The General American Politics Thread

[Milo]

Just been sitting here stunned in disbelief right now.

He actually did it. The absolute madman.

...

All I can say is that this country will be paid back in its own coin what it gave for the outcome of this election--both the good and especially the bad.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, WakanoBaka said:

Again, pointing to people that are technically different in this case...

There is no "technical difference" in this case unless you think black Americans are more violent than Syrian Britons.

[KHCast]

2 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

I legit don't care about that. BLM is useless because it's nothing more than a useless group/name/hashtag for injustice. A person getting shot for a fucked up reason.It's called racism. Doesn't need a hashtag or a social trend or whatever. All lives matter, and I don't mean the hashtag, I mean everybody is important. Just because I'm black, I'm suppose to support something blindly and willingly just because blacks are in on it?

Answer me this, what makes you think that America(not the government, the people) majority don't care about black lives?

I don't care what Trump Supporters do, they can be racist, problem is if they try to act on it.

 

Again, pointing to people that are technically different in this case...

So the civil rights movement, by your logic was a pointless group then? I mean this all lives matter shit attempts to equalize all social issues when the reality is many groups face worse than others, and focusing on them and pointing them out specifically, is better than treating it like its nothing. Yes all lives matter, no shit, but fighting for rights of the oppressed shouldn't be fucking challenged or treated like some bad thing where were "getting special privilege"

[WakanoBaka]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

There is no "technical difference" in this case unless you think black Americans are more violent than Syrian Britons.

That would be stupid consider I am black.

My point went over your head. I'm speaking of the fact that those are Syrian Britons and not BLACK or that those are not American citizens but Brexitans....Brexityans....whatever they are called...

[Tani Coyote]

2 minutes ago, Patticus said:

Joaquin and Julián Castro are considered rising stars within the party, delivering speeches at multiple DNCs. I could see one of them running in 2020.

Hispanic and from Texas?

In light of the growing Hispanic population (we should have millions more Hispanic voters in 2020) and their state of origin, they actually sound like pretty good choices. They sound relatively moderate and left leaning so I'd say they're certainly viable from a political standpoint as well.

...I assume there will be a ton of El Presidente jokes given their last names, though.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, WakanoBaka said:

That would be stupid consider I am black.

Black people can be wrong too.

Just now, WakanoBaka said:

My point went over your head. I'm speaking of the fact that those are Syrian Britons and not BLACK or that those are not American citizens but Brexitans....Brexityans....whatever they are called...

Your syntax is terrible. I literally can't parse what you're saying.

[WakanoBaka]

Just now, KHCast said:

So the civil rights movement, by your logic was a pointless group then? I mean this all lives matter shit attempts to equalize all social issues when the reality is many groups face worse than others, and focusing on them and pointing them out specifically, is better than treating it like its nothing. Yes all lives matter, no shit, but fighting for rights of the oppressed shouldn't be fucking challenged or treated like some bad thing where were "getting special privilege"

 

Civil rights were aiming for equality. Mind telling me how BLM is aiming for Equality when a black man can still get a decent job and get paid even more than his white counterpart? OR that all he has to do is call something racist then it automatically is?

 

Just now, KHCast said:

I mean this all lives matter shit attempts to equalize all social issues when the reality is many groups face worse than others, and focusing on them and pointing them out specifically, is better than treating it like its nothing.

Didn't I say I'm not talking about the hashtag or group, ALM.

 

Just now, KHCast said:

 Yes all lives matter, no shit, but fighting for rights of the oppressed shouldn't be fucking challenged or treated like some bad thing where were "getting special privilege"

You are failing to show me how they are fighting for the oppressed. Cops killing blacks is not oppression, it's just fucked up racism. How about better training for the blues? No? Kill them instead? How about firing the ones who shot innocent people? No? Lay them off with pay?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So, Tornado said earlier that Congress would have an easier time impeaching Trump than Clinton if he screws up...how likely is that actually? My cynical side tells me that the GOP dominated Congress and conservatives against Trump would flip-flop on the bad things they've said, so I'm not sure if that would actually be the case unless it goes blue come 2018.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

I guess having Beyoncé, Jay-Z, Katy Perry, Lady GaGa etc.'s support meant jack all. Clinton got smashed in the election. Smashed.

Never really cared about Clinton but I hope she's alright.

[WakanoBaka]

9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Black people can be wrong too.

Mind telling me what that has to do with the context and how you are not the only one thinking " black Americans are more violent than Syrian Britons". What you just said here; "Black people can be wrong too."  legit doesn't make much sense in this case since we aren't talking about a group of people being right or wrong.

 

9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Your syntax is terrible. I literally can't parse what you're saying.

Okay well lemme rephrase it; Americans are not the same as people from other countries.

