The General American Politics Thread

[Nepenthe]

That wouldn't be too far out of the question considering what some representatives think of non-white people.

[Tani Coyote]

5 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That wouldn't be too far out of the question considering what some representatives think of non-white people.

I'm a Historian and legitimately find this offensive to academia everywhere.

Golden Age of Islam? China's status as the world's greatest state for a thousand years? Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus? To say nothing of Native American civilizations that would probably have become even greater had they not been wiped out by Spaniards.

European civilization happened to pioneer better seafaring technology first, hence it was more globalized, hence this myth that it somehow was more successful. Of course it seems more successful, because it found it easy to reach around the world (something the Chinese themselves could have possibly done with their treasure fleets centuries prior, but the Emperors figured they had enough shit to look after already).

I wonder if jackasses like this are aware that our number system is Arabic, or that paper, printing and currency were first developed in China. This is to say nothing of the ever-important compass that would later became a staple in any European explorer's inventory.

[Dizcrybe]

I honestly think the GOP is undergoing some serious sanity slippage. I think someone else on this board said something to the effect of "now that the GOP is (slowly?) losing relevance, they're going off the deep end." Naturally this means becoming more aggressive and anti non-white Christian male than ever.

[nintega137]

I'm pretty sure the question of what non-whites have invented can be easily solved by a quick google search. I suck at doing research and yet

http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/10/23/100-black-inventions-over-the-last-100-years-you-may-not-know-part-1/

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/the-white-inventor-argument/

http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/inventions/10-inventions-by-african-americans.htm

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/list_of_inventions_by_country.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_inventors_and_scientists

http://qz.com/735731/dear-steve-king-here-are-some-things-not-invented-by-white-people-in-the-us-or-europe/

https://mic.com/articles/100840/7-things-white-people-also-didn-t-discover-but-get-credit-for-anyway-nbsp#.eGGakkHrD

http://www.salon.com/2016/07/19/steve_king_is_very_wrong_here_are_8_major_contributions_to_civilization_made_by_non_whites_and_non_europeans_including_civilization_itself/

Of course with all of these you could also find several places debunking these "myths" and "historical inaccuracies" so even if one did run into these I'm sure they could still think of a reason to ignore/deny it.  

[Patticus]

The entire "whites did invented everything modern and civilized and non-whites have never done anything good" argument type has very disturbing echoes back to the 19th century, when such views were fairly commonplace (and held by  notable individuals like Theodore Roosevelt) and resulted in the perpetration of terrible atrocities against Native Americans, African Americans, the Chinese and other migrant groups. I'm pretty sure that it ties in with eugenics, too, which only makes it worse.

That such views can be espoused in a modern RNC and not result in an immediate and justly harsh worldwide outcry is troubling. Perhaps once this Melania plagiarism crap has blown over...

 

The Melania story has been a bit of a double-edged blade for Democrats and liberals: On the one hand, it has dominated the news cycle for at least two days now, preventing much of the rest of the speeches there from entering (maybe influencing) the public consciousness. On the other hand, it is absolutely scandalous that a man can get up at the Republican event of the half-decade, talk like that and not be publicly eviscerated right away, just because the nominee's wife got lazy on her speech and wasn't told to re-write it.

[nintega137]

36 minutes ago, Patticus said:

The entire "whites did invented everything modern and civilized and non-whites have never done anything good" argument type has very disturbing echoes back to the 19th century, when such views were fairly commonplace (and held by  notable individuals like Theodore Roosevelt) and resulted in the perpetration of terrible atrocities against Native Americans, African Americans, the Chinese and other migrant groups. I'm pretty sure that it ties in with eugenics, too, which only makes it worse.

That such views can be espoused in a modern RNC and not result in an immediate and justly harsh worldwide outcry is troubling. 

