According to Sega's Twitter, they don't hold the rights to SatAM

[PSI Wind]

Well, I think its a homage from Bioware.

Edited August 11, 2009 by PSI Wind FTW!

[Blazey Firekitty]

There will be influences... no characters tho - and NO Spinball doesn't count.

Are you saying the chili dog is not a character?

But yeah, I suppose SatAM characters probably aren't that popular in Japan.

[Future]

Sega owns the rights of the characters so they could put the characters in a Sonic game. It just couldn't be the same plot as the cartoon since they don't own the cartoon.

[PSI Wind]

^ Um, no. AAUK is a SEGA worker and he just said they don't own the characters. They only licence the Archie Comics because they use Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, or all VG characters.

[nuckles87]

Ah good, someone from SEGA.

AHEM.

No SEGA don't own the video rights to SATAM, SATAM isn't part of Sonic canon and the characters won't be featuring in the games any time soon. The best you're likely to get is an in-reference perhaps.

Nice to see you read my tweets tho.

So where do the Archie comics fit into all this then? According to the creators, everything in the book is owned by SEGA, and that includes most every character that's been featured in SatAm, bar a handful of minor characters.

In fact, I've just looked on the back of my SatAm DVD, and it says "Sonic and all related characters and indicia are trademarks of SEGA". You can find similar copy right information in the Archie comics, with no mention of DiC or any other third parties. "All characters are trademarks of SEGA".

You sure this isn't something only relegated to SEGA Europe, AAUK?

[AAUK]

Okay lets go through this again

- As I said SEGA do not own the video rights to SATAM. That means SEGA cannot choose one day to print new DVDs or BlueRays or wtv, this is exactly the same for Underground and AoSTH. The person who owns the video distribution right can though as they bought them off the creators and/or SEGA.

- Yes I know what SATAM is. For Tikal's sake, I own the boxset. >_>

- I do not know the ins and outs of the licencing agreement with Archie - I'm not a lawyer. However I think its a case of they can use the characters in certain ways, any original content Archie create whilst using them SEGA can lay claim to hence SEGA 'owns' those characters. SEGA owns Sonic and the Sonic universe - no matter what that universe may contain.

- Why would Sonic Team change the entire canon of their game series to swap it out with one never used solidly in the games before that will only be familiar to those who read the comics or may have watched the TV series which will not be the majority of those that buy the games? Even if they did they'd have to reset EVERYTHING as you couldn't expect anyone to know everything thats happened in that universe since it began.

Does that help at all?

[Future]

^ Um, no. AAUK is a SEGA worker and he just said they don't own the characters. They only licence the Archie Comics because they use Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, or all VG characters.

You need to read better. AAUK did not say that SEGA didn't own the characters. If you would of read all the posts you would know they still own the characters...

[Greg the Fancat]

AHEM.

No SEGA don't own the video rights to SATAM, SATAM isn't part of Sonic canon and the characters won't be featuring in the games any time soon. The best you're likely to get is an in-reference perhaps.

Nice to see you read my tweets tho.

Oh really?

http://img198.imageshack.us/i/sally3.jpg/

http://img39.imageshack.us/i/sally1a.jpg/

http://img198.imageshack.us/i/sally2q.jpg/

Official picture from SEGA World amusement Park in Sydney, Australia. Photo was taken in 1996. SEGA of Japan DID endorse this.

So..... Hey, you know.... AAUK, you're from Europe being in the UK. Here is a statue from Europe from 1991.

Were you aware of this?

So.... Yes, SEGA owns the cast of the Freedom Fighters.

Edited August 16, 2009 by GREG THE CAT

[Miko]

Why would Sonic Team change the entire canon of their game series to swap it out with one never used solidly in the games before that will only be familiar to those who read the comics or may have watched the TV series which will not be the majority of those that buy the games? Even if they did they'd have to reset EVERYTHING as you couldn't expect anyone to know everything thats happened in that universe since it began.

Teeechnically, the mythos SatAM worked with was what people understood to be Sonic in the west prior to 1999.

and NO Spinball doesn't count.

y not?

[Candescence]

Teeechnically, the mythos SatAM worked with was what people understood to be Sonic in the west prior to 1999.

