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The General American Politics Thread


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29 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

This isn't the time to be a smartass.

Uhhhh, that wasn't my intention tho...

29 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You can be racist to one certain race. Granted, this argument literally has nothing to do with what he's saying, so I don't know what you're on about now.

And truth doesn't require belief.

Interesting, I'll take ir into consideration and do research on it.

On the case of sexism, I remember Trump answering a question

You can argue that these are from 2015 tho....

Although I find the "Donald Trump is blatantly racist — and the media is too scared to call him out on it" one to be  Bullshit mainly cause no matter where I look, Trump is being demonized, in all media I see. The media is too scared to call him out on it? Bullshit. Hell, Trump is a fucking meme for crying out loud.

 

39 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Three of those statements I cannot corroborate outside of conservative websites that only exist to bash Democrats, so as far as I'm concerned their validity is highly questionable. The only thing anyone has on her is the superpredator comment which- here's the kicker- she actually apologized for. No one here except for people who are trying desperately to stan for Trump are making the deluded argument that Democrats and Hillary aren't in any way racist; indeed most active people here subscribe to institutional theory and believe in the validity of basic psychology, that everyone has biases of some sort.

However, only one candidate is actually apologizing for their racist remarks. Another candidate is undermining the dignity of our judges by calling them out on their race because boo-fucking-hoo you're not giving me the ruling I want. Only one candidate can't bring themselves to condemn the KKK's endorsements of them, or to condemn the rowdy behavior of the white nationalists jumping blacks at their conventions and getting away with it. Only one candidate is indeed stroking the cocks of those who need black and brown people to blame for their economic troubles and fragile egos by throwing said minorities under the bus for political gain, and it isn't fucking Hillary. She has the ability to apologize and evolve, or to at least have the damn decency to appear to. Trump has yet to even try, mainly because he doesn't need to since racism carried him all the way to the top of the ticket

I honestly have nothing to say about it since it seems like your reply was meant for who originally posted the picture not me. I just honestly see Mr.Trump as a narcissist to be frank. As I said, he's a redneck Mitt Romney. A rich capitalist who is more focused on running the country like it's a business. Considering that's how the world bank works is why I think he's MEH for the role.

29 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

 

Not really.

 

 

Meh, it's a matter of opinion I guess.

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It's not about voting the "lesser of two evils", whatever that means these twenty minutes.

Am I on Team Clinton? Hell no, I don't even know the woman. But I am on Team Screw These Other Guys.

I'll sleep better at night knowing that the party that wants to legitimize gay conversion therapy, overturn equal rights laws under the guise of protecting religious freedom (read: Christian privilege), roll back minimum wage laws during a poverty and debt crisis, cripple unions, and is spearheaded by a piece of work that wants to use torture tactics and actions considered war crimes on the world stage because the enemy is, was ultimately cast aside as losers of the fight at the end of the day. 

 

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27 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

 

 

 

 

no matter where I look, Trump is being demonized, in all media I see.

Are you at all familiar with Occam's Razor?

It's a principle that the option with the least assumptions is the good one to roll with pending solid evidence of the others (the same reason, for example, we reject the Young Earth, geocentrism, Holocaust denial, and a myriad of other things).

In other words, maybe Trump is legitimately being demonized, rather than it being all part of a massive left-wing conspiracy to keep a great man out of the White House.

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25 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

On the case of sexism, I remember Trump answering a question

Trump doesn't really answer the question because the pay gap currently exists as is even when accounting for similarities in the hours and quality of labor between men and women in the same exact jobs. On top of that, his campaign apparently pays women less than men anyway. His stance on abortion has also been wishy-washy-ish, going back and forth from pro-life to pro-choice, while most current endorsements right now peg him as advancing a pro-life agenda should he be elected. Speaking strictly on issues of feminism, I couldn't trust him because I literally don't know what he'd do about any of these issues.

25 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

Although I find the "Donald Trump is blatantly racist — and the media is too scared to call him out on it" one to be  Bullshit mainly cause no matter where I look, Trump is being demonized, in all media I see. The media is too scared to call him out on it? Bullshit. Hell, Trump is a fucking meme for crying out loud.

The article is not saying that the media isn't talking about racism. The article proposes that the media downplays the obviousness of it by using politically-correct, watered-down language stemming from a lack of diversity on part of online journalism itself.

