The Last of Us Part 2 - Releasing June 19th - GAME LEAKED - BE WARNED OF SPOILERS

[Wraith]

If the story about this leak coming from a disgruntled employee is true this is one of the most effective ways to actually disrupt the chain of command from the ground level. They've effectively forced Sony's hand in getting the game out sooner with this leak and might have even lost them a few sales. I can't see many other ways to have that kind of effect as a cog in the machine.

You can't just decide that people shouldn't protest the second their methods might inconvenience you specifically. 

[Jango]

You're not wrong, but it's a short term "solution" at best. You won't end any cycle by throwing everything into the fire like that. 

[Wraith]

It's a start, and it's not a "cycle". Naughty Dog has been stepping on their teams for years if insider reports and their high turnover rate are any indication. It's karma.

[KHCast]

@Jango So then what’s your alternative solution? Cause I doubt he could have just walked up to the CEO and had a chat about the working conditions over coffee, and get that settled after a few days. 
And it’s not like developers will be unionizing anytime soon 

 

Also in regards to you’re other comment at me, about how this isn’t a “simple black and white situation” mmmm yeah I’m pretty sure in this case, it’s pretty simple. One of these is clearly worse than the other. And it’s not the (possibly) disgruntled employee that felt provoked into doing this to get back at a company allegedly treating their staff pretty poorly, as there wasn’t any viable alternative that they could do from the ground that would get the higher ups to care. (As @Wraith pointed out) Doesn’t mean I’m saying it was totally fine and dandy, clearly there’s legal consequences and they’re putting themselves in jeopardy of getting blacklisted, but having worked under mega corporations myself, I actually understand how feeble actually getting big wigs to act and make changes that benefit staff when you’re not unionized is. If anything, I should be the one saying the “black and white” line to you.
 

At least, if again the rumors are true, the employee has a reason for what they did. What understandable relatable reason is there for Naughty Dog to do what they’ve been accused of? Where’s the nuance regarding a corporation enforcing crunch periods?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Jango said:

Doesn't matter who "started it", we're not anyone's mother. Both sides faulted, but what the former employee did was as wrong, if not more, because we know he acted for revenge. He could've left on top of this whole situation if he were smart, but with his actions, he's lost all credibility.

I know from our Activision discussions that you tend to side with the company on stuff like this, but no. It's not really a simple matter of just petty revenge. This is effectively the culmination of unbelievably terrible working conditions being forced on employees and one of them feeling desperate to get Sony off their high horse for once. It's not just petty revenge as you claim it to be.

Sony and Naughty Dog could've,  y'know not treated an entire work force like crap and then arbitrarily delayed a game, making all that crunch happen for nothing. Two wrongs do not make a right, but we are not going to pretend that the effect outweighs the cause between the two in this case.

[Teoskaven]

1 hour ago, Jango said:

Doesn't matter who "started it", we're not anyone's mother. Both sides faulted, but what the former employee did was as wrong, if not more, because we know he acted for revenge. He could've left on top of this whole situation if he were smart, but with his actions, he's lost all credibility.

It's in cases like this that this quote from Linkara is needed:

Quote

"Disregard anything your parents ever said about "not mattering who started it". If that was true, no one would be allowed to defend themselves or others."

The idea that, if the only solution to get out of a bad situation is to do something potentially bad then it's best to just sit down and take it, is ludicrous to me. This was an actual case of corporate slavery, no less than that. I'm not calling this mr. X an hero, but i'm not gonna put it on a worse level than its actual abusive superiors, nor equal for that matter. Could have there be a better way? Most likely, but pressure and abuse give people enough stress to commit stuff they normally wouldn't do.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I'm not gonna call the employee in question a hero, nor am I going to pretend what he did was "right". But what Naughty Dog did with the crunch periods, and then Sony's added bullshit by delaying the game, effectively making all of that agonising crunch time into meaningless, wasted time and effort was absolutely awful. 

