't think modern players could enjoy.  Sonic R is frustrating, but it also has a lot more nostalgia attached to it from a larger audience compared to Chaotix, and Sonic the Fighters was a good game for its time and is still fun, despite its flaws.  So I don't think the game has ever been re-released simply because it's a lot more frustrating compared to even some of the more notorious modern titles like Sonic 4.

Emulation issues could also be a problem,  I guess, since it's running on such a convoluted system like the 32X, but I feel that's a more minor point.

[Solister]

Well, it's something like that I was saying in another Sonic Forum, some two weeks ago. During something that I call the "Collections Eras", the period between 2003 - 2009 where games like Sonic Mega Collection Plus, Sonic Gems Collection, Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection and many other SEGA Collections was released. We almost could have all Sonic Games in consoles. Many Classic games was released in Sonic Mega Collection Plus and in Sonic Gems Collection. After that, we only need the Advance era and Dreamcast Games. You can have a GBA and a Nintendo Game Cube with all Sonic Games and Collections, and then you have all games you need in 2005.

In actual days, is very hard to have all these games, but the SEGA Mega Drive Classic Collection on Steam is a good start for that.

But OK, answering your question. I think that Knuckles' Chaotix isn't a bad game, in fact, it's better than so much games that I've played of Sonic. Good or not, I think that SEGA should not hide Knuckles' Chaotix, because I think this only will have grow up the SEGA Genesis Piracy. But I remember that I've read something that SEGA can't make a good emulation of the game.

In fact, other "dead game" is SegaSonic the Hedgehog. We never saw a conversion of the game, but this I know that Yuji Naka said that it's hard to port her spherical control.

[TheOcelot]

7 hours ago, Gabe said:

Honestly if they were to revisit Chaotix for any reason I'd rather see its its game assets/content (zones, powerups, music, artstyle, etc.) recycled for a more traditional Sonic title, rather than a re-release or remake. The rubber-band AI mechanic for co-op purposes probably isn't too bad a concept, but the execution and especially the level design (which barely follows the level design philosophies of any Sonic games from that era) simply does not do it any justice whatsoever. It just becomes a chore to play, which is a shame because virtually everything else outside the actual gameplay I feel could make for a pretty good game.

Chaotix feels like a 32x Proof of Concept "here's what this system can do" rather than a complete polished game.

Taxman seems to like Chaotix. He's of course already added some unused sprites to Mania. Taxman actually put the unused Tails swimming sprite from Chaotix into Sonic CD (or Sonic 1) remastered. Before Mania's announcement I thought it would have been neat if SEGA had said to Taxman; "here's Knuckles Chaotix, go ahead and remake/rework it. Do what you like, make it play like a normal Sonic game and just make sure it's fun".

They actually tried to add Chaotix to the "Sonic Mega Collection". Someone from the community found files of Chaotix in SMC. I also think they considered adding Sonic CD to the Mega Collection, but for whatever reason it ended up in the Gems Collection.

Chaotix is quite the mystery. There's the whole thing about how Sonic & Tails were going to appear. Then they were removed and Espio was created to be the star, only to be moved aside for Knuckles to take center stage. Development must have been a right mess. I find it fascinating how Chaotix evolved from the Mega-Drive Proof of Concept; Sonic Crackers the true Sonic 4. 

The graphics, character animations, music are nice and I love the hexagonal-cube special stages. It's such a shame the gameplay and level design is a large mess. The re-use of stage design is really bad. It all blends, none of the level design stands out or is particularly memorable like the other classics. The gameplay is too much of stop-start stop-start. The story is kind of meh. You can't get an extra life, there's a ring-cap of 255 and when you die or finish a stage you always go back to Newtrogic High zone! There's over 30 stages. It's longer than 3&K which is crazy.

In all honesty I can't see it being re-released. There's just not enough demand. It's easy enough to emulate using (Kega) Fusion.

 

 

[Drunk Michael Myers]

2 hours ago, BenderMania said:

There's the whole thing about how Sonic & Tails were going to appear. Then they were removed and Espio was created to be the star, only to be moved aside for Knuckles to take center stage. Development must have been a right mess. I find it fascinating how Chaotix evolved from the Mega-Drive Proof of Concept; Sonic Crackers the true Sonic 4. 

 

 

Would love to know more about this. At least with games today we always here why the games come out trash and what went wrong. Would be really fun if someone with more knowledge about Chaotix's developement came forward or if people got hold on the people behind it to get some answears.

[Your Vest Friend]

Well, there was confirmed disruption during its development; the Sonic Team part of SEGA Enterprises were pulled off the game partway through to work on NiGHTS. If only the less experienced non-Sonic Team SEGA Enterprises was left over...well, you can see where this is going. 

