The General American Politics Thread

[Johnny Boy]

I usually try to stay out of political threads. But seeing the type of people Obama might be going against, I really won't be surprised if he gets a second term.

[TheGerkuman]

The thing is, the republicans believe that doing nothing is preferrable to passing something that they believe could wreck the country. Which isn't a bad idea in principle...

... Except when you're in a situation where doing nothing is the worst option. That's just being pig-headed.

[turbojet]

If Cain can get his shit together and stop being a walking PR screwup (which looks very unlikely), he's another one who has a chance (albeit a far smaller one).

Herman Cain would be barbecued(no racial pun intended). He honestly believes that if nominated, he and other Republicans will get 20% of the black vote. The black vote has been 90% Democrat since the Reagan years. He knows little to nothing about international relations(he has read up on them), and he already has a scandal going for him. Let us put it in perspective. Out of all the Supreme Court Justices, Clarence Thomas has the lowest approval rating. Not because black people universally hate him. Women don't take kindly to him either with the whole Anita Hill controversy. Herman Cain is Clarence Thomas on the national stage. There is no way he could ever beat Barack.

[TheGerkuman]

The thing is though, it's generally not about who's best but about who wins the most primaries. And in that sense Mr. Cain has a shot.

[Tornado]

The Republicans must share a significant portion of the blame due to the level of control they have on the house.. I think it's the house of representatives? Anyway, he can't get anything done the way it should be done because the GOP presence there opposes him, not the policies but him and all he wants to do, and the only way he can get things passed is by watering them down and compromising to the point that they're not worth half as much as before, because something done is better than nothing done, and then he's attacked for compromising and shit?

Come on, he's damned no matter what he does isn't he?

Edited November 13, 2011 by Tornado

[turbojet]

I am not saying that he doesn't have a chance in the primaries. I'm saying that he doesn't have a shot against Obama.

[Tornado]

Herman Cain would be barbecued(no racial pun intended). He honestly believes that if nominated, he and other Republicans will get 20% of the black vote. The black vote has been 90% Democrat since the Reagan years. He knows little to nothing about international relations(he has read up on them), and he already has a scandal going for him. Let us put it in perspective. Out of all the Supreme Court Justices, Clarence Thomas has the lowest approval rating. Not because black people universally hate him. Women don't take kindly to him either with the whole Anita Hill controversy. Herman Cain is Clarence Thomas on the national stage. There is no way he could ever beat Barack.

I agree with all of this except the last sentence. A big part of why Obama won the first time is because he was able to successfully combat voter apathy (charisma and all that) among groups of people who by default feel disenfranchised towards the federal government (and especially Republicans). Without that turnout of of people that I think he almost certainly won't get this time, any reasonably charismatic Republican could pull off a win if Obama's fortunes continue to worsen in terms of public opinion.

Would Cain be some miracle saving throw for the blacks/minorities/what have you? Absolutely not. But will Obama see the votes from minorities/young people/whatever that he did the first time? I don't think so. Basically, I don't think either candidate would end up with a decisive advantage in those demographics, because I think those demographics will go back to being apathetic.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Tornado

[SuperStingray]

I don't really hate the GOP, just the two party system that tries to ensure all we get a leader arbitrarily based on who has the most radical or promising beliefs rather than the most relevant or plausible ones. I think the biggest delusion in politics is that compromise and moderation equates to political weakness. This is absolutely insane and the republican primary is a complete testament to that. Rick Perry is using how many people he has EXECUTED as a POSITIVE bullet point in his campaign, and apparently that is the case with many rightwing constituents. And Herman Cain is heavily promoting his 999 plan because, apparently, which taxes you cut is less important than the fact you're going to cut taxes. See, you're not going to win the Republican debate unless you can out-"RonaldReagan," out-Homophobia, out-DeathPenalty and out-LookLikeYouCanHaveABeerWithMe the other candidates. See, I'm moderate for a reason- I don't believe one's political passion comes from how far left or right they're on the political spectrum, but how "up" or "down"- the degree to which they stick to their beliefs. That's the problem we have with Obama- he didn't tell us what we needed to hear, he told us what we wanted to hear. And right now, the whole board of candidates isn't saying what they want, just what their voters want, and they'll sacrifice anything for a ballot. The only one up there I respect is Ron Paul since he sticks relatively firmly to the platform he came in on, but even then I wouldn't vote for him since to me, Libertarianism is essentially Anarchy with training wheels.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So based off the comments people have made, I'm betting the impression that the 2012 elections is going to be a clusterfuck or a mess of some kind between Obama and whatever GOP candidate he goes against.

And there's no guarantee who'll win.

[SuperStingray]

So based off the comments people have made, I'm betting the impression that the 2012 elections is going to be a clusterfuck or a mess of some kind between Obama and whatever GOP candidate he goes against.