Not subjective, not shades of gray. no. Pushing your employees to the absolute brink of physical and emotional stress is not just some "oh it's not as bad as leaking a game!!". 

At worst, Sony/ND have lost a few sales with this employee's action, and at best, this employee got us the game long before we were going to with Sony's bullshit. In comparison, Naughty Dog's crunch periods was actively damaging people. That is fifty times worse than having spoilers floating around the internet, and even entertaining such a notion is disingenuous at best, and downright delusional at worst. Naughty Dog are the party who have done the objectively worst action out of the parties in this mess who have done bad things. 

Like, you are not understanding the situation if you actively choose to pretend Naughty Dog are somehow on the moral high ground out of the parties in this situation. You are a developer at Naughty Dog, you've been forced into periods of insane developmental crunch time, causing insanely high emotional and mental pain and stress. You finally overcome it all and finish the game and...

...Oh, look at that, Sony are delaying the game you spent the last four months in hell making, because they can't do the same thing every other developer/publisher is doing and taking necessary steps for a game launch. During the same period where Animal Crossing New Horizons became one of the highest selling Switch games, and Final Fantasy 7 Remake became one of the highest selling titles in the franchise, Sony, one of the biggest gaming publishers on the face of the planet couldn't figure out a way to get the game out?

Yeah, something tells me you'd be just more than a little miffed.

[Wraith]

Leaker confirmed to have no affiliation with SONY or NAUGHTY DOG. 

 

I speculated a few days ago this was the case but journalists started to talk like the leak came from internal sources.

 

Quote

Sony has confirmed to GamesIndustry.biz that it has identified the primary individuals responsible for the leaks earlier this week, saying they were not affiliated with Sony Interactive Entertainment or Naughty Dog, as was rumored.

The publisher declined to comment further, saying that the information was currently subject to an ongoing investigation.

 

[Tornado]

On 4/28/2020 at 8:29 AM, Jango said:

You're not wrong, but it's a short term "solution" at best. You won't end any cycle by throwing everything into the fire like that. 

Naughty Dog (and Sony, even moreso than they were when they functionally cancelled the game's release) has been a pariah since the leak happened. Yeah, you have assholes on Era trying to dismiss everything as "they just don't like it because TLoU2 is too woke for them" because Naughty Dog is one of their sacred cows exempt from criticisms that they'd give other developers; but there's been an awful lot of shit coming out about the company that Sony was probably perfectly happy to pretend never existed in the face of the good Metacritic scores and sales, even before the game was delayed. If even half the stuff that's been popping up again in the past week about Uncharted 4's development is true, Sony's incompetence (or worse, deliberate refusal) on getting TLoU2 a release date leading to this boilover (regardless of its source) may very well be the catalyst to get some heads to roll.

 

 

Besides, the game is still nearly two months away since Sony has insisted on delaying the game anyway seemingly just so they can look less foolish for the initial delay, and this discussion about the working conditions for this and prior games Naughty Dog made isn't going to go anywhere in the meantime; nor are the reactions to the leaked elements and how they may support the allegations from the Uncharted 4 development that were quietly buried since.

[KHCast]

I said this on twitter and I’ll post it here, since I’m seeing people online go “oh people definitely owe Sony/ND an apology now”

 

There was always the chance this wasn’t a inside job, but regardless the effect of this I’d say does more good than harm for staff, who were already getting fucked over because of the delay 

[Tornado]

Yeah, Kotaku implied that in their coverage of it this morning and I thought it was especially amusing considering they wrote an article about Naughty Dog's crunch problem a couple months ago.

Plus Sony insists that they never ever had anything to do with Sony or Naughty Dog in any way...

 

 

But they apparently got access to a developer build of an almost finished game.