Doesn't count, Sega threw all that out when Sonic Adventure came about, EXCEPT for Eggman having the Robotnik surname, but that's about it.

y not?

To my knowledge, it was a spin-off that had absolutely no involvement from Sonic Team and was rather strange in some parts (such as Robotnik being larger than most portrayals of Bowser, for one), and you'd be pretty high to actually include it in any sort of discussions on continuity.

[Carbo]

To my knowledge, it was a spin-off that had absolutely no involvement from Sonic Team and was rather strange in some parts (such as Robotnik being larger than most portrayals of Bowser, for one), and you'd be pretty high to actually include it in any sort of discussions on continuity.

Correct me if I'm wrong here cause I haven't read the comics in a while but wasn't that game essentially treated as an Archie Sonic canon the same way as Bean Machine was treated as a spin-off based off of AoSTH? The comic even made a chronologically fit issue of the Spinball game (not special issue) which served as a prequel for it with the game playing out the full story of it itself.

[Miko]

To my knowledge, it was a spin-off

Well... Shadow was a Spinoff, Crisis core for FFVII was a spinoff too as was Dirge of Cerberus. That doesn't mean it is totally irrelevant.

and was rather strange in some parts (such as Robotnik being larger than most portrayals of Bowser, for one),

Eggman/Robotnik/whatever was larger in the final level but that was artistic effect as all the bosses were big. If you see him in bonus stages are falling from Mt. Mobius at the end of the game he's not nearly that size. That and if you look at Eggman's design in today's games I could argue the same thing.

had absolutely no involvement from Sonic Team

Sonic Team aren't the only ones who had a hand in making main titles. STI (who made Spinball) had a principal role in the development of Sonic 2.

and you'd be pretty high to actually include it in any sort of discussions on continuity.

lol y?

wasn't that game essentially treated as an Archie Sonic canon

It took elements from Archie and SatAM but that doesn't inherently mean it's not game canon. That's like arguing Amy's not canon to the games because she was an element from a manga prior to her appearance.

[batson]

I dont think the people behind Spinball themselves knew what specific version of the Sonic universe the game was supposed to take place in. To them it was probably simply the "Sonic the Hedgehog" universe, with game characters, AoStH characters and SatAM characters all existing side by side in it. And honestly, how many of us fans actually made a big deal about keeping the continuities apart back then? I know i didn't.

[KittyNakajima]

How did this topic degenerate into a misinformed status quo about whom owns the rights to the characters of SatAM? Maybe not on here, but I know on SATam specific boards such as Saturday Morning Sonic there seems to be a collective sense of BAWW going around about AAUK's statement, to the point where some are screaming/wanting to call up the current owners of the rights to get the record straight. I don't really get that, since I thought the message on SEGA'S twitter made it crystal clear that they don't own the syndication/distribution rights to the original show. As in, they can't make new DVDs and/or possibly show the show on television without some form of consent/permission from the current owners, which are/ is in fact Cookie Jar, who bought the rights to SATam as well as a majority of DiC Entertainment's catalog last year.

I don't get how folks are confusing that with a mantra of 'OMFG SEGA DOESN'T OWN THE FREEDOM FIGHTERS!!!' Of course they still own those - why else would we still have a sorry excuse for a comic series lying around for nearly 15 years? If they didn't own the rights to any of those characters I'm fairly certain the comic would either have been canceled to avoid legal issues or geared in a direction that was heavily driven with a focus on game exclusive characters only.

Secondly, to address those various pictures of Sally as a mascot at SEGAWorld/ other SEGA owned venues, that was alright for the time as SEGA had apparently attempted to promote SATam among other things as the current status quo in much of the English speaking/Western world given that each section of SEGA had made their own mythos for Sonic as opposed to having a single united front about it. Key words being alright for the time as the games are currently the official status quo around much of the world as opposed to SATam. Keeping in mind financial costs of running amusement parks, specialized merchandising as well as SEGA's gradual shift from the home entertainment console market to their current mainstay as an arcade machine/third party developer, it probably didn't make much sense to continue on with at least two separate, largely different mythos to a key franchise. Why should they have continued on with promoting what was essentially only a cartoon comprised of maybe 22+ episodes as the current status quo above anything else they've created at that point, such as AoSth, Sonic Underground, Fleetway, Sonic OVA, etc? They had plenty to choose from but decided to scrap them all the simplify and start from scratch with Sonic Adventure and move on and expand upon what we currently understand as the current and official canon of the games.

