The General American Politics Thread

[Mad Convoy]

3 hours ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

I am so happy the FBI have reopened the case. She cannot get away with this.

But what exactly did she do?

Prior investigations showed that the emails were mostly mundane stuff and things that aren't classified, and noted that its not illegal to have emails on a private server. Now the tweets Patticus showed indicate that there may not even be Clinton emails in this new investigation. Plus it hasn't been hidden that this is relating to the emails found in relation to the Anthony Weiner pedophilia case (whom one of her aides is married to), not relating to her actions as Secretary of State or Senator (the emails relating to that have already been leaked or handed over by Clinton herself per request, investigated, and closed). Its standard procedure that when law enforcement investigates somebody's phone or computer, they take a good look at the contacts and see all the correspondences that have occurred to scope out other suspects. Obviously, its extremely unlikely that everybody, or even most everybody, on the contacts list or that has been communicated with makes a plausible suspect, was in on the crime, or has committed their own unrelated crimes, but law enforcement still likes to check everybody out to try to catch and find as many people as possible.

I think what Comey did was a bad idea. There's a reason the FBI does not usually announce investigations like this, and that's because they can be twisted into declaring the investigated guilty before a verdict has even been reached, introducing bias that complicates investigations. This comes off as very suspicious too considering that he only mentions this 11 days before Election Day-- shock of all shocks, Comey is an active Republican, meaning that he very likely doesn't want Clinton as President. Not to mention that "it might be something, but it also could be nothing at all" doesn't mean much in an investigation besides being a sign that it just started or that the investigations need to look more into things or drop the case due to lack of evidence-- because unlike the general public which tends to make up its mind arbitrarily, the judge is presuming that everybody is innocent until she or he is presented concrete evidence that proves guilt-- and "maybes", while good for rhetorics, aren't concrete and thus very weak foundations for a case.

I highly doubt they'll find anything tbh. I just think it was unprofessional of Comey to announce it and the GOP and Trump to convict her and set up the gallows before anything has even come of it. As somebody who doesn't like Hilary all that much, believe me when I say that you do not need to falsely accuse her of crimes to prove that she kind of sucks. Its all just very disappointing.

[Tani Coyote]

If it was anything that bad, I don't think she'd be safe from impeachment. The GOP will keep a decent number of seats and I imagine some of the establishment would be happy to remove her for the sake of the Party. The Party likes Clinton, but it is bigger than Clinton.

In short: no real reason to change one's vote. A pretty scummy move on Comey's part though. Sadly Obama's in no place to dismiss him given any replacement would likely be partisan as well.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/10/28/doj-complaint-filed-fbi-director-james-comey-interfering-presidential-election.html

Annnnd he's had a complaint filed against him with the DOJ. We'll see if the DOJ responds.

On 10/28/2016 at 5:11 AM, Dizscream said:

As has been stated, a lot of these people aren't well-educated, if at all, dare I say.

 

18 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

How much education does it really take to realize being well off without racism is better than being poor, but socially superior. Like wtf?

A lot of people - even the poor - buy into the idea anyone can become the next Bill Gates. Cheering on discrimination against minorities increases one's own odds of becoming that next Bill Gates. It's the same reason that as income decreases, support for free tuition starts to drop. For those who understand how crappy poverty is, they're probably pessimists about reform and feel that at least this way, they can have "whiteness as wealth."

American history is this ugly mixture of principled racism and racism of self-interest. Principled racism has been slowly weakening (see how opinions against interracial marriage and integrated schooling have largely disappeared, but there's still a lot of negative opinions of blacks' intelligence and work ethic), but racism of self-interest hasn't declined as much, because race remains a convenient way to limit one's competition. Racism of self-interest happens even in casual circumstances courtesy of statistical racism: when I was looking up safety in urban areas, for example, there were people literally saying it was helpful to be racist and avoid blacks, especially if they were in crowds. It was very "what the fuck." This isn't even accounting for how much of the statistical racism is based on lies; a lot of white people have bought into the idea black men would be terrible fathers for their daughters' children, but the data shows that if anything, black men are the best fathers.