25 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

I honestly have nothing to say about it since it seems like your reply was meant for who originally posted the picture not me. I just honestly see Mr.Trump as a narcissist to be frank. As I said, he's a redneck Mitt Romney. A rich capitalist who is more focused on running the country like it's a business. Considering that's how the world bank works is why I think he's MEH for the role.

I didn't realize someone else posted the picture. I simply thought you put it in quotes; my apologies (although the points still stand).

Also, you can be all of these things and be racist at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive traits.

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2 hours ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

Are you at all familiar with Occam's Razor?

It's a principle that the option with the least assumptions is the good one to roll with pending solid evidence of the others (the same reason, for example, we reject the Young Earth, geocentrism, Holocaust denial, and a myriad of other things).

In other words, maybe Trump is legitimately being demonized, rather than it being all part of a massive left-wing conspiracy to keep a great man out of the White House.

The razor is double edged tho.  And I never said it was a "massive left-wing conspiracy" I'm saying they roast the guy every time I here about him.

 

2 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Trump doesn't really answer the question because the pay gap currently exists as is even when accounting for similarities in the hours and quality of labor between men and women in the same exact jobs. On top of that, his campaign apparently pays women less than men anyway. His stance on abortion has also been wishy-washy-ish, going back and forth from pro-life to pro-choice, while most current endorsements right now peg him as advancing a pro-life agenda should he be elected. Speaking strictly on issues of feminism, I couldn't trust him because I literally don't know what he'd do about any of these issues.

I never got the whole pay gap argument honestly, I mean...if women were getting paid less than men....why hire men...? I mean honestly, you think people would notice a company only hiring women? Hell no, feminist will think that is some big revolutionary step or something.

As long as you ain't pulling this...

I'm good.

And I'd say his stance on abortion reflects my own.

My stance...

Spoiler

I am pro-life but by law I am pro-choice, cause I can not take action against you,blahblah. I can not effect or change your choice, all I can do is dislike it and bitch about it, you got a problem with my CHOICE not to support, why should you care what I think? By law, there is nothing I can do to you, nor vice versa. So why are you sweating it...I'd offer to take the child, lord knows I'd even pay for it. I'd get down on my knees and cry like a lil bitch. But at the end of the day, it ain't my choice.

 

2 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

The article is not saying that the media isn't talking about racism. The article proposes that the media downplays the obviousness of it by using politically-correct, watered-down language stemming from a lack of diversity on part of online journalism itself.

I don't know exactly how you can politically-correctly censor out Donald Trump, the best way I can think of is to pay the man to stop talking.

 

2 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

I didn't realize someone else posted the picture. I simply thought you put it in quotes; my apologies (although the points still stand).

Also, you can be all of these things and be racist at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive traits.

No need for apologies, I hold nothing.

Oh yes I know that very well. I can just see why people would vote for him. A bird in the hand is better than a bird in the bush. People think they'll never get a chance to have a completely honest as rocks man in the whitehouse again.(JFK, Ronald Regan). The same way you pulled up those sources saying he's racist and sexist etc, I could pull up sources saying he's not. As I said before, everything is bias, nothing is true until you find out yourself, and by that time, someone will already be in the WH. It's pretty much a game of chance with this whole thing.

Obama said this and that, didn't do half of it, how much are these bastards not gonna do, how much of their word are they gonna follow through?

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So the GOP convention is steaming and I hope them to come to my city. They are pretty much speaking to me.

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Honestly the only things In politics i dislike are raising minimum wage at least in FF institutes and erasing college debt........cause that moneys gotta come from somewhere.

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So, to add a little conversation, what issues are the most important to you?

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Make America Plagiarize Again!

 

HmltnD2.jpg

Looks like Melania's speechwriter was just too lazy to come up with anything original for her to say, or maybe they were just naive and assumed nobody would figure it out. But they did, and here we are - a campaign that is largely based on pledging to "right the wrongs" of the Obama administration, found to have plagiarized a speech from the beginning of that very administration.

Oh deary me.

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8 hours ago, Meta77 said:

erasing college debt........cause that moneys gotta come from somewhere.

Raise taxes on the wealthy. Problem solved!

No really. They benefit the most from society so should be forced to pay for its upkeep rather than the self-sufficient individualistic tripe they serve us.