So with all that said, yes. They still own the characters. They just don't promote/use them as much aside from the ongoing telenovella they feature in the Archie Comics.

But hey - if some of you want to BAWW a bit more about rights, owners, and canon over a long dead animated series, be my guest.

Edited August 16, 2009 by KittyNakajima

[Carbo]

It took elements from Archie and SatAM but that doesn't inherently mean it's not game canon. That's like arguing Amy's not canon to the games because she was an element from a manga prior to her appearance.

No not really seeing how Amy is actually in all Sonic games as of now and the line-up of characters that happened to appear in Spinball are from the Archie/SatAM cast. There's a difference in that since its the only game to date they've been in, if you read my post more what I said was that the game was an Archie canon story since nothing of Spinball has ever held any relevance to the current universe apart from Archie. There was even the comic in Archie during or before Spinball's release that served as a full-fledged prologue while the game was the present story for it, and see the point where I also did a drawback for AoSTH and Mean Bean Machine since its the only game where Scratch, Grounder and Coconuts appeared as their AoSTH appearances, as well as Robotnik. Wikipedia even lists Mean Bean Machine as the game being set in the Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog universe.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Ego

[Miko]

No not really seeing how Amy is actually in all Sonic games as of now and the line-up of characters that happened to appear in Spinball are from the Archie/SatAM cast.

Its not as if one-time characters are unheard of in the Sonic games, and secondly even if Amy is in all Sonic games nowadays it doesn't change the fact she was a comic character first. And no, I didn't get it purely from wikipedia, I actually read it. You may still be able to find some info on GHZ about it. It was published in what 1992 by Shogakukan (sp)?

There's a difference in that since its the only game to date they've been in, if you read my post more what I said was that the game was an Archie canon story since nothing of Spinball has ever held any relevance to the current universe apart from Archie.

it was relevant to the games and the storyline behind it was modified to please both shores. Mobius is a different planet in Japan, and in America it was Sonic's homeworld where the veg-O-machine was out causing problems.

There was even the comic in Archie during or before Spinball's release that served as a full-fledged prologue while the game was the present story for it,

Archie does promotions like that all the time, they still do them today. If you actually read it though btw, the way it ends is very different from spinball.

Wikipedia even lists Mean Bean Machine as the game being set in the Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog universe.

You'll need a better source than that.

[Carbo]

Its not as if one-time characters are unheard of in the Sonic games, and secondly even if Amy is in all Sonic games nowadays it doesn't change the fact she was a comic character first. And no, I didn't get it purely from wikipedia, I actually read it. You may still be able to find some info on GHZ about it. It was published in what 1992 by Shogakukan (sp)? (1)

it was relevant to the games and the storyline behind it was modified to please both shores. Mobius is a different planet in Japan, and in America it was Sonic's homeworld where the veg-O-machine was out causing problems. (2)

Archie does promotions like that all the time, they still do them today. If you actually read it though btw, the way it ends is very different from spinball. (3)

You'll need a better source than that. (4)

(1) That there barely makes any sense. I know Amy was adapted from a comic but she actually stayed and was significant to the plot where as the SatAM/Archie cast only ever had brief appearances. Spinball alone makes more sense of being one with the Archie storyline itself. You're telling me what I know, your comparison in the first place didnt make any sense either.

(2) And that has what to do with what I said exactly?

(3) While Archie did make one issue loosely based on Sonic 3, it was only ever about Sonic meeting Knuckles really. Spinball was more in depth, and to this point I still call it set in the SatAM or Archie universe.

(4) Way to slip yourself out from that one, it really doesnt take a genious to figure it out yourself, does it? Neither Sega or Sonic Team developed either titles either way so if it satisfies you, its clear that they could have taken the inspiration from the shows. Sega's only responsible for the marketing and publishment.

