The General American Politics Thread

[Patticus]

6 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

The funny thing is most of these speeches sound alike so those lines aren't copyrighted. Also the people making misogynist remarks and making fun of her accent also isn't helping.

The lines aren't copyrighted by any means, and the words and sentiments are pretty commonplace, but look at the similarity of the words and lines used, and their placement. It's quite overt.

[-Robin-]

RNC's Chief Strategist attempted to argue that Melanie Trump didn't plagiarize her speech....by quoting a different quote in different context from My Little Pony.

 

 

 

 

This is one bizarre nirvana right now.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yes, I am not gonna deny the speech was copied; as it has been done so many times. Even our president has done it

 

Just words...just not Obama's words!

UH OH!! Full story here: http://bit.ly/2a7VVW9

Publié par Donald Trump For President sur mardi 19 juillet 2016

Not exusing it but still; all that hate for one woman when other politicans have done the same thing?

[-Robin-]

It's less that she plagiarized itself, and more about how she plagiarized a speech from a campaign that they are their doing their damndest to convince people was wrong six ways to Sunday, and threatened American way of life.

 

If the speech copying was an attempt to show the Obama administration "how it's done", then fine. Thing is, they haven't said so, and have been trying to spin the plagiarization as Obama's, Clinton's, tomato's fault instead.

[Tani Coyote]

Also, Deval Patrick was one of Obama's biggest supporters, and get this: he actually suggested Obama copy him. Obama did so, but felt bad about not citing him. Furthermore, they both have a strong relationship with the same campaign manager David Axelrod.

This puts Trump in a much, much worse light. She plagiarized the opposition.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

OK he can slide but what about the others? Is it OK to do it with Edwards because he's a man? It's just one example of men getting away with everything and anything and people bitching because this is a woman doing the same crime.

[Tani Coyote]

3 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

OK he can slide but what about the others? Is it OK to do it with Edwards because he's a man? It's just one example of men getting away with everything and anything and people bitching because this is a woman doing the same crime.

Can't find much on that one, but as they are all Democrats, it's not too surprising they'll use the same messages.

Trump's speech remains rather humorous given how much her husband has slammed Obama.

[Nepenthe]

4 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

The funny thing is most of these speeches sound alike so those lines aren't copyrighted. Also the people making misogynist remarks and making fun of her accent also isn't helping.

Any specific wording (which is what happened here) or idea that you try to pass off as your own that can be attributed to someone else is plagiarism. Thus, plagiarism does not extend only to copyrighted works; the concept extends to everything, including public domain works (you can't claim in any court of law or public opinion that you created Robin Hood just because it's not copyrighted).

But for the sake of argument, let's assume political speeches weren't copyrighted (they are), and let's say that the concept of plagiarism actually did not extend to public domain; you'd still be lying to say that you wrote it, which is what she actually said. When others are caught in these little scuffles, they own up to it, apologize, fire the writer, etc., not double down.

[Dizcrybe]

1 hour ago, Mikyeong said:

The funny thing is most of these speeches sound alike so those lines aren't copyrighted. Also the people making misogynist remarks and making fun of her accent also isn't helping.

Which no one here was doing soooo kind of a moot point?

[Tani Coyote]

While we're here. Let's cover some more tidbits from the convention.

When faced with the fact the party leadership is largely old white males, Rep. Steve King fired back that he feels whites and Christians have done more for civilization than any other group.

Actor Antonio Sabato, Jr., who was a speaker at the convention, later said he's pretty sure Obama is a Muslim.

Further exposing how overly politicized Benghazi was, Donald Trump called into Fox News while a mother of one of the victims was giving a speech, thus making Fox cut the feed of the stage to cover him instead. Much like soldiers, this poor woman is just another pawn the GOP uses to try and advance its agenda with no real sympathy.

Guest speaker Sheriff David Clarke praised the fact not a single officer was charged in the Freddie Gray case, while also accusing the prosecutor in the case of being an activist and Black Lives Matter of being anarchists.

This is just some of the bits from day one. I can hardly wait to see what comes up tonight.

[Tails spin]

36 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Any specific wording (which is what happened here) or idea that you try to pass off as your own that can be attributed to someone else is plagiarism. Thus, plagiarism does not extend only to copyrighted works; the concept extends to everything, including public domain works (you can't claim in any court of law or public opinion that you created Robin Hood just because it's not copyrighted).

But for the sake of argument, let's assume political speeches weren't copyrighted (they are), and let's say that the concept of plagiarism actually did not extend to public domain; you'd still be lying to say that you wrote it, which is what she actually said. When others are caught in these little scuffles, they own up to it, apologize, fire the writer, etc., not double down.