[KHCast]

Actually BLM has worked with police officials in certain states. They've worked legally to provide better treatment. 

 

As for oppression, how about inequality regarding sentencing, or educational inequality, or economic wise for majority of blacks? Seriously, you're trying to tell me essentially racism isn't existent in 2016 for blacks.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, WakanoBaka said:

Okay well lemme rephrase it; Americans are not the same as people from other countries.

No one made an argument hinging on Americans needing to be perfectly like other populations, so this doesn't actually refute anything anyone has said.

[Tani Coyote]

4 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Black people can be wrong too.

Just gonna clarify what Nepenthe's talking about by discussing internalized racism.

There's a portion of blacks, about 10-20%, who you could mistake as white with their views on racial issues; I've gone so far as to call them modern minstrels before, given they come off as whites in blackface with their opinions. They repeat the same stuff: blacks' problems are largely their own fault, racism isn't an issue anymore, they focus on violent protesters over the peaceful ones, etc.

Go figure, they tend to be the more well-off blacks. They did well, ergo racism must not exist. They also tend to come from the more privileged lifestyles, judging by how they like to repeat myths like blacks having widespread absentee fatherhood (which is a lie, a damned dirty lie: black men are the most active in their children's lives per capita, whether they are with the mother or not). Then they parrot the concept of historical innocence, arguing that whites have no obligation to fix the black community because those whites aren't the ones who owned slaves or backed Jim Crow, in spite of the huge amount of inherited wealth many whites owe to those more repressive periods. Cue these same blacks being wheeled out by conservative elements as "proof" of how discussing racism is the "race card" being played.

When you consider Frederick Douglass, who was born a slave and managed to work his way up to free, relatively comfortable celebrity status, remained adamant about the problems of racism, this is particularly depressing. Now sure, slavery was literally a state or two over, but the fact it takes overt slavery to believe in racism speaks to how little the issue is understood by whites and privileged blacks.

[Baconjack]

I've been sitting here for at least half an hour in shock. It is absolutely jaw-dropping how millions of people without brain cells can trust someone who can't run a business, let alone run this country. 

He actually did it. He won the election.

Trump would have gotten Virginia easily if Tim Kaine wasn't on Hillary's ticket, which would have resulted in a landslide. But, with him on it, it cost Hillary in the end. The minute Trump got Florida he was destined to win.

Hopefully Trump/Pence get a taste of their own medicine in the 2018 midterms, and get the boot in 2020 when another Democrat who doesn't have the intellect of Kanye West challenges them. 

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

We're really looking somewhat optimistic for the next two years for the chance to say "We fucking told you so," aren't we?

[Dark Qiviut]

42 minutes ago, Patticus said:

Pro Tip for the Democrats: Lessons must be learned now so that the Senate can be flipped in 2018, and an effective presidential bid can be launched in 2020. No civil war, no endless blame game, no continual hand-wringing, just get on with the task at hand.

Agreed.

Nobody took the Trump campaign seriously, and the Clinton campaign made several key mistakes.

1. Calling Trump supporters "deplorables." This is her "47%" moment. Here's a tip. If you're going to try to get people to vote, NEVER insult the other side! Romney's comment about the 47% helped decide the election, and her comment ignited a sleeping giant.
2. Taking the Rust Belt states for granted. The Clinton campaign assumed they had Michigan and Wisconsin in the bag. They didn't. And when they realized it, it was too late. Trump's campaign persisted in getting his message out to the Rust Belt and made late stops in these battleground states. When you work overtime there, you imply to them you care.
3. She took the young voters for granted. What was the theme of this whole cycle? Washington needs to change the status quo. Like it or not, Clinton resembled more of the same, and it's not hard to see why. Bernie Sanders ignited the young vote because he wasn't afraid to admit that this country should do better, and he was the best candidate out of everyone out there. Young voters have every reason to be apathetic against Washington.
4. Taking Independents, the largest voting block, for granted. If you're going to try to get people to vote, you must get Independents to vote for you. Trump convinced Independents to vote for him. Even with his blatant nationalism, his message resonated with them. Clinton didn't do that.
5. Her skeletons were exposed. What she didn't wasn't criminal or illegal, but the fact that her email security was that damn poor tells people she's detached from modern technology and has trouble with security. In turn, this implies she can't keep America safe.
6. "It's the economy, stupid." Trade hit blue-collar voters hard, and many believe trade cost them jobs and growth in the places they live in. Trump claims to be anti-TPP (though Pence is pro-NAFTA), but Clinton was for the TPP until later in her campaign.