Majority of what you've been trying to post feels like you're disguising yourself as a fact book but half of it feels irrelevant.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Ego

[Greg the Fancat]

I don't get how folks are confusing that with a mantra of 'OMFG SEGA DOESN'T OWN THE FREEDOM FIGHTERS!!!' Of course they still own those - why else would we still have a sorry excuse for a comic series lying around for nearly 15 years? If they didn't own the rights to any of those characters I'm fairly certain the comic would either have been canceled to avoid legal issues or geared in a direction that was heavily driven with a focus on game exclusive characters only.

Secondly, to address those various pictures of Sally as a mascot at SEGAWorld/ other SEGA owned venues, that was alright for the time as SEGA had apparently attempted to promote SATam among other things as the current status quo in much of the English speaking/Western world given that each section of SEGA had made their own mythos for Sonic as opposed to having a single united front about it. Key words being alright for the time as the games are currently the official status quo around much of the world as opposed to SATam. Keeping in mind financial costs of running amusement parks, specialized merchandising as well as SEGA's gradual shift from the home entertainment console market to their current mainstay as an arcade machine/third party developer, it probably didn't make much sense to continue on with at least two separate, largely different mythos to a key franchise. Why should they have continued on with promoting what was essentially only a cartoon comprised of maybe 22+ episodes as the current status quo above anything else they've created at that point, such as AoSth, Sonic Underground, Fleetway, Sonic OVA, etc? They had plenty to choose from but decided to scrap them all the simplify and start from scratch with Sonic Adventure and move on and expand upon what we currently understand as the current and official canon of the games.

But hey - if some of you want to BAWW a bit more about rights, owners, and canon over a long dead animated series, be my guest.

Now, I don't care if it's your opinion or not, but to hear 'sorry excuse for a comic' upset me. For an Archie, if anything, the Sonic comic series has had a more stable and consistent plot than that of the recent games. Plus, it does truly new things with enemies that actually matter instead of world guzzling beasts. If anything, SEGA's reinventing of Sonic for our next game should be forgotten and replaced instead with a more Sonic comic like game. I mean, and you can't tell me that you would rather hear Sonic point out the obvious than saying awesome one liners and talking about how lame some of Robotnik's plans are.

Hey, does anyone remember that they actually had BIGGER plans for Sally? Sonic Mars anyone? How's that for throw out the old and bring in the new? So, really besides your lame 'right at the time' excuse how's about I see something better like why they never used her in the games. Then again, the answer is obvious and SEGA thinks that SatAM and the comics are a stain on its reputation. After all, it's not like those are beloved characters now. Oh no, we would prefer Elise to Sally any day wouldn't we? So in all honesty, they were going to be part of the games and then SEGA flipped us cartoon and comic fans the bird and pulled the plug on what could've been a good thing. Plus, their killiong off of Nack as soon as Xtreme was cancelled added to the failure. And to think.... Sonic Unleashed could've brought Fang back. How? Werehog vs the Monster Hunter. Big bounty on Sonic's head. Cha-Ching. But now they want to dumb things down for the kiddies. And their method of doing so is stupid. Instead of making it enjoyable for all ages, they only market and program for the kiddies now.

Rights I will not waste my time with since I know the truth that I know now, but as for the game canon I have plenty of gripes why SEGA has forgotten what Sonic is, and as a side note on why they haven't been using comic references to please others in the fanbase who like the shows and comics. I mean, change is that much of a good thing? Throwing out the old for the new is great?

Question for AAUK: Now.... I'm interested. You apparently think that the SwatBot is only a reference.

But in what way is it not a character? It's not just an element but a Robotnik machine and it came from SatAM. Who's to say that SEGA can't use their own licensed characters, the Freedom Fighters, in a game anytime soon? Who's to say Bioware won't use them in the Chronicles sequel? Is SEGA really wanting to shovel more dirt on this? Are they really that ashamed of their past or SEGA World for that matter? Had Amy actually been more popular with the fanbase, we know that there would've been a statue of her instead of Sally. So.... What is going on at SEGA, AAUK?

Edited August 16, 2009 by GREG THE CAT

[Miko]

Could you directly quote instead of doing the number thing, it's hard to respond XP

(1) That there barely makes any sense. I know Amy was adapted from a comic but she actually stayed and was significant to the plot where as the SatAM/Archie cast only ever had brief appearances.