Let's get technical here though. She did write it on paper it just wasnt her thoughts to begin with

[Meta77]

Rofl people seriously consider this a scandal. I mean dang they are grasping at straws. And here I thought growing up an actual scandal was having sex with your intern and lying about it up and down and eventually saying yea i did it.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I'm almost expecting them to rip off Arnold Scharwzenegger's quote in Conan about hearing the lamentation of their women while advocating the destruction of abortion clinics and legalizing rape to "put women back where they belong." Or something.

Speaking seriously however, it's stuff like this that makes it even more difficult for me to understand why any sane person would support them. Especially minorities and the lower class, who are nearly guaranteed to suffer if these lunatics get more power. Not to mention all this does is make America look like it's half decentish, half insane hate filled bigoted religious fanatics, assuming we aren't already seen as that.

[Nepenthe]

On 7/19/2016 at 5:07 PM, Tails spin said:

Let's get technical here though. She did write it on paper it just wasnt her thoughts to begin with

We don't know if she did even that because that's what interns and paid speechwriters are for. All she probably did was sign off on it.

23 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Rofl people seriously consider this a scandal. I mean dang they are grasping at straws. And here I thought growing up an actual scandal was having sex with your intern and lying about it up and down and eventually saying yea i did it.

Yes. When public figures are caught in the wrong and then double down on their lie, people talk about it. That's how news works.

[Tani Coyote]

1 hour ago, SenEDtor Missile said:

Speaking seriously however, it's stuff like this that makes it even more difficult for me to understand why any sane person would support them. Especially minorities and the lower class, who are nearly guaranteed to suffer if these lunatics get more power. Not to mention all this does is make America look like it's half decentish, half insane hate filled bigoted religious fanatics, assuming we aren't already seen as that.

A lot of lower class people are not class conscious, and instead focus on traditional values and their faith. This pushes them into the GOP fold. This is what Trump is currently tapping, as it looks like there's no real attempt to control the full brand of crazy being unleashed by the religious right faction of the Party.

With minorities, class is able to trump (no pun intended) any other distinction. A wealthier black person is quite likely to view themselves as wealthy more than they do black, so become indifferent to racism. After all, while anybody can be a victim of racism, it goes without saying it's a lot better to be a wealthy victim than a poor one (compare Obama's problems to a rank and file black person's).

Basically, poorer people are not very class conscious (otherwise we would have a socialist society), while wealthy people absolutely are.

[Tails spin]

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/135285/so-wrote-melania-trumps-speech

Basically it states that Matthew Scully wrote the draft of the speech. But it bores no resemblance to the final draft. I heard some fingers were point to him but the draft proves other wise. Unless he was involved in the last minute change.

[Tani Coyote]

https://www.gop.com/the-2016-republican-party-platform/

And the 2016 GOP platform is finalized. I’ve written the bits that stood out to me. Broken up by category with my comments in parentheses.

Pretty much all the crazy crap we were discussing before made it into the final text. The religious right got pretty much everything it wanted.

Economy

-Strong criticism of trade relations with China due to its IP thefts and currency manipulation

-Great Recession blamed on government housing policies, not banks

-Criticism of government regulation of financial sectors (…while at the same time calling for regulation of FDIC banks to keep them solvent)

Constitutional Law

-Support for all statutes that ban discrimination on the basis of sex, race or national origin (LMFAO)

-Elimination of administrative law; all regulations should go before Congress

-Support for public display of the Ten Commandments and School Prayer

-Eliminate any restrictions on campaign financing to protect free speech

-Call for elimination of eminent domain when it goes to a private party (Holy crap are you guys actually admitting the private sector can’t always be trusted?!)

-Opposition to the Popular Vote Interstate Compact or any attempt to implement a popular Presidential vote because it could result in a small number of ballot boxes stealing the election (I burst out laughing at this one. I know 2000 was 16 years ago but come on now)

Government Reform

-Border wall covering the whole of the Southern border is proposed

-Sanctuary cities will receive no federal funding.

-Term limits for Congressmen, while discussing how Democrats have blocked these attempts (in reality, the term limit was set to 12 years for both the House and Senate, and it was felt this was so long it was meaningless, so it didn’t get much support even from pro-term limits groups).

Family and Education

-Religious language everywhere

-Argument that marriage should be between one man and one woman, and support for overturning the gay marriage decision in favor of giving marriage to the states

-Allowing businesses and individuals to discriminate as they please on the basis of religious belief (bye bye LGBT protections)

-States will be encouraged to offer the Bible as an elective, because they feel understanding it is necessary to be well-educated

-English First education will be prioritized (despite data showing bilingual education is better for English acquisition)

-Abstinence-only education will become the new priority in sex ed.

-The federal government’s interest in gender issues is overstepping its authority and redefining a sex issue as a sexual orientation issue.

-The GOP praises law enforcement for its role in prosecuting sexual assaults.