 

 

This actually isn't that uncommon of a mindset in modern day actually. A lot of minorities, blacks in particular are often viewed as a less intelligent "species" by many people. Including believe it or not a lot of black people and other minorities. I don't think it's as commonplace as it used to be, but it's far from gone. What gets me is how it's used as a justification for the things they do.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/10/18/dna-discoverer-blacks-less-intelligent-than-whites.html

http://www.christianityandrace.org/p/black-and-iq-distribution-jesus-said.html

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/29/juan-williams/juan-williams-whites-think-blacks-are-less-intelli/

http://www.diversityinc.com/ask-the-white-guy/most-white-people-think-blacks-are-intellectually-inferior/

http://religionnews.com/2014/12/08/poll-whites-say-blacks-lazier-less-intelligent-whites-3-graphs/

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jencks-gap.html

http://www.rense.com/general78/blk.htm

https://africacheck.org/2015/03/12/analysis-black-brain-white-brain-the-new-wave-of-racist-science/

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/04/10_ways_white_people_are_more_racist_than_they_realize_partner/

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

As for the speech, they found the speech writer responsible for that: http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/20/politics/trump-aide-offers-resignation-in-melania-trump-plagiarism-incident/index.html?sr=fbCNN072016trump-aide-offers-resignation-in-melania-trump-plagiarism-incident1234PMStory

and she offered to resigned but the Trumps said no that it was a mistake on the aides part. I'm still an admirer of them and how they handled this situation and I still believe Mrs Trump's speech was great; especially as a foreigner and an immigrant. 

[Dizcrybe]

Even if most of it wasn't hers...

[Nepenthe]

How does a paid speechwriter in a presidential campaign go through life not knowing that plagiarism is wrong and more than a simple mistake?

If I were to simply receive outside help on some of my assignments at college- much less take work that's not my own- not only would I have failed the class but I would have been kicked out of school and subsequently out tens of thousands of dollars.

And this guy gets a pat on the back and coddling from the Trumps?

Buuuullllshiiiiiiiit.

[Patticus]

31 minutes ago, Mikyeong said:

I'm still an admirer of them and how they handled this situation

My understanding of the rough order of events following the speech's delivery is as follows: Melania stated that she wrote the speech with "little help," implying that if speech writers were involved, they had little input. The Trump campaign then refused to acknowledge the overt copy paste job, and now we have a speech-writer - who, if they are telling the truth, is not of the caliber a presidential candidate needs - offering up their resignation and being refused by Trump, when the last draft of the speech they are known to have done apparently bears little to no resemblance to the one delivered on Monday night, indicating that perhaps Melania did a re-write of her own.

The Trump campaign should have immediately moved to ascertain the order of events, terminate the writer's employment (if they were at fault at all) and issue a public apology to Michelle Obama. This did not need to become a convention-dominating headline, hell it didn't need to happen at all, and that it did makes the Trump campaign look sloppy and unprofessional. I'm sure that the Clinton campaign is even now poring over all their speech drafts for the DNC, erasing tracts of text and writing up some fresh stinging barbs.

 

And then there's the other Melania story going around. You know, the one where she, Trump and the GOP all write glowingly on their various web pages about her getting a degree in design and architecture from a Slovenian university, despite the fact that she dropped out after a year and received no degree. I'm sure that if Michelle Obama had lied so overtly about her own past and qualifications, the GOP and the media would be all over her about it...

Trump doesn't need another lying Melania story dogging him out of the convention, but hey, it might happen anyway.

[Toa Axis]

Anyone keeping up with the RNC stream? Absolute nonsense being spewed left and right.

Wow, Rubio just showed up. 

NOW CRUZ

[Nepenthe]

Cheering Brexit. Equating all of 2000 refugees we've got with terrorists when all of the sympathizing attacks we've had were homegrown. Equating social conservatism with the current party name and acting like they're responsible for ending slavery and caring about black people. Actually taking credit for Lyndon B Johnson's Civil Rights Act. Eye-rollingly talking about Charleston's forgiveness when these people haven't forgiven Pearl Harbor.

Yep, it's a GOP convention alright.

[Burnt Ash]

I saw the speeches by Dr. Alvarado and Scott Walker. I didn't really agree with the arguments Alvarado presented but I thought he delivered his speech pretty well. Scott Walker, on the other hand, has the rhetorical skills of a robot.

[Nepenthe]

Haha, Ted Cruz never actually endorsed Trump and slowly the crowd started raging into a full blown cacaphony and booing. Cruz may be a shitheel but he's got some balls to do that.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I do want to ask; am I safe to assume most people in this thread lean to the left? And what issues are important to you? 