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College tuition fees and debt in America have ballooned since the baby boomer generation got done taking advantage of the eminently affordable college education of their day. The prospect of being burdened for most of the rest of your life with debt, assuming you can even afford to actually make it through the college courses you want to hit up, is a tremendously off-putting obstacle for many people.

America should be trying to educate as many people as it can, at as high a level as it can. That means making all education as cheap as it can make it (free whenever possible), without placing prohibitive cost obstacles in the path of those from low-income backgrounds. It also means tackling issues like entrenched poverty and poor educational standards, which contribute to low education levels.

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Of course, this is where class privilege lines up nicely with racism in America.

Why would a middle class family want free education for poorer folks, when struggling a little to pay for college ensures their child has a huge competitive advantage? That many of those poorer people tend to be non-white (particularly black) would be a bonus for many of those middle class people, of course.

People like to drum up the "self-made" narrative, but I think it's highly likely most people in privileged positions recognize the advantages of maintaining such privilege for their children, all while continuing to feed those children the idea they are better.

I guess it's at least a plus that college tends to have a liberalizing effect (at least if one goes for liberal arts), so privilege might end up doing itself in in that regard.

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44 minutes ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

Raise taxes on the wealthy. Problem solved!

No really. They benefit the most from society so should be forced to pay for its upkeep rather than the self-sufficient individualistic tripe they serve us.

People say tax the wealthy. Who gets to pick and choose who is wealthy. something else about wealthy people, many of them do something people like to gloss over and that is they bring many jobs to people. No one should be forced to pay for someone to go to college cause they feel its a right.

31 minutes ago, Patticus said:

College tuition fees and debt in America have ballooned since the baby boomer generation got done taking advantage of the eminently affordable college education of their day. The prospect of being burdened for most of the rest of your life with debt, assuming you can even afford to actually make it through the college courses you want to hit up, is a tremendously off-putting obstacle for many people.

America should be trying to educate as many people as it can, at as high a level as it can. That means making all education as cheap as it can make it (free whenever possible), without placing prohibitive cost obstacles in the path of those from low-income backgrounds. It also means tackling issues like entrenched poverty and poor educational standards, which contribute to low education levels.

Going to college is not a right or a need its a want. Sure you should educate people but when it comes to the job market college is another step to show your progress. Many jobs require a HS education to get into. And most anyone can get one so that makes its requirements easy. College degrees are needed for most business jobs higher up but not everyone can get one and those that do sometimes get jobs above them as its another step in the carrer chain, and a masters degree later, again another step. If every little flower running around had degrees well that makes the one you have worthless. No longer is it a badge to show you went about just a hs degree, nah if everyone has college degrees its going to be step one and proving why you need a job over the guy next to you.

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1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

Who gets to pick and choose who is wealthy.

Someone who doesn't stress about money regularly (which is about $70,000 a year or so for one person). Once you're in that threshold, I don't think it's unjust to take a little more from you to make sure everyone else has that same peace of mind.

Society is formed for mutual benefit, not so one guy can have most of the pie and whine that everyone else wants a piece.

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something else about wealthy people, many of them do something people like to gloss over and that is they bring many jobs to people.

And those people are promptly exploited in said jobs, being paid a fraction of what their labor is actually worth. What saintly work our capitalist elites have done.

Rich people would be nowhere without poor people. The rich should take care of the poor. 

On the other hand, poor people don't need rich people. France and Russia did what they did for a reason.

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Going to college is not a right or a need its a want.

Given education is likely to make or break a person's economic opportunity in the modern age, I'd say it's a right.

Unless you don't believe in the pursuit of happiness and feel nobody should be able to work their way up?

"People without education do!" Of course they do.

They're not the norm. Data's clear on this.

You know what's not a right? Social status and wealth. These are privileges you should have to pay to enjoy.

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2 hours ago, Meta77 said:

If every little flower running around had degrees well that makes the one you have worthless.

This is seriously fucked up, you know? Like some people have to fail for others to succeed.

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May I say that I absolutely love Mrs. Trump's speech from the convention? I don't know but those words spoke to me especially coming from a fellow immigrant into this country. She is proud to be given what she has and works with it which is what everyone should do. Also Rudy's speech about Trump's character kinds brought tears to my eyes a little and it further confirmed that I am sticking with my choice for president. I want a president who will always be there for the people.  