If anyone here is going to scapegoat third-parties and young voters/millennials for being apathetic about the election, don't! You'll repeat the same mistakes as Bob Dole, Kerry, McCain, and Romney. Focus why Trump succeeded in areas where she failed. Again, is he better than Clinton? Not even close. But does it mean he can't sell himself as better than her? No. Trump was able to rally people into voting for him and excite them. His campaign team sold the idea that Trump can improve America better than Clinton. The purpose of a campaign is to sell a message. Trump sold his message better.

Clinton's campaign repeated the same mistakes as Romney during his campaign. Like he, they cost her the election.

[Tani Coyote]

7 minutes ago, Sir Laptop said:

Hopefully Trump/Pence get a taste of their own medicine in the 2018 midterms, and get the boot in 2020 when another Democrat who doesn't have the intellect of Kanye West challenges them. 

 

I'm really liking the idea of the Castro brothers already. They've got the moderate liberal position of Clinton, without the baggage she has.

Plus, let's be frank. They're men. I think for something like this, it hurts more to be a woman than non-white. I imagine men have an easier time thinking as a demographic than whites, given the differences between race and sex. Then there's respectability politics: I think a non-white man will have an easier time selling himself as capable than a woman. Let's consider: while perceptions of race are relatively recent, in the last few centuries, perceptions of gender go back thousands of years.

That's to say nothing of the fact that being black is a category of its own when it comes to racial issues. If Obama was still able to win in spite of being black, I think the Castros will have no trouble at all from their ethnic background. We're seeing Hispanics rising in prominence on both sides of the aisle.

[Conando]

14 minutes ago, Ming Ming Hatsune said:

I guess having Beyoncé, Jay-Z, Katy Perry, Lady GaGa etc.'s support meant jack all. Clinton got smashed in the election. Smashed.

Never really cared about Clinton but I hope she's alright.

Smashed is an overstatement. It was 49% to 48%. 

[WakanoBaka]

 

 

2 minutes ago, Noelgilvie said:

Just gonna clarify what Nepenthe's talking about by discussing internalized racism.

There's a portion of blacks, about 10-20%, who you could mistake as white with their views on racial issues; I've gone so far as to call them modern minstrels before, given they come off as whites in blackface with their opinions. They repeat the same stuff: blacks' problems are largely their own fault, racism isn't an issue anymore, they focus on violent protesters over the peaceful ones, etc.

Go figure, they tend to be the more well-off blacks. They did well, ergo racism must not exist. They also tend to come from the more privileged lifestyles, judging by how they like to repeat myths like blacks having widespread absentee fatherhood (which is a lie, a damned dirty lie: black men are the most active in their children's lives per capita, whether they are with the mother or not). Then they parrot the concept of historical innocence, arguing that whites have no obligation to fix the black community because those whites aren't the ones who owned slaves or backed Jim Crow, in spite of the huge amount of inherited wealth many whites owe to those more repressive periods. Cue these same blacks being wheeled out by conservative elements as "proof" of how discussing racism is the "race card" being played.

When you consider Frederick Douglass, who was born a slave and managed to work his way up to free, relatively comfortable celebrity status, remained adamant about the problems of racism, this is particularly depressing. Now sure, slavery was literally a state or two over, but the fact it takes overt slavery to believe in racism speaks to how little the issue is understood by whites and privileged blacks.

Ah, an explanation. So is ol Neppy implying that I'm well off and/or have never experience racism? I'm laughing on the inside...it's sounds like an echo chamber and I mean that literally.

 

But moving on.

 

1 minute ago, KHCast said:

Actually BLM has worked with police officials in certain states. They've worked legally to provide better treatment. 

 

Bet the media hasn't focused on that. OR I'm willing to bet these aren't the  really bad areas. Like NJ, have you lived in NJ. Those cops will kick in the door, steal your shit, drag you on the street and leave you there handcuffed. To bad I was too young to know I could sue.

1 minute ago, KHCast said:

As for oppression, how about inequality regarding sentencing, or educational inequality, or economic wise for majority of blacks? Seriously, you're trying to tell me essentially racism isn't existent in 2016 for blacks.

Oh yes, the ol wet work. You know that stuff is technically illegal right. And I do remember saying;

26 minutes ago, WakanoBaka said:

Answer me this, what makes you think that America(not the government, the people) majority don't care about black lives?

 

1 minute ago, KHCast said:

 Seriously, you're trying to tell me essentially racism isn't existent in 2016 for blacks.

 

That would be like saying that their isn't somebody out there who has a fetish for getting his penis cut with a scissor. Guess what, it's out there, it's not hard to fine. But it doesn't need the BLM movement. Or at least not a movement with as little slow progression as them, if any at all.

1 minute ago, Conando said:

Smashed is an overstatement. It was 49% to 48%. 

That be funny if that 1% was just some random drunk guy who tossed a coin

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So, until 2018, what are we expecting? Realistically - meaning, try not to let too much paranoia and rage get in the way of what might actually happen.