[Nepenthe]

Prejudice based upon inherent biological factors one cannot control is the single biggest issue to me. I don't care about any jobs, economic, healthcare, or foreign policy plans before that. If we are unwilling to work towards morally and systemically treating all human beings as equals due to our pride and fear or not being seen as perfect little snowflakes who worked hard, if we are unwilling to be honest and say there are still severe issues plaguing the running of this country from a context of prejudice against blacks, natives, Latinos, women, LGBT youth, the disabled, etc.- to not say that these issues that are unique onto themselves (instead of thinking economics solves everything)- instead of trying to bury it all under the lack of individual responsibility and whine about no one being directly responsible, then it stands to reason that a country that's slowly becoming more and more diverse in terms of identity will eventually fail without that foundation of mutual respect and empathy on part of the ruling classes, as it has time and time and time again throughout history.

Now, social conservatism as we have seen from the GOP is built upon the maintenance of the status quo (that status quo being white supremacy), the belief that all of the problems of this country stem from the belief that we going away from our country's perfectly serviceable roots without recognition that the historical context of America's roots are bathed in the subjugation, torture, and erasure of minorities. When people say they pine for the good ol' days of the 40s and 50s, I as a black person inevitably see a time where it was cool beans to beat black children and weigh them down in a river with fucking barbed wire tied around their necks. That right there is the history of white American conservatism in this country and it's why I will never vote for a party steeped in that political viewpoint regardless of its name. It just so happens that the party that's courting it right now is the Republican Party, but if for some reason Democrats lost their minds and thought such a demographic was worth fighting for, I'd abandon them in a heartbeat. Until conservatives can get it through their heads that we are not equal, that America is not and never has been a utopic meritocracy where all you need to make it is hard work, and that minorities are not lying about their life experiences, then I will never vote for them on a basic principle of self-respect.

[Toa Axis]

Pence is coming across as pretty charismatic. Vouching for ever-abhorrent views, of course, but he seems personable, at least.

The hollow appeals towards minorities also ring very hollow in the face of, well, everything about both what Trump and the Republican platform have demonstrably put in the spotlight. 

[Patticus]

BREAKING NEWS: President Donald Trump not interested in handling domestic, foreign policy

Quote

One day this past May, Donald Trump’s eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., reached out to a senior adviser to Gov. John Kasich of Ohio, who left the presidential race just a few weeks before … Donald Jr. wanted to make him an offer nonetheless: Did he have any interest in being the most powerful vice president in history?

When Kasich’s adviser asked how this would be the case, Donald Jr. explained that his father’s vice president would be in charge of domestic and foreign policy.

Then what, the adviser asked, would Trump be in charge of?

“Making America great again” was the casual reply.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/magazine/how-donald-trump-picked-his-running-mate.html?_r=1&referer=

Goddamn, he's the gift that keeps on giving, isn't he?

If true, why would anybody vote for a man who isn't even interested in actually doing the job for which he is running? At least Hillary's going to be spending her term(s) actually working.

Still though, it seems somehow appropriate for the party of the Do-Nothing Congress to nominate a Do-Nothing Presidential Nominee. At least now the curtains match the drapes... so to speak.

[Meta77]

1 hour ago, Mikyeong said:

I do want to ask; am I safe to assume most people in this thread lean to the left? And what issues are important to you? 

A lot from what I gather do not even live in the US lol. Most on this site are super left. But not a lot are as politically charged as you may think. For me making sure our country comes first, protecting our borders, and bringing jobs back to the US are my main thing. And stopping all these hate groups.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

17 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

I do want to ask; am I safe to assume most people in this thread lean to the left? And what issues are important to you? 

I'd like to say most people on this thread (because no doubt there are small pockets of bigots on here) - whether left or right - lean toward what makes sense and what will do some actual good without harming or infringing on the rights and liberties of other people regardless of race, sexual orientation, religion (or lack thereof), gender, or class.