Saying the FFs had nothing to do with the story in Spinball is like saying Peach had nothing to do with Mario because anytime she made an appearance it was brief. Back then Sonic's only objective was to rescue and defeat Eggman. So they played a hefty role in Sonic acheiving his overall objective. That and, making a breif appearance doesn't suddenly make something not canon.

(2) And that has what to do with what I said exactly?

It was a one-shot game. Just because they don't have any additional allusions to it doesn't mean its not canon to the games (most especially the classic ones).

(3) While Archie did make one issue loosely based on Sonic 3, it was only ever about Sonic meeting Knuckles really.

Sonic met Knux, Knux was tricked by Robotnik thinking Sonic was the enemy, Sonic and Knuckles fought and joined forces and stopped Robotnik. The story's progression was much more accurate to what happened in the game than in spinball where Sonic busted in the fortress and was quickly booted out, failing to stop Robotnik's pinball fortress and save everyone.

Spinball was more in depth, and to this point I still call it set in the SatAM or Archie universe.

Spinball was an example of the verses having an effect on the games and vice versa like the manga did. There was no central storyline, as up until 1999 they shared a give and take relationship where they took inspiration from one another. Spinball was adapted that verse to fit both east and west storylines. So saying it's only fitting SatAM's story is faulty. Because SatAM Sonic for example didn't travel to another planet to fight Eggman like he does in say the JP version. Not only that but in Spinball there are FFs that never existed in in SatAM or in Archie.

(4) Way to slip yourself out from that one, it really doesnt take a genious to figure it out yourself, does it? Neither Sega or Sonic Team developed either titles either way so if it satisfies you, its clear that they could have taken the inspiration from the shows. Sega's only responsible for the marketing and publishment.

STI was part of SEGA. Sonic Team may not have developed the titles but then again, Sonic Team weren't the only ones involved in the development of major titles. STI as I said before played a principal role in the development of Sonic 2 for instance.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Miko

[KittyNakajima]

Now, I don't care if it's your opinion or not, but to hear 'sorry excuse for a comic' upset me. For an Archie, if anything, the Sonic comic series has had a more stable and consistent plot than that of the recent games. Plus, it does truly new things with enemies that actually matter instead of world guzzling beasts. If anything, SEGA's reinventing of Sonic for our next game should be forgotten and replaced instead with a more Sonic comic like game. I mean, and you can't tell me that you would rather hear Sonic point out the obvious than saying awesome one liners and talking about how lame some of Robotnik's plans are.

(B)AWW, did I hurt your feelings? Would it have been better if I said that I believe that some of the writing was weak, or that the current writer can't write his way out of a damp paper bag if his life depended on it?

And no - I for one rather not deal with a Sonic shooting wise cracks every second to show off their 'tude, as a lot of it sounds like he's trying too hard. Surfer lingo like "way past cool", "do it to it", etc. sound as if he's overcompensating for a lack of confidence/self esteem as I see it. Plus actions speak a hell of a lot louder than some cheesy catchphrase.

Hey, does anyone remember that they actually had BIGGER plans for Sally? Sonic Mars anyone? How's that for throw out the old and bring in the new? So, really besides your lame 'right at the time' excuse how's about I see something better like why they never used her in the games. Then again, the answer is obvious and SEGA thinks that SatAM and the comics are a stain on its reputation. After all, it's not like those are beloved characters now. Oh no, we would prefer Elise to Sally any day wouldn't we? So in all honesty, they were going to be part of the games and then SEGA flipped us cartoon and comic fans the bird and pulled the plug on what could've been a good thing. Plus, their killiong off of Nack as soon as Xtreme was cancelled added to the failure. And to think.... Sonic Unleashed could've brought Fang back. How? Werehog vs the Monster Hunter. Big bounty on Sonic's head. Cha-Ching. But now they want to dumb things down for the kiddies. And their method of doing so is stupid. Instead of making it enjoyable for all ages, they only market and program for the kiddies now.