[KHCast]

So they’ll post this and put EA on blast about how wrong this was, and revel in EA clamoring to make a rebuttal and how this article stoked people’s anger at them 

https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964/amp

but then in similar situations with regards to Sony/ND, will imply people should feel bad, and infers that they (the massive AAA company) were the victims unjustly pilloried despite employees having come out about those bad working conditions? Lol

 

Also yeah that’s sketch, especially since they don’t really explain to us how they know that. They say they have “suspects” but that’s still incredibly vague. More industry cloak and dagger. 

[Jango]

What is weird is how said person had access to the build... it does sounds fishy. Before the rumous started spreading I thought it could've been a play tester or localization professional who leaked the game from home (because of the social isolation). But I doubt Naughty Dog would give this freaking game to even a hired professional to play it from their homes without any supervision. And that person would still be affiliated to ND.

Sony could indeed be trying to cover up for them and their son. Obviously it doesn't excuse the awfull working conditions ND imposes on its employees.

A bit of a personal experience, you can skip if you don't wanna read / know:

 

Reading through that Kotaku article from a month ago, it reminds a LOT of the first studio I've worked on. Easily one of the best (project's quality wise) design studios of the state where I live. It had name, it had prestige, just like ND. But working there was hell. Crunch and unpaid over-time was a normal practice there... perfecction above anything else, even your health (heck, we had to pay for our OWN dinner everytime we've worked there at night). And if you dare leave the studio at 6pm before your work was finished or perfect, the team would look down on you on the next day, as if you've abandoned them. They hired trainees and put them to do senior's level work... Not to mention all the screaming and name-calling from the crazy CEO. There was one episode where I've worked almost 24 hours non-stopping. When some folks were arriving at 7am to work on the next day, I was LEAVING the studio to go home and rest. I told the stories to everyone and they always said: "-C'mon, it can't be THAT bad...". Only the people who worked there knew how it really was. But from outside? It was the __________! Every graphic and product design wanted to work there.

I know in the flesh what is to work on an ambient like the former Naughty Dog employees described it... I was getting mentally and physically sick.

I would never defend ND (or any company for that matter, as some individuals have implied I were) if all those stories are indeed true. And I'm pretty sure they are, because these places DO EXIST. And like I said, if the rumors were true and the leak was a form of retaliation by the former employee, he didn't took the best approach he could've. I saw this happening to the studio I've mentioned in the spoiler tag, and it didn't fixed anything, it didn't even helped in the long run. What really got them was the ammount of people who sued the studio for abuse after they left. I was of them, BTW. The will to throw everything in the fire is HUGE, believe me. Everyday I wanted to do something crazy like the guy did, but I knew it wasn't the best idea and at the end of the day I was going to be called crazy because it was a big studio. But sueing them worked, and today this same studio has changed its politics and is a better place to work for everyone.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

8 hours ago, Tornado said:

If even half the stuff that's been popping up again in the past week about Uncharted 4's development is true

Oh? Got a cliff notes version?

[Tornado]

After Amy Hennig and Justin Richmond either left or were forced out of the company by Neil Druckmann (along with people who were loyal to them), he basically forced the game to be scrapped and redone after three years had been put into development so he could throw out the story she had made for a new, Sarkeesian-approved version that he wrote instead. At that point the development team was forced to crunch for two years to get it out, and it was still delayed multiple times; and the studio started firing people who questioned the decisions Druckmann was making that were changed from the original ideas of the game.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

6 minutes ago, Tornado said:

After Amy Hennig and Justin Richmond either left or were forced out of the company by Neil Druckmann, he basically forced the game to be scrapped and redone after three years had been put into development so he could throw out the story she had made for a new, Sarkeesian-approved version that he wrote instead. At that point the development team was forced to crunch for two years to get it out, and it was still delayed multiple times; and the studio started firing people who questioned the decisions Druckmann was making that were changed from the original ideas of the game.