-Termination of federal student loans in favor of private business loans

Healthcare

-Parents have the right to choose whatever treatment they see as best for their children (conversion therapy)

Crime

-Roll back Supreme Court restrictions on capital punishment

-Condemnation of the Obama Justice Department’s involvement in local cases (in other words, possible victims of racism)

-Support for mandatory minimum sentencing with exceptions for nonviolent offenders and those with drug or mental issues

-Pornography is declared a public health crisis. Focus is on protecting children from predators (but they say pornography in general is the menace)

-Criticism of states legalizing marijuana despite federal law (whatever happened to states’ rights?)

Defense

-Women should be exempted from the draft and from combat roles (I like how this is written to seem like it’s for their benefit)

[Dizcrybe]

...so like...this only happen if Trump wins, right? I mean, I know how everyone feels about Hillary, but all of this is dead in the water with her in office, right? ...right?

[Patticus]

It's dead in the water with her in office, and technically a president isn't actually legally bound to uphold everything in the platform they were elected on, so even if Trump wins, it's entirely likely that portions of the platform could fall by the wayside if he doesn't feel he benefits from them. A Trump win would legitimize all the horseshit in the platform, though, so you'd inevitably see a rise in discriminatory behavior and overt racism as a result of his winning in November.

That platform though... Jesus river-dancing Christ what the hell are they doing?

[Tani Coyote]

Presumably Trump would play ball with it a lot of it, though, in order to garner the Party's support for his own proposals. Coalition politics and all. Indeed, one of the main ideas of this platform has been to state that Trump is not the Republican Party, only its nominee, in much the same way the Democrats are doing the same with Hillary.

On the other hand, Trump is Trump. He might end up being obstructed almost as much as Obama, albeit because he feels he's "da boss" and doesn't have to work with these underlings.

Given how freely the GOP platform is calling for the impeachment of officials, I would hope a victorious GOP would be on board with removing him for being too disruptive. ...which would probably cause an ironic reversal of fortunes in Democrats trying to prevent his removal, if he's legitimately causing problems with the GOP agenda.

[Nepenthe]

While the platform is particularly odorous from social and secular angles, are we all that surprised that the party known for doubling down on neoconservative policy despite public rejection of said policy because they're stuck with the ardent, vote-happy Tea Party types? For the last decade or so GOP thought has been to chalk up any unpopularity to "not conservative enough." 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

of course as a conservative I agree to most of those except for allowing businesses to discriminate and flipping marriage. to be honest, they should just abolish marriage all together or a major reform on it. you have to sign a paper that says your legally together, go through more courts  etc and if you want to divorce, you have to pay for that (yes you have to PAY to break up with your spouse) and go to court because custody battle.  i am in favor or reforming marriage all together.

[Tani Coyote]

15 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

of course as a conservative I agree to most of those

But why?

Most of them don't stand up to closer scrutiny.

English first education is a failure compared to bilingual education if your goal is to teach students English. Abstinence-only education does not realistically work because there are a variety of factors at play that bring about children born out of wedlock. Blaming the recession on the government's housing policy is hilarious when irresponsible bankers, unscrupulous insurance and credit agencies and the Federal Reserve as directed by President Bush all had a hand in it as well.

Praising law enforcement for its role in prosecuting sexual assault is laughable, when there's a clear bias against women when it comes to those sorts of cases (i.e. male defendants get off easy, while female defendants get harsh penalties). Conversion therapy is largely discredited and constitutes a form of child abuse. A blanket ban on women serving in combat is telling them they are too mentally unfit to weigh the risks and make an informed decision. Critiquing the Justice Department for "activism" conveniently ignores that all too often, minorities only get justice when the federal government steps in.

This platform is lying at best and sociopathic at worst.

[Hyp3hat]

The insistence on Abstinence-Only Sex Ed is laughable. Guess what? Teenagers are getting it on. There is no government power imaginable, not even military force, that will stop teenagers getting it on, as they have for decades and centuries. You could drop nukes and teenagers would be bumping uglies in fallout shelters. 

Of course, if said randy teenagers have access to and know how to use a condom, are properly educated about birth control, and are just generally educated about how to get it on without having kids at 16, teen pregnancy will go down. If you just tell them 'Don't be having sex, I know it's literally all you can think about right now because your hormones have gone into hyperdrive, and I know I'm spending an entire class talking about it, but don't ever do it. Here endeth the lesson' that's not going to stop anyone, so more fodder for the producers of 16 and Pregnant, and also probably result in some repressed adults with messed up relationships and attitudes in the future. 

Of course, the rest of the program is batshit (the banks aren't to blame for the recession, are you absolutely shitting me) bible thumping trash, but the sex ed thing is one of my pet peeves. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

And the Republicans have officially lost their collective minds. What's next, are they going to declare a holy crusade on the world and eradicate all minorities in the name of a White American Empire?