What a lot of whites don't understand is that while white privilege helps them, class privilege is an even larger barrier than race in one's prospects: education, not race or gender, is the biggest determinant of income, for example. Broader social programs might help minorities, but they also help the majority considerably.

It's the ultimate capitalist con. Many whites, even those without strong racist inclinations, were sold on the idea of cutting social programs as a way to help their own prospects (or give them somewhat real, largely imaginary racial wealth). In the end, the unholy union of racism (both Northern and Southern style), the religious right and fiscal conservatism only served to benefit the wealthy; it's still better to be a poor white than a poor black, but it's easy to see that all but the wealthiest Americans - regardless of color - have seen their prospects shrink over the last several decades.

[Kevin]

Personally, I don't think this will have much of an impact for these reasons:

-Many early votes have already been cast and most people have made up their minds already. If this will sway anyone, it'll be those who were thinking about voting third party or the last few remaining people who are sitting on the fence.The main problem for Clinton is lower enthusiasm for her voting block who may decide to stay home instead.

-Most people are tired of the election in general and want it to be over. Let's not forget, there's currently the World Series going on along with both college and pro football happening this weekend which has great interest of the public.

-Everyone already knows about Clinton's e-mail problem already. I must have heard of collective "groan!" when the subject came up yet again. Keep in mind Clinton has been under the microscope for years and managed to come out of it alive.

With all that being said, I'm expecting one more shoe to drop regarding Trump sometime next week, because every time the spotlight turns on Clinton, he manages to either say something, do something, or something bad about him comes out that turns the spotlight right back on him. Remember, there's still 10 days left. This is not over.

Edit: As if this whole thing couldn't get anymore crazier, the Justice Department warned Comey that his letter to congress wasn't consistent with the department's policy.

[Patticus]

On another subject, the trailer for Michael Moore in TrumpLand, has just released:

Aside from the fact that he now looks like Skrillex, I was very surprised to find that the show had in fact been filmed right here in the town I live and work in - Wilmington, OH. I had heard that he'd come a few weeks ago to do the show, but other things got in the way and I forgot to go check it out. I had no idea it was going to be made into a new movie.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

19 hours ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

I am so happy the FBI have reopened the case. She cannot get away with this.

Or there might not be anything to really dig up and this'll just make Comey look like a needless asshole in retrospect. Wouldn't be the first time something stupid like that has occurred this duration.

[Conando]

I mean, didn't it ALREADY happen the first time? I'm not entirely sure what Comey has to gain by making a further ass of himself.

[Tani Coyote]

4 hours ago, Count Conando said:

I'm not entirely sure what Comey has to gain by making a further ass of himself.

He's fabricating another scandal against the Democrats, like Benghazi or the IRS targeting.

For years to come, this investigation will be hailed as evidence the system is corrupt, rigged, etc. when really it's more like they really didn't have anything on her. Some minor misconduct, perhaps, but this isn't even close to Watergate.

Let's be frank. The GOP feeds on lies to survive. It bases its platform on faulty economic ideas, unproven religious dogma, and a variety of racist and sexist ideals that are conclusively bullshit in the face of science. The real reason they dread education is because educated people start to quickly realize how nonsensical pretty much all of the platform is.

Thus the GOP's next big lie is born: all of education is a lie if it's anything besides STEM or business. That or students are stupid and being brainwashed by professors. A self-serving take on human intelligence that ignores pretty much anyone can be misled.

At some point, we need to apply Occam's Razor. When study after study after study supports one view, chances are high it's going to be the truth. "Liberal bias" in academia isn't that useful a concept, when we consider something new: maybe liberal people don't make education, so much as education makes people liberal.

One must ask, if truth is the goal, then why would people not support the truth? How can there be such a broad spectrum of political ideas if there is truth?

Because quite frankly, the truth isn't always useful for one's goals. If you're wealthy and want a super yacht, the idea of giving away a good chunk of your money back to society to stabilize the economy might not sit well with you.

[Tani Coyote]

So. A Trump supporter put up a special decoration "just for Halloween." The decorations? Two hanging black mannequins.