[big_smile]

15 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Well, there was confirmed disruption during its development; the Sonic Team part of SEGA Enterprises were pulled off the game partway through to work on NiGHTS. If only the less experienced non-Sonic Team SEGA Enterprises was left over...well, you can see where this is going. 

When was that confirmed? I'd love to know more about this. Thanks!

[Your Vest Friend]

Well, there was confirmed disruption during its development; the Sonic Team part of SEGA Enterprises were pulled off the game partway through to work on NiGHTS. If only the less experienced non-Sonic Team SEGA Enterprises was left over...well, you can see where this is going. 

When was that confirmed? I'd love to know more about this. Thanks!

Hoshino stated it in the interview done for Mega Drive/Genesis: Collected Works. That book is really a treasure for those interested in MD-era development history.

[big_smile]

52 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Hoshino stated it in the interview done for Mega Drive/Genesis: Collected Works. That book is really a treasure for those interested in MD-era development history.

Oh wow! Iizuka always said Sonic Team had nothing to with Chaotix, so it's interesting to hear otherwise. 

I'll have to check it out. I wish they had a digital copy for sale. 

Thanks!

[Your Vest Friend]

Well, he's right in the sense that Sonic Team as a whole didn't make the game. This was back when it was split between STI in America and SEGA Enterprises in Japan. I think Sonic CD might have had a few more Sonic Team persons in the game making part on top of that, possibly? Either way, Hoshino and Ohshima at the very least were involved. 

[WakanoBaka]

Wait, I thought it hasn't been re-released because Iizuka didn't like the game, hence why he wanted to opted it outta the canon by claiming the Chaotix were RE-IMAGINED for Heroes. But him not being the head of Sonic Team at the time, he had no power to do so, so it was his simple head canon.

[Your Vest Friend]

4 hours ago, WakanoBaka said:

Wait, I thought it hasn't been re-released because Iizuka didn't like the game, hence why he wanted to opted it outta the canon by claiming the Chaotix were RE-IMAGINED for Heroes. But him not being the head of Sonic Team at the time, he had no power to do so, so it was his simple head canon.

Not really. By the sounds of it, he's pretty chill with the game. He even expressed that he wanted to make a game like Chaotix back in 2010...but while people assumed that meant like sequel, it sounds more like spiritual successor to me, and you can argue that Sonic 4: Episode 2 was what filled that hole. Then again, Sonic Advance 3 and Sonic Heroes can be put on the table as spiritual successors as well. 

No, the problem is that Chaotix was really all over the place in terms of Sonic Team's contributions to it. Since they weren't going to reference non-Sonic Team games ever again, Chaotix would have been on that scrap pile. But, unlike pretty much literally every other game in that pile (bar Sonic R), there were some assets that were potentially salvageable (those being who we now know as the current Chaotix), so what appears to have happened is that they went and based their eventual forms on the original concepts for them and not Chaotix, where the personalities given for them were entirely ignored. So Chaotix not being canon can be traced to Adventure at the latest (although my recent random research thing pins it to August 1996). 

[KHCast]

Well didn't they reference/remix some of the music as well? That's another thing they salvaged. 

[Your Vest Friend]

True, although even Spinball got in on that goodness so music seems to be an entirely different area itself.

 

[Darth InVaders]

I don't know why and don't trust rumors about why they haven't, but the bottom line is I really wish Sega would rerelease Chaotix

[Hyp3hat]

It could be because it's not very good, and its forgotten status means that it's not worth nailing 32X emulation in the same way that it's worth doing it for Sonic CD. Knuckles Chaotix has sort of been forgotten for a host of good reasons.

• The Special Stages are Bubsy 3D levels of ugliness, and stupidly easy to boot.
• The stages aren't challenging, rather the control scheme is. The central mechanic makes performing simple platforming an essentially random exercise. 
• Lots of weird design decisions abound - why is your partner random? Why must levels be played in a random order? Why are the items stupid (The tiny 'powerup' is just there to stop you for 30 seconds, the giant one makes levels that are already easy a joke, etc)? Why are there two tutorial levels? Why can you get minus rings?
• Hardly a lost set of Sonic jams on the soundtrack, Door Into Summer excepted.
• It looks really fucking terrible. Sprites are nice, levels look garish and weird. 

IDK, I just played it for an hour last night and was fairly confident I never want to do so ever again. 

[WakanoBaka]

I disagree, it is a very good game, many fans hail this game as Sonic CD's spiritual successor. And they have a right to do so mainly cause almost all of the people from Sonic CD's team was involved.

 

It isn't the best damn Sonic game, but it surely isn't "not very good "