For a general idea of what the original story was to be, Sam would've been a villain, only turning over a new leaf around the end of the game - the reason he was a villain being Nate screwed him over at some point, and he was back for revenge. It wouldn't be revealed that he was Nate's brother until the end of the game as a twist as well. Elena would've been Nathan's partner for the majority of the game, including the Italian Auction, and in general - the first half of the game was to be based around stealth and grappling/climbing mechanics, with gunplay being slowly introduced later into the game. Furthermore, the game would've been left open-ended, instead of the conclusive ending we got with the final game. This video goes into detail:

Adding onto this, you can see remnants of the original Hennig version in the initial reveal trailer, where the character who discusses being left in a hell-hole was Sam. This likely would've still been the prison as seen in the final game, although Nathan would've left Sam behind completely, leading to resentment, likely.

 

[tailsBOOM!]

There's also the fact that Druckmann seemingly admitted to forcing employees to watch snuff films in an interview with Buzz Feed to make the violence as real as possible:

He didn't specify what the videos were, but it's worth noting he only specified that they were from around the world and that they were used to learn how to realistically show violence (Something a movie wouldn't be capable of). Here's the full interview if you want to see the part in question:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ericsams/dangerous-threatening-and-beautiful-the-writing-team-behind?utm_term=.hxzYKr7nl#.kwy5930DE

[Tornado]

If the rumors are true (and the absurd turnover following the game's release suggests they were), what happened with Uncharted 4 was basically the same thing that happened with Mass Effect Andromeda over at EA at around the same time, except that game came out and was a high profile disaster whose development had already become a punchline by that point, and that game has a much clearer chronicle of how bad things were from basically day one.

 

 

 

Whereas Uncharted 4 came out and was well received so Naughty Dogs won countless awards and Druckmann specifically was praised for fostering a shitty place to work with awful development practices and humongous staff turnover; because the game came out and was good even after dealing with all the problems he created, and that's all that's important.

[Wraith]

36 minutes ago, Tornado said:

After Amy Hennig and Justin Richmond either left or were forced out of the company by Neil Druckmann (along with people who were loyal to them), he basically forced the game to be scrapped and redone after three years had been put into development so he could throw out the story she had made for a new, Sarkeesian-approved version that he wrote instead. At that point the development team was forced to crunch for two years to get it out, and it was still delayed multiple times; and the studio started firing people who questioned the decisions Druckmann was making that were changed from the original ideas of the game.

Can I get a source for these rumors? 

[Tornado]

Most of that is straight up just on Wikipedia. It's just resurfacing again following the leak of TLoU2.

[Wraith]

Quote

and the studio started firing people who questioned the decisions Druckmann was making that were changed from the original ideas of the game.

What about this last part?

[Tornado]

That is also something that is on Wikipedia. Jova asked for the cliff notes, so I mentioned things I've seen on Twitter in the last week that largely seemed corroborated by the Wikipedia article, if nothing else.

 

 

 

Kotaku's article on the issue is largely about The Last of Us II, but it references the development of Uncharted 4 a lot as context for how it is unsustainable for the studio. And that was before the game was delayed again for no reason.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

That is also something that is on Wikipedia. Jova asked for the cliff notes, so I mentioned things I've seen on Twitter in the last week that largely seemed corroborated by the Wikipedia article, if nothing else.

 

 

 

Kotaku's article on the issue is largely about The Last of Us II, but it references the development of Uncharted 4 a lot as context for how it is unsustainable for the studio. And that was before the game was delayed again for no reason.

I can't find anything specific on people being forced out of the studio for disagreeing with creative decisions. 

[Tornado]

Okay? Unless it has been removed in the past 90 minutes, there was an example on the page specifically on the game's development since I consulted that page before making my post, so...

 

 

 

I'm not digging up the random Twitter posts I've seen over the past week to try and find sources for claims that they've made for a post I've already said was a cliff notes version of rumors of what was going on during the game's development. I looked over the Wiki page and commented in line with what Jova asked on the things I saw there that seemed to go along with what Twitter was saying had happened, and left out the stuff that I couldn't find. If that's not enough then ignore it.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Tornado

[Wraith]

It's not a huge deal. I was just curious.