And quite frankly, a lot of what the current RNC is supporting is anathema to much of that - supporting them for just one or two issues is not enough to guarantee my support for a political group because that is opening the floodgates for all of the issues that risks doing me or someone else unnecessary harm based on the above. Which is why I'll hardly, if ever, vote for that group until it gets its act straight. I consider myself a left-leaning centrist that does see value in a few of what the right believes in, namely gun ownership and desire for a strong and capable military, and I can understand their fear of muslims as terrorists (which before anyone gets overly excited to jump down my throat over, you should pay attention when I say I actually find them deliberately misguided given how few of them we've actually been having). That, and I strongly agree with their distrust of trade with China given the nonsense the PRC has been trying to pull internationally. But the sheer nonsense of the rest of their platform stands on eclipses a lot of good they're willingly to do, either because it's either: 

1. unrealistic (abstinence-only has evidence showing that it doesn't work widespread and pornography isn't a goddamned health crisis), 
2. self-serving and bigoted (the fucking Bible as an elective? That's against the 1st Amendment on the freedom of religion, and we already have Church for that. And discrimination against the LGBT community? Women exempt from combat roles despite the lines between combat and support getting further blurred?),
3. arbitrary or hypocrical as hell such as wanting the government step in for things when they want it except when they don't, for reasons like the above because the government totally needs to violate people's privacies granted by the 1st Amendment (again) and step in to stop things like pornography from harming kids, as opposed to the goddamned parents who should be the ones responsible for keeping their children from accessing it until they're responsible enough to handle it - 'cuz it doesn't take much effort for a savvy 14 year old that's horny enough to find it on the web. And given what has been happening over the years, you honestly think they'll actually enforce a ban of discrimination based on race, gender, or national origin? Especially on gender given that they're wanting women exempt from combat roles in the military, which is contradicting.

And given all that, quite frankly I don't trust them to actually stand up for a lot of those issues that quite frankly would benefit me given that they're not actually doing it very well now. My support goes mostly to the left because while they may have the flaws similar to the above or even advocate what I disagree with, they're a lot less damaging by comparison.

[Tani Coyote]

 

I felt I should post this. Warren and the article's author did a good job critiquing laissez-faire capitalism, Randism, etc.

It's from an article on why Ayn Rand was wrong, by the way.

14 hours ago, Patticus said:

The Melania story has been a bit of a double-edged blade for Democrats and liberals: On the one hand, it has dominated the news cycle for at least two days now, preventing much of the rest of the speeches there from entering (maybe influencing) the public consciousness. On the other hand, it is absolutely scandalous that a man can get up at the Republican event of the half-decade, talk like that and not be publicly eviscerated right away, just because the nominee's wife got lazy on her speech and wasn't told to re-write it.

It really speaks to how much our media loves drama over the things that matter, doesn't it?

Yes, plagiarism is bad, but it's worrying that an elected official is spouting overtly racist comments and isn't getting any coverage. So much for the left-wing media.

10 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

I do want to ask; am I safe to assume most people in this thread lean to the left? And what issues are important to you? 

It's a fairly safe assumption.

As a gay man, obviously gay rights is important, and from this, I have a broader interest in social justice. My experience with marginalization gives me some idea of what other marginalized groups go through (though I would of course not claim the gay experience is the same as the black experience, for example).

At the same time, my discipline in History with dabbling in Sociology and Economics has made me see what has worked and what has not. I'm going to be partisan as hell here, but I quite frankly think that most of the time, it is the left-wing policies that work and not the right-wing ones.

It does not help that, to be brutally honest, I feel like a lot of modern right-wing policies simply have no consideration of reality, despite conservative politicians often trying to claim the mantle of being realistic.

Don't get me wrong, I think conservatives have a lot of good ideas (preserving personal freedom, providing for self-defense, strengthening the family, etc.), but their policies for implementing them leave something to be desired.

10 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Until conservatives can get it through their heads that we are not equal, that America is not and never has been a utopic meritocracy where all you need to make it is hard work, and that minorities are not lying about their life experiences, then I will never vote for them on a basic principle of self-respect.

That would most likely require abandoning the idea of the superman individual, however, and when they do that, chances are they will no longer be conservative.

A lot of modern conservative and libertarian thought falls apart when you no longer recognize the individual as the primary determinant of their situation, after all.

It makes no sense to say "you have no skills!" to a minimum wage worker, for example, if education is not easily attained. And even if it is, simple economics determines that educated people will sometimes have to work less desirable jobs purely due to luck of the draw. Which makes the argument for a higher minimum wage even stronger.

Likewise, once one recognizes the influence other people's prejudices can have on where you end up in life, the cause for government intervention starts to rapidly build.

The list really goes on. Libertarianism and conservatism are based on a core idea of a very powerful individual who is responsible for his or her own success or failure, barring the most visible cases of aggression from others like robbery and murder.