I can't think there's any way they didn't know what they were doing, especially given I'd imagine most mannequins aren't going to be black in color. He could have at least tried to make a hanging body display more tasteful by having one white and one black, but no. All black. This says "recreation of a lynching" rather than "a psycho came through here."

But yeah. This really runs home the point of the strong undercurrent of racism and racial insensitivity in the Trump campaign. At least he had the courtesy to put this up so close to Election Day; maybe this will remind some people why it's so important to keep Trump out of power.

[Patticus]

Evidence seems to have come to light that Trump might be brewing up his own private server fiasco: he may have a secret server that communicates with a Russian bank.

The article's way too big to quote in its entirety, so here's the conclusion:

Quote

What the scientists amassed wasn’t a smoking gun. It’s a suggestive body of evidence that doesn’t absolutely preclude alternative explanations. But this evidence arrives in the broader context of the campaign and everything else that has come to light: The efforts of Donald Trump’s former campaign manager to bring Ukraine into Vladimir Putin’s orbit; the other Trump adviser whose communications with senior Russian officials have worried intelligence officials; the Russian hacking of the DNC and John Podesta’s email.

We don’t yet know what this server was for, but it deserves further explanation.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/10/was_a_server_registered_to_the_trump_organization_communicating_with_russia.html

Even if it's an entirely innocent endeavor, Trump and co's deeply suspicious histories and ties with Russia make it imperative that he answer for this as soon as possible. I doubt it'll impact the polls before election day, or at all, but damn.

Speaking of Russia, Trump's former campaign manager is being investigated by the FBI for links to the country.

Quote

The FBI has been conducting a preliminary inquiry into Donald Trump's former campaign manager Paul Manafort's foreign business connections, law enforcement and intelligence sources told NBC News Monday.

Word of the inquiry, which has not blossomed into a full-blown criminal investigation, comes just days after FBI Director James Comey's disclosure that his agency is examining a new batch of emails connected to an aide to Hillary Clinton.

And it comes a day after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid criticized Comey's revelation and asserted that Comey possesses "explosive information about close ties and coordination between Donald Trump, his top advisors, and the Russian government."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-making-inquiry-ex-trump-campaign-manager-s-foreign-ties-n675881

Jesus.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I believe they would call this "irony"...

[Patticus]

More on what Trump cards Comey's probably hiding..,

Quote

A Veteran Spy Has Given the FBI Information Alleging a Russian Operation to Cultivate Donald Trump

Has the bureau investigated this material?

From Russia With Trump, coming to a theater near you, never.

Quote

On Monday, NBC News reported that the FBI has mounted a preliminary inquiry into the foreign business ties of Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign chief. But Reid's recent note hinted at more than the Page or Manafort affairs. And a former senior intelligence officer for a Western country who specialized in Russian counterintelligence tells Mother Jones that in recent months he provided the bureau with memos, based on his recent interactions with Russian sources, contending the Russian government has for years tried to co-opt and assist Trump—and that the FBI requested more information from him.

"This is something of huge significance, way above party politics," the former intelligence officer says. "I think [Trump's] own party should be aware of this stuff as well."

Does this mean the FBI is investigating whether Russian intelligence has attempted to develop a secret relationship with Trump or cultivate him as an asset? Was the former intelligence officer and his material deemed credible or not? An FBI spokeswoman says, "Normally, we don't talk about whether we are investigating anything." But a senior US government official not involved in this case but familiar with the former spy tells Mother Jones that he has been a credible source with a proven record of providing reliable, sensitive, and important information to the US government.

In June, the former Western intelligence officer—who spent almost two decades on Russian intelligence matters and who now works with a US firm that gathers information on Russia for corporate clients—was assigned the task of researching Trump's dealings in Russia and elsewhere, according to the former spy and his associates in this American firm. This was for an opposition research project originally financed by a Republican client critical of the celebrity mogul. (Before the former spy was retained, the project's financing switched to a client allied with Democrats.) "It started off as a fairly general inquiry," says the former spook, who asks not to be identified. But when he dug into Trump, he notes, he came across troubling information indicating connections between Trump and the Russian government. According to his sources, he says, "there was an established exchange of information between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin of mutual benefit."