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Yeah, that's sad. Going to university isn't just about the piece of paper at the end, it's a whole raft of life experience that's invaluable. I made some of my best friends at university, I learned a lot about the world, it taught me valuable life skills, I had amazing experiences and relationships, and it profoundly changed who I am for the better. It's an experience that should be available to more people, instead of being for the middle and upper class. 

Also, guess what? Job markets been fucked for a while, degrees aren't worth much. 

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2 hours ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

Given education is likely to make or break a person's economic opportunity in the modern age, I'd say it's a right.

Not everyone does need a college education, nor is everyone fit for getting one; so defining it as a right on the basis of "it could determine whether they are successful or not" is a pretty willowy reason to throw the word "right" at it.

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

This is seriously fucked up, you know?

It's also not wrong, though. Look in any area with a community college but without a metropolitan infrastructure surrounding it. Hundreds of kids every semester with Associates degrees pour into job markets that now are starting to look at Bachelor's degrees to filter through them instead; and all an associates degree does is give you a leg up over a kid who scraped a GED when you're both looking at a McJob.

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1 hour ago, Tornado said:

Not everyone does need a college education, nor is everyone fit for getting one; so defining it as a right on the basis of "it could determine whether they are successful or not" is a pretty willowy reason to throw the word "right" at it.

If people need a degree for their field, it's logical that they should be able to obtain one as easily as anyone else of equal merit, consistent with the ideal of equality of opportunity.

Yes, not everyone's going to be cut out for it, but pursuing the education if one wishes is the right, not the degree itself.

Indeed, not everyone needs a degree. Great for them. That doesn't work for everyone else. It's why I give my high school drop out father a blank stare when he argues against free tuition because he managed to work his way up to a six digit salary.

In this day and age, education is the primary determinant of one's financial prospects, even moreso than race and gender. It seems logical that if we're going to fight for gender and racial equality, we should be doing the same for education.

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Yes, not everyone's going to be cut out for it, but pursuing the education if one wishes is the right, not the degree itself.

And people do have the right to seek higher education. The entire point of higher education is that it is supposed to offer you a competitive advantage over people who didn't get it. College debt wouldn't be much of an issue if people could go to college for a few years, come out and find a job to justify going to college in the first place; but what instead if happening is that people are going to college, coming out and finding that the jobs available are the same menial shit they could have gotten if they didn't bother. Free college isn't going to make that last part better.

 

Giving free rides at colleges isn't going to make your typical job market currently flooded with Millennials, who had it pounded into their head that a college education is something they need, any more easy to actually get employed in. Giving free rides at colleges isn't going to get any more people into skilled trades, which have spent most of the time those millennials were growing up being presented as "lesser" work. Giving free rides at colleges aren't going to make farmers or factory workers or foodservice workers more apt to make six figure salaries.  Giving free rides at colleges isn't going to make it so people dramatically overeducated don't end up in "undesirable" jobs. Giving free rides at colleges isn't going to keep the people who don't belong in colleges out of colleges. I daresay, even, that giving free rides at colleges isn't going to make things any more fair when people get into the workplace either.

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We interrupt this discussion about college to bring you the biggest (although not only) scandal coming from the Republican National Convention as Melania Trump had plagiarized what was one of the better parts of her speech from Michelle Obama's back in 2008. Although I'm honestly not sure what the hub-bub is about, as this incindent only continues a long and storied tradition of stealing from black people and taking credit for it. 8P

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1 hour ago, Tornado said:

And people do have the right to seek higher education. The entire point of higher education is that it is supposed to offer you a competitive advantage over people who didn't get it.

And a lot of those people who didn't get it didn't make that decision by choice. The prospect of a mountain of debt is enough to scare off a lot of people given it's not the for-sure good job security it once was. Eliminating private debt in the matter changes the cost-benefit analysis.

A right to seek education is meaningless without a positive right to back it up. It's like giving a person the right to vote and then not providing the funding to make sure there's a voting booth somewhere nearby.

 

1 hour ago, Tornado said:

Giving free rides at colleges isn't going to make your typical job market currently flooded with Millennials, who had it pounded into their head that a college education is something they need, any more easy to actually get employed in. Giving free rides at colleges isn't going to get any more people into skilled trades, which have spent most of the time those millennials were growing up being presented as "lesser" work. Giving free rides at colleges aren't going to make farmers or factory workers or foodservice workers more apt to make six figure salaries.  Giving free rides at colleges isn't going to make it so people dramatically overeducated don't end up in "undesirable" jobs. Giving free rides at colleges isn't going to keep the people who don't belong in colleges out of colleges. I daresay, even, that giving free rides at colleges isn't going to make things any more fair when people get into the workplace either.