And there's no guarantee who'll win.

Never before have I truly felt like I'm in that episode of South Park with the Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich. Only we don't know for certain yet who's going to be the Douche.

Edited November 13, 2011 by SuperStingray

[turbojet]

I agree with all of this except the last sentence. A big part of why Obama won the first time is because he was able to successfully combat voter apathy (charisma and all that) among groups of people who by default feel disenfranchised towards the federal government (and especially Republicans). Without that turnout of of people that I think he almost certainly won't get this time, any reasonably charismatic Republican could pull off a win if Obama's fortunes continue to worsen in terms of public opinion.

There is political charisma and then there is Flavor Flav charisma. Sure, Cain can jig like no other, but do not compare it to the erudite affluence of Obama. Cain does not stack up at all with Obama and such simple thinking should be shot in the face.

Would Cain be some miracle saving throw for the blacks/minorities/what have you? Absolutely not. But will Obama see the votes from minorities/young people/whatever that he did the first time? I don't think so. Basically, I don't think either candidate would end up with a decisive advantage in those demographics, because I think those demographics will go back to being apathetic.

First thing with this is that African Americans have always and I mean always had high participation rates in elections. Even prior to Obama. Sure,voter participation won't be as high as 2008, but when 60% of a base that can vote(don't get me started on disenfranchisement) votes on a regular basis, it might as well be considered that they didn't just vote because I black man was running. 2nd, 18-24s do not vote. They never have. They might with the Occupy groups forming, but with past experiences and records show that they are so insignificant that it doesn't even matter. You can't compare that demographic with African Americans who have extraordinarily high voter participation. Finally, there is no way Cain can ever shed this scandal off or his poor handling of it. The media won't drop it and I don't expect them to. Cain does not stack up well with Obama at all.

[Nepenthe]

If giving my parents their civil rights is vilification, I don't want to imagine what the fuck the Southern Strategy was. This is completely ignoring the fact that the reddest states tend to house some of the most racist halfwits anyway. I live in Georgia, the state where we ousted a competent govenor because he took a stand against the damned confederate flag. Democrats villify blacks. Please.

[Stacy]

I could not possibly be happier with the candidates of the Right.

Oh really what about Michelle Bachmann?

I'll be damned if this homophobic Evangelist psycho gets into the White House!

[Nepenthe]

She's hardly a front runner anyway. She somehow crossed the threshold that even neocons have for crazy.

[SuperStingray]

I know there's that scandal with the sexual harassment, but hey, if we can let the whole Bill Ayers and Reverend Wright scandal pass over our heads, why not that as well?

Maybe because those weren't scandals so much as conspiracy theories pulled out of the media's ass? But yeah, I guess sex scandals DO tend to blow over. I mean, we let Bill Clinton slide, didn't we? OH WAIT.

And it doesn't help that he unprofessionally referred to Nancy Pelosi as "princess" in the middle of all this like, acting like a piece of patronizing scum.

It is rather typical; the Democrat party has quite a history of vilifying black people.

If I facepalmed any harder my brain would have splattered on the wall behind me. They were the party of the goddamn Civil Rights Movement and just recently, in fact, they elected a black president. Both parties have their racist constituents, but I can't remember the last time the Republican Party did anything beneficial for ANY minority group.

Edited November 16, 2011 by SuperStingray

[turbojet]

I usually ignore your comments, but today, I feel like being an asshole.

Really? Is Herman Cain, the most intelligent candidate in American presidential politics, going to win? Maybe. If he does, Obama is fucking screwed.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the most intelligent candidate in the election!

I could not possibly be happier with the candidates of the Right. I know there's that scandal with the sexual harassment, but hey, if we can let the whole Bill Ayers and Reverend Wright scandal pass over our heads, why not that as well?

Bill Ayers is am English Professor in Chicago who also won the city award for being an outstanding citizen. Yes, he was a domestic terrorist, but to be fair, his brand of terrorism didn't kill anybody, but his own group who were conducting the act to begin with. His only connection with Obama is participating in community uprising events. Obama addressed this numerous times during the election until McCain brought it up on National Television in the debate where Obama swatted it down like a nat.

As for Reverend Wright, it really isn't a scandal for a black man to call American racist, and compared to the likes of conducting quid pro quo in the likes of fellatio. I'm black and I hear that shit all the time from other black people. As someone mentioned, Clinton was impeached for what he did. Cain is trying to get nominated.

It is rather typical; the Democrat party has quite a history of vilifying black people. Maybe the harassment scandal will scare those racist Republicans into avoiding him. Wait, nope, Cain is still leading the polls.

Really?

Fuck yeah.