This was, the former spy remarks, "an extraordinary situation." He regularly consults with US government agencies on Russian matters, and near the start of July on his own initiative—without the permission of the US company that hired him—he sent a report he had written for that firm to a contact at the FBI, according to the former intelligence officer and his American associates, who asked not to be identified. (He declines to identify the FBI contact.) The former spy says he concluded that the information he had collected on Trump was "sufficiently serious" to share with the FBI.

Mother Jones has reviewed that report and other memos this former spy wrote. The first memo, based on the former intelligence officer's conversations with Russian sources, noted, "Russian regime has been cultivating, supporting and assisting TRUMP for at least 5 years. Aim, endorsed by PUTIN, has been to encourage splits and divisions in western alliance." It maintained that Trump "and his inner circle have accepted a regular flow of intelligence from the Kremlin, including on his Democratic and other political rivals." It claimed that Russian intelligence had "compromised" Trump during his visits to Moscow and could "blackmail him." It also reported that Russian intelligence had compiled a dossier on Hillary Clinton based on "bugged conversations she had on various visits to Russia and intercepted phone calls."

The former intelligence officer says the response from the FBI was "shock and horror." The FBI, after receiving the first memo, did not immediately request additional material, according to the former intelligence officer and his American associates. Yet in August, they say, the FBI asked him for all information in his possession and for him to explain how the material had been gathered and to identify his sources. The former spy forwarded to the bureau several memos—some of which referred to members of Trump's inner circle. After that point, he continued to share information with the FBI. "It's quite clear there was or is a pretty substantial inquiry going on," he says.

"This is something of huge significance, way above party politics," the former intelligence officer comments. "I think [Trump's] own party should be aware of this stuff as well."

The Trump campaign did not respond to a request for comment regarding the memos. In the past, Trump has declared, "I have nothing to do with Russia."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/veteran-spy-gave-fbi-info-alleging-russian-operation-cultivate-donald-trump

Quote

FBI Director James Comey argued privately that it was too close to Election Day for the United States government to name Russia as meddling in the U.S. election and ultimately ensured that the FBI's name was not on the document that the U.S. government put out, a former FBI official tells CNBC.

The official said some government insiders are perplexed as to why Comey would have election timing concerns with the Russian disclosure but not with the Huma Abedin email discovery disclosure he made Friday.

In the end, the Department of Homeland Security and The Office of the Director of National Intelligence issued the statement on Oct. 7, saying "The U.S. intelligence community is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of emails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations…These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process."

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/31/fbis-comey-opposed-naming-russians-citing-election-timing-source.html

So: Why does Comey feel empowered to unilaterally announce a fresh investigation into Clinton's e-mail server (or at least whether the old case should be re-opened) just 11 days before the election, but not the ongoing investigation into intelligence on Trump's bewilderingly disturbing connections with Russia? And why doesn't he, unlike so many intelligence and other experts out there, dare come to any solid conclusions regarding Russia meddling in American political affairs?

It may not be intentionally partisan behavior, I don't know, but the optics of all this for Comey look terrible, to the extent that I can't see a President Clinton keeping him around for very long.

[KHCast]

16 hours ago, Raccoon Bandit Ogilvie said:

So. A Trump supporter put up a special decoration "just for Halloween." The decorations? Two hanging black mannequins.

I can't think there's any way they didn't know what they were doing, especially given I'd imagine most mannequins aren't going to be black in color. He could have at least tried to make a hanging body display more tasteful by having one white and one black, but no. All black. This says "recreation of a lynching" rather than "a psycho came through here."

But yeah. This really runs home the point of the strong undercurrent of racism and racial insensitivity in the Trump campaign. At least he had the courtesy to put this up so close to Election Day; maybe this will remind some people why it's so important to keep Trump out of power.