With Congress and the Presidency both in the hands of conservatives, how big do we really expect them to take steps back over all that was accomplished? I know foreign affairs will very likely not do so well, but this election told me that surprises can happen.

[WakanoBaka]

5 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Agreed.

Nobody took the Trump campaign seriously, and the Clinton campaign made several key mistakes.

1. Calling Trump supporters "deplorables." This is her "47%" moment. Here's a tip. If you're going to try to get people to vote, NEVER insult the other side! Romney's comment about the 47% helped decide the election, and her comment ignited a sleeping giant.
2. Taking the Rust Belt states for granted. The Clinton campaign assumed they had Michigan and Wisconsin in the bag. They didn't. And when they realized it, it was too late. Trump's campaign persisted in getting his message out to the Rust Belt and made late stops in these battleground states. When you work overtime there, you imply to them you care.
3. She took the young voters for granted. What was the theme of this whole cycle? Washington needs to change the status quo. Like it or not, Clinton resembled more of the same, and it's not hard to see why. Bernie Sanders ignited the young vote because he wasn't afraid to admit that this country should do better, and he was the best candidate out of everyone out there. Young voters have every reason to be apathetic against Washington.
4. Taking Independents, the largest voting block, for granted. If you're going to try to get people to vote, you must get Independents to vote for you. Trump convinced Independents to vote for him. Even with his blatant nationalism, his message resonated with them. Clinton didn't do that.
5. Her skeletons were exposed. What she didn't wasn't criminal or illegal, but the fact that her email security was that damn poor tells people she's detached from modern technology and has trouble with security. In turn, this implies she can't keep America safe.
6. "It's the economy, stupid." Trade hit blue-collar voters hard, and many believe trade cost them jobs and growth in the places they live in. Trump claims to be anti-TPP (though Pence is pro-NAFTA), but Clinton was for the TPP until later in her campaign.

If anyone here is going to scapegoat third-parties and young voters/millennials for being apathetic about the election, don't! You'll repeat the same mistakes as Bob Dole, Kerry, McCain, and Romney. Focus why Trump succeeded in areas where she failed. Again, is he better than Clinton? Not even close. But does it mean he can't sell himself as better than her? No. Trump was able to rally people into voting for him and excite them. His campaign team sold the idea that Trump can improve America better than Clinton. The purpose of a campaign is to sell a message. Trump sold his message better.

Clinton's campaign repeated the same mistakes as Romney during his campaign. Like he, they cost her the election.

And this might be a dirty trick, but she didn't take advantage of the fact she has an illness/disability. It's fucking evil but you KNOW it woulda worked 

[KHCast]

The government are essentially the people as the people seem to support and back those things listed. Otherwise we wouldn't have those inequalities in full force to begin with 

also, it's as illegal as job inequality for other minorities. What's new?

[WakanoBaka]

Just now, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

So, until 2018, what are we expecting? Realistically - meaning, try not to let too much paranoia and rage get in the way of what might actually happen.

With Congress and the Presidency both in the hands of conservatives, how big do we really expect them to take steps back over all that was accomplished? I know foreign affairs will very likely not do so well, but this election told me that surprises can happen.

Well, I expect more crime and less countries wanting to play ball with the USA, oh and lesser gas prices.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And this might be a dirty trick, but she didn't take advantage of the fact she has an illness/disability. It's fucking evil but you KNOW it woulda worked 

I doubt it. Might've convinced people that she was even less fit to govern since she could pass away at any given moment according to some people...

[Tani Coyote]

1 minute ago, WakanoBaka said:

Ah, an explanation. So is ol Neppy implying that I'm well off and/or have never experience racism? I'm laughing on the inside...it's sounds like an echo chamber and I mean that literally.

For my part, I was just clarifying how it's possible for blacks to be insensitive towards issues facing blacks. I'm not saying anything about you personally.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

So, until 2018, what are we expecting? Realistically - meaning, try not to let too much paranoia and rage get in the way of what might actually happen.

With Congress and the Presidency both in the hands of conservatives, how big do we really expect them to take steps back over all that was accomplished? I know foreign affairs will very likely not do so well, but this election told me that surprises can happen.

The Democrats have more than 40 seats in the Senate. Short of the nuclear option being used, that's enough to stage a filibuster.

In short, they can kill any attempt to repeal Obamacare and the like, or otherwise shortcircuit Republican policies.

Furthermore, it's such a narrow majority on the GOP's Part that it's possible the Democrats might be able to win some of them over from time to time, as the Senate is less partisan than the House.

The Senate really is our last defense against insanity at this point. The threat of a filibuster will help with damage control in both Trump's appointments and legislation.