Those on the left seem more in tune to the fact we are a social species, and just about everything we do impacts others.

Where the libertarians and conservatives have the right idea is the concept that there should be strong rights as a guarantee that the state's growing (if we're going the route of more programs, regulation, etc.) power is not boundless (and indeed most liberals will agree on this, because most of us aren't actually collectivists). But strong should not mean "absolute," and that's where the disagreement often is.

[Hyp3hat]

12 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

I do want to ask; am I safe to assume most people in this thread lean to the left? And what issues are important to you? 

I'm not American, so I'm mostly here to point and laugh/cry/lament the state of the universe, but I have friends in America/Friends who are marrying Americans, so I have a bit of a vested interest in not seeing said friends lives go to shit.

In general, the rightward slide in public discourse is the most frightening thing to me, because I think what happens in America has a knock on effect in Britain, and vice versa - Brexit and Trump are very similar in terms of a disaffected, white, predominantly working class set of people voicing their displeasure at the political class (as well they should! The political class are shit) but are having their biases turned against them by said political class against their own interests. 

For instance, immigration is a major sticking point in both countries, but the real problem with immigration is (in Britain) that it highlights neglected public services where these people suffer, such as infrastructure, welfare budgets, public housing, education and healthcare systems, as well as a lack of jobs in the areas (particularly the North) where the manufacturing industry was destroyed in the 80s. Rather than blame themselves for not building enough public housing, slashing school budgets, training enough doctors, putting more money into the NHS, Thatcher making it her personal mission to destroy that manufacturing  industry, etc, the political class would rather blame migrants for these problems, even if they aren't to blame. 'Being tough on immigration' is seen as desirable in the UK, despite the fact that immigration has done wonders for Britain. 

It's a con act, but it's too effective - Trump's the nominee and we just left the EU, which are two things the establishment didn't want. They sowed the seeds for it, though. These things have a marked detriment to everyone's quality of life.

[Tani Coyote]

I also want to take a moment to give respect points to Cruz. For all his issues, I can give credit to someone who is willing to stand up for his family.

He's not going to endorse a ferret wearing butthole just because said ferret wearing butthole is his Party's nominee. Trump's character is not befitting of a person who is supposed to be the leader of the world's superpower. He's arrogant, reckless, sociopathic and comes off more as a mascot for the worst America has to offer rather than anything resembling a world leader.

It'd be nice if Cruz' supporters peel away from Trump a little in response to all this. It would balance out the Bernie or Bust issue the Democrats are dealing with.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

As for me, I lean towards the right. As someone who moved to this country, border control is kinda important and I can understand how others feel about illegal immigrants taking up their jobs. Border control doesn't mean keeping all non-Americans out, it means they need to go through the steps to enter the country legally and make sure that no one flies through the cracks. Also make the legal process easier.

That and healthcare is also important as getting it is very expensive especially when most people have our type of income. That and getting the best medicines shouldn't require going overseas or paying an arm and a leg. 

[Tornado]

43 minutes ago, Raccoonatic Ogilvie said:

He's not going to endorse a ferret wearing butthole just because said ferret wearing butthole is his Party's nominee. Trump's character is not befitting of a person who is supposed to be the leader of the world's superpower. He's arrogant, reckless, sociopathic and comes off more as a mascot for the worst America has to offer rather than anything resembling a world leader.

It'd be nice if Cruz' supporters peel away from Trump a little in response to all this. It would balance out the Bernie or Bust issue the Democrats are dealing with.

Mitt Romney, a considerably more charismatic, moderate and mature (and handsome) Presidential candidate than Ted Cruz ever could have been, held his own press conference about six months ago warning Americans about Donald Trump, and urging them to take into account what he saw as a snake. He made an impassioned speech that I mostly ignored when I was watching it while waiting for my car to be serviced, but caught a few parts of it and it rang pretty true. All that actually accomplished in the end was that it incensed people to throw more support behind The Donald, since how dare a failed Presidential candidate dictate what people feel about the current election cycle.

 

 

Mark my words: All that Ted Cruz accomplished with this is make him look like a sore loser. Bernie supporters may hate Hilary enough to vote Republican, but the alternative to voting for Donald is voting for... Hilary. And no former Ted Cruz supporter is going to do that.