Sure. But it's still going to be better for equal opportunity.

It was mentioned that degrees are increasingly used to eliminate people from the hiring pool. Sounds like it's no longer a technical requirement, but a necessity to have a chance at even a lower end job. Which means that not providing for a degree path reinforces stratification.

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

We interrupt this discussion about college to bring you the biggest (although not only) scandal coming from the Republican National Convention as Melania Trump had plagiarized what was one of the better parts of her speech from Michelle Obama's back in 2008.

Ah yes, this... the RNC is honestly striking me more as a drama show than anything resembling a political meeting with how many juicy bits we're getting out of it.

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

Although I'm honestly not sure what the hub-bub is about, as this incindent only continues a long and storied tradition of stealing from black people and taking credit for it. 8P

...ZING!

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The blatant plagiarism of a segment of Melania's speech capped off what was generally considered a pretty bad day for the RNC:

Politico had a good article on the day, here. My favorite part:

Quote

Trump himself stepped on one of the early evening’s most moving speakers, Patricia Smith, the mother of one of four Americans killed in Benghazi. As she spoke, holding back tears, the arena was rapt — and roiling with anger. “I blame Hillary Clinton, I blame Hillary Clinton personally for the death of my son,” Smith said.

But Trump was trampling all over the emotional testimony. He had called in live to Fox News, which switched away to hear his thoughts. Among Trump’s urgent messages: “I’m probably the least racist person there is,” he told Bill O’Reilly.

Jesus tap dancing Christ.

It was a farcical first day for the RNC: A perhaps prophetic car accident as Trump's motorcade was en route to the convention center, little-known hard-liners making speeches better suited to Tea Party gatherings, chaos on the convention floor as the Never Trump insurgency was dealt a mortal blow. There was bafflingly awful scheduling mismanagement, leading TV networks to not carry some of the most intense, emotional speeches of the day, and an off-leash Trump ruined one speech on Fox. The Trump campaign insulted Ohio's beloved Kasich, an awful move for a campaign which will be relying on the Ohio GOP to do the work of campaigning for Trump in the run-up to election day.

And then Melania decided Michelle Obama's 2008 DNC speech was great material to copy and paste via thesaurus into her own work, a headline-grabbing act of plagiarism which was described by Michael Gerson, George W. Bush's chief speechwriter, as

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"... a staff failure, indicating a weak campaign apparatus," 

Link-me-do.

The campaign apparatus is probably so weak because Trump is toxic to all of the most noteworthy, skilled GOP insiders and players, and hasn't constructed the field networks of campaign offices and surrogates it needs to win. Apparently, they believe Trump's free press will do all that work instead? I guess we'll see how that plays out.

This is also why so many big name Republicans are staying away from the RNC - they don't want anything to do with it or him, and even now they're quietly plotting a course for the aftermath of what they see as Trump's more than likely electoral defeat.

Melania's speech also included this gem of a line:

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"He will never ever give up. And most importantly, he will never, ever, let you down"

gGNvger.gif

Nice job.

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The funny thing is most of these speeches sound alike so those lines aren't copyrighted. Also the people making misogynist remarks and making fun of her accent also isn't helping.

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Say what you will about Mr. Trump.

I think he will be the biggest victory liberals could ever hope for regardless of outcome.

He took the lid off the GOP's boiling pot of crazy, and the steam came out with scalding force. Every minority imaginable is being pissed on publicly, and the GOP's finding it hard to cover up the racist and sexist undercurrents. All the while, the defeat of the moderates means there's nothing tempering the religious right elements that Reagan tapped into back in the 1980s.

He has alienated even majority group voters, and I wouldn't be surprised if that shakes up party loyalty in elections to come. With America's gradual darkening skin tone and the inevitable decline of the Baby Boomer vote, the GOP's days are most likely numbered unless a swift recovery is made in the aftermath of this.

I guess it all comes down to memory. How many minority voters will forget the bile this man spewed, and how he was still able to clinch the nomination? Hopefully not many.

We might just return to an era of Democratic dominance when the dust has cleared, as formerly Republican voters either vote third party, refuse to vote at all, or switch to the Democrats.

I think between Trump and Sanders' effects, we're going to see a shift leftward in future elections.

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