Rights I will not waste my time with since I know the truth that I know now, but as for the game canon I have plenty of gripes why SEGA has forgotten what Sonic is, and as a side note on why they haven't been using comic references to please others in the fanbase who like the shows and comics. I mean, change is that much of a good thing? Throwing out the old for the new is great?

Question for AAUK: Now.... I'm interested. You apparently think that the SwatBot is only a reference.

But in what way is it not a character? It's not just an element but a Robotnik machine and it came from SatAM. Who's to say that SEGA can't use their own licensed characters, the Freedom Fighters, in a game anytime soon? Who's to say Bioware won't use them in the Chronicles sequel? Is SEGA really wanting to shovel more dirt on this? Are they really that ashamed of their past or SEGA World for that matter? Had Amy actually been more popular with the fanbase, we know that there would've been a statue of her instead of Sally. So.... What is going on at SEGA, AAUK?

SEGA tried to market/promote SATam and Sally, then ditched the idea for the most part to change direction and focus. No one's disputing that, so what the hell is there to argue about here? SEGA still owns the rights, and it's their perrogative as to whether they choose to further endorse said characters. I swear it sounds as if some of you think they've ignored them altogether despite their monthly appearance within the aforementioned wet paper bag.

Also, though I probably shouldn't be speaking for him myself as I can't read his mind, I think what AAUK meant by "reference" needs the following term to clarify: homage. He's free to correct me at any time, but a homage as I understand it is something that pays tribute to a pre-existing body of work(s). Sonic Chronicles had several in game references to not only several games in the Sonic canon but also to a few other things such as Star Wars (i.e. the Kron's peculiar speech being akin to Yoda). I won't get into how they went about putting the reference in since I believe I read they skimmed through various different forms of Sonic media, but the SWAT Bots would simply be paying tribute to SATam's version and nothing more. They're not saying SATam is apart of the actual story, but they're just giving the fans in general a nod to it as a reference/homage, and nothing more.

And I suppose that's that. If you've read that much into what was supposed to be just a nice little nod to the fanbase then I suppose you need to get outside and take in some fresh air.

Edited August 17, 2009 by KittyNakajima

[AAUK]

Yes, I meant homage - thank you Kitty.

End of the day SEGA are not going to tear up their game formats just so you can have Sally Acorn in a game Greg, its not going to change and thats me out of this topic. By all means keep complaining you cannot have your way.

[Miko]

Eh. They 'tore up their game formats' to put Amy in a game when she was originally a comic book character.

...still don't wanna see Sally in a gam though. Just sayin'.

[Flyboy Fox]

I'll still hold out hope for a SatAM-based spin-off someday :3 Weirder things have happened.

[Genesis]

Eh. They 'tore up their game formats' to put Amy in a game when she was originally a comic book character.

They didn't change the games format for Amy. More like they changed Amy (from Sonic CD) from her manga self, so she can fit into the games the way they wanted. On a side note, I find it interesting modern Amy has more in common with her manga self than Amy's original 8 year old character. Guess thats another topic for another day.

On topic

I don't know why someone people are in shock about this news, The whole thing seemed obvious to me. I mean Sega hasn't marketed anything SatAm related in years. Unless anyone counts the comics.....?

[nuckles87]

- I do not know the ins and outs of the licencing agreement with Archie - I'm not a lawyer. However I think its a case of they can use the characters in certain ways, any original content Archie create whilst using them SEGA can lay claim to hence SEGA 'owns' those characters. SEGA owns Sonic and the Sonic universe - no matter what that universe may contain.

Hope I'm not about to say anything wrong here.

Well, the creators over at Archie have said repeatedly that anything published in the Archie comics are automatically under the ownership of SEGA; by extension, the Archie iterations of the SatAm characters. They've been pretty clear regarding this fact over at the creator's forum, Bumbleking.com.

I think I understand now, though. Thanks for the clarification.

If people take enough issue with my conjecture, I could PM Ian Flynn for some further clarification. But as far as they've said, SEGA still owns the Freedom Fighters. The Archie versions anyway. He discontinued his Ask Ian topics due to his new job eating up all his time, so it'd probably take awhile to get a response. This seems worth a news post on the front page. Never thought SEGA could not have the rights for something involving their character.