Love this comment chain and how no matter how racist, trump supporters fucking point to the "Hilary's emails" boogeyman as some justification for why this is more okay to do. Especially love when he tried to compare Hilary to being just as racist as trump when the KKK and its ties to trump was brought up. Why the hell is it always white privileged guys that claim they aren't racist throwing shit and defending trump and whatever the fuck he blatantly does and the negative effect it has had on people. Jesus this annoys me

Second comment 

Fox fucking news as a credible source lol.

[Johnny Boy]

I just love whenever someone talks about Trumps racism, his sheep are super quick to bring up Robert Byrd. True he was a part of the KKK once and did filibuster against the Civil Rights act of 1964, but what a lot of them gloss over is that Byrd changed his ways later on in life and said multiple times that joining the KKK was the biggest mistake he made in his life.

Not only that but he also supported civil rights after he turned over a new leaf and was against the Iraq War. Not to mention that he was praised by the NAACP after his death, oh and that quote of Hillary saying that Byrd was a great mentor and that photo of her hugging him that trump supporters like to use? All of them occurred AFTER his heel face turn.

[Tani Coyote]

The name of the game this election really is picking the lesser evil. "Trump's badness doesn't excuse Hillary's e-mails!" True, but Hillary's e-mails likewise don't excuse the bad parts of the Trump demographic.

One has to ultimately calculate social consequences and go from there. The Democrats' policies are more in line with what works in most other Western countries. They are the clear better choice, and Hillary is just a part of that better choice. With Clinton and a Democratic Congress, we will get universal healthcare, near-universal tuition, and a shift towards the New Deal era, even if not a complete recreation. To Hell with her personal drawbacks with this in mind. What does Trump give us, by comparison? More failed Republican policies and the resurgence of the religious right.

The Supreme Court vacancy being filled really needs to remain a key issue in this. The GOP can't be allowed to take the Senate or the Presidency if we want to continue this country's move leftward.

3 hours ago, Johnny Boy said:

I just love whenever someone talks about Trumps racism, his sheep are super quick to bring up Robert Byrd. True he was a part of the KKK once and did filibuster against the Civil Rights act of 1964, but what a lot of them gloss over is that Byrd changed his ways later on in life and said multiple times that joining the KKK was the biggest mistake he made in his life.

This is especially humorous given the Christian leaning of many Republicans. Whatever happened to forgiveness?

Then again, many American Christians are the odd man out among Western Christians in supporting the death penalty. So the idea of denying forgiveness and redemption isn't too alien.

 

[KHCast]

Discussing the issue of poverty and its ties to issues like racism and sexism and other social injustices, and of course gotta have that white friend that argues against it. Even after providing links sources and evidence, here's what was said:

1. It's simply a subjective opinion and claim and it's wrong for me to treat this proven issue as fact.

and 2. Racism isn't a cause for poverty for many, and those people simply need to just "work hard and raise their families right" if they wanna be successful and escape poverty.

also some racist claim about gangs not being caused by oppression, and ignoring that gangs aren't just a black thing, but okay.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I like how they bring up slavery in Egypt to deflect slavery in Europe and the Americans.

Yes, slavery was a thing in Egypt. Here's the big difference - it wasn't based on trivial shit like skin color. 

[KHCast]

And of course, poverty in Europe is brought up as a defense to how economic downfall isn't tied to race. Like 1. These issues aren't indirectly caused and linked to race and stupid shit like that nearly as bad as America, and 2. Asian Americans are more successful compared to Hispanics in America usually probably due to the racial stigmas not being as bad for them, and them being given better means(education and opportunities) since white Americans seem to value them as assets more.

[Dizcrybe]

Moral of the story: stop arguing with idiots on Facebook. Or anywhere.

[KHCast]

Pretty much. Everyone's vote is set in stone. I don't think much is going to change. Though geez the trump supporters are showing up way more lately on my Facebook and Twitter.:|

[Nepenthe]

Have some fun watching Trump supporters try to intimidate voters down in Florida: https://projects.propublica.org/electionland/florida/west-palm-beach-trump-supporters-use-bullhorns/

[KHCast]

 

Bryan Cranston on Trump. Lol the ending.