Okay, let us do the history. 1865-70, the 3 amendments where passed to free African Americans, give them the right to vote, and ensure Equality within the states. What happened to 1880? 1890? 1900? 1910? 1920? Do you know? Not a goddamned came out of it. Discrimination was rampant and Jim Crow was still in effect. As a matter of fact, around the tie of the Great Depression, African American voters(if they could even vote) voted for FDR, a Democrat. It started to get muddied up around the time of Eisenhower. In the end, Kennedy died, and Lyndon B. Johnson, a Southern Texas Senator who has been nothing, but opposed to Civil Rights legislation and very much pro segregation, said the words of the Civil Rights Movement. Yes, Martin Luther King was a registered Republican, but he endorsed Johnson (although Johnson paid him back with having J. Edgar Hoover investigate him). However, even then, the black vote wasn't nowhere near as polarizing as it is today. Why? Because Richard Nixon, a republican, started a program called Affirmative Action. So where or where did we see the difference? Ronald Wilson Reagan.

[Stacy]

And there are many black people who would like to see that Confederate Flag stay.

What are you on?

Are you a redneck raised on nothing but Fox News and Nascar?

EDIT: Seirously, for historic reasons maybe but I am sure most hate it when some redneck waves the damn thing in their face being proud of the side that supported slavely and greed.

Edited November 16, 2011 by BW199148

[Flyboy Fox]

I can't help feeling that during an era where we have a black PUSA and the public mood is latched onto a different set of issues, namely homosexuality and women's rights regarding pregnancy, the Republican party has taken a sudden affinity to black people to push a "look, we're tolerant! We respect diversity!" agenda. This way they (some of their candidates) can really let lose on the issues they strongly oppose, utilising the "We're not bigoted; we have black friends!" card. And if there are a subset of strongly vocal black republicans, I can only imagine that they're largely motivated by the desire not to become a target again themselves and by the sudden shelter afforded to them right now. Call me a cynic, but I honestly cannot take seriously the notion that the Republican party is less racially bigoted at core than the Democratic party.

[Tornado]

Saying the Confederate Flag is purely a representation of slavery is no different from saying the Swastika is purely a representation of Naziism.

[Stacy]

Saying the Confederate Flag is purely a representation of slavery is no different from saying the Swastika is purely a representation of Naziism.

But if have a Nazi flag in Germany you get arrested but if wave around a Confederate Flag in Flodria its 'A' okay.

The Confederates lost what is their to be proud they were lazy greedy bastards that relied on slaves to do all their work. Confederates helped spawn the KKK how can you be proud of that?

Edited November 16, 2011 by BW199148

[Nepenthe]

Democrats gave your parents your civil rights? If I recall correctly, the Republican majority overrode a Democratic filibuster to pass both the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

In the past, Democrats treated African Americans like animals. Then suddenly, they started treating them like symbols. That's where we're at right now. Meanwhile, the Republicans have been kindly treating them like actual human beings.

And there are many black people who would like to see that Confederate Flag stay. It symbolizes southern life and culture, not of the past, but of the present. There is absolutely nothing inherently racist about the confederate flag.

Democrats passed the Civil Rights act under Johnson. A mix of both Democrats and Republicans initiated and ended the filibuster. But- and here's the big but- with the passage of the Civil Rights Act and other acts to initiate desegregation and give African Americans their voiting rights, racist Southern Democrats turned away and became affiliated with the Republican party instead. You also keep failing to conveniently explain away the GOP's Southern Strategy, essentially a ploy to take advantage of racist paranoia to secure the South as a viable voting block, an unfortunately successful tactic considering how the South votes nowadays, which is really the core reason why most blacks couldn't give any less of a damn about the GOP. Please don't incite the apology given by Melhman as irrefutable evidence that the GOP and its constituents are suddenly all a big, huggy tolerable bunch. Also--

Wait, wait, wait... You're actually defending the confederate flag as not having any racist connotation whatsoever? Really, dude? Wow. I'm at a loss for words.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Nepenthe

[Tornado]

But if have a Nazi flag in Germany you get arrested but if wave around a Confederate Flag in Flodria its 'A' okay.

The former shouldn't be the case regardless, so I reject your assertion that the latter is "wrong."

The Confederates lost what is their to be proud they were lazy greedy bastards that relied on slaves to do all their work. Confederates helped spawn the KKK how can you be proud of that?

I can tell already that this is going to be a reasoned debate with someone well-informed about the subject in question.

Here's a hint: The Confederate flag in the overwhelming majority of modern uses does not represent an advocate of slavery anymore than this:

Represents the oppression of people the world over for hundreds of years during Colonialism. And, to be perfectly frank, the Confederate flag wasn't even strictly used to advocate slavery 150 years go.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Tornado

[Flyboy Fox]

People waving the confederate flag are celebrating slavery as often as children singing