[Tani Coyote]

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

Pretty much. Everyone's vote is set in stone. I don't think much is going to change. Though geez the trump supporters are showing up way more lately on my Facebook and Twitter.:|

I am legitimately facepalming that the new investigation seems to actually be plummeting Hillary's numbers and now she's barely ahead of Trump, or actually behind him.

I fucking hate Comey, to put it lightly. What a piece of shit. He knows full well what he did.

Think bigger picture, America. The Democrats will work towards universal healthcare, universal tuition, a stronger safety net, rights for minorities... Jesus Christ. This really shouldn't even be a debate. The GOP is a dinosaur and the sooner it becomes a fossil with bunk ideas like trickle down economics, a larger police presence, and throwing rocks at foreign governments for not bending to our will, the better.

[nintega137]

5 hours ago, KHCast said:

Discussing the issue of poverty and its ties to issues like racism and sexism and other social injustices, and of course gotta have that white friend that argues against it. Even after providing links sources and evidence, here's what was said:

1. It's simply a subjective opinion and claim and it's wrong for me to treat this proven issue as fact.

and 2. Racism isn't a cause for poverty for many, and those people simply need to just "work hard and raise their families right" if they wanna be successful and escape poverty.

also some racist claim about gangs not being caused by oppression, and ignoring that gangs aren't just a black thing, but okay.

 

 

2 hours ago, KHCast said:

And of course, poverty in Europe is brought up as a defense to how economic downfall isn't tied to race. Like 1. These issues aren't indirectly caused and linked to race and stupid shit like that nearly as bad as America, and 2. Asian Americans are more successful compared to Hispanics in America usually probably due to the racial stigmas not being as bad for them, and them being given better means(education and opportunities) since white Americans seem to value them as assets more.

 

Question.

 

Why were you talking to these people anyway? Especially if you provide sources that they either deny or ignore while providing things like fox news or just saying crap? I see these guys all the time on and offline anyway and this is one of the reasons I never engage with them (the other one being that discussing big topics like this isn't really something I'm good at anyway without anxiety acting up). I mean I'm just going to have to parrot what Diz, said why are you talking to these people lol? What is there to gain from this. 

[Tani Coyote]

2 minutes ago, nintega137 said:

Question.

Why were you talking to these people anyway? Especially if you provide sources that they either deny or ignore while providing things like fox news or just saying crap? I see these guys all the time on and offline anyway and this is one of the reasons I never engage with them (the other one being that discussing big topics like this isn't really something I'm good at anyway without anxiety acting up). I mean I'm just going to have to parrot what Diz, said why are you talking to these people lol? What is there to gain from this. 

He did say it was a friend of his.

A natural extension of compassion is the desire to correct bad behaviors. You'd try to keep a friend out of crime, so it makes sense to try and keep a friend from voting for Trump and a good chunk of the GOP's leaders.

Sadly, the resistance to change does make it seem like a fruitless enterprise.

[nintega137]

Just now, Noelgilvie said:

He did say it was a friend of his.

A natural extension of compassion is the desire to correct bad behaviors. You'd try to keep a friend out of crime, so it makes sense to try and keep a friend from voting for Trump and a good chunk of the GOP's leaders.

 

Oh, yea he did say that. My bad, but in a way that almost makes it even worse. I also have facebook friends who supported Trump and while I didn't talk to them myself, seeing them talk to other people told me they wouldn't listen, and several of them unfriended me themselves when they found out I didn't. Some unfriend me if they find out I support or at least don't hate #BLM. 

6 minutes ago, Noelgilvie said:

He did say it was a friend of his.

A natural extension of compassion is the desire to correct bad behaviors. You'd try to keep a friend out of crime, so it makes sense to try and keep a friend from voting for Trump and a good chunk of the GOP's leaders.

 

Also another thing, for a friend, he didn't seem to talk in a way that sounded like respectful debate. 

 

Just the first half of that in particular. Who says "I'm bored so I'll indulge you" to a friend? Sounds more like something you'd say to be a jackass to a random youtube commenter or something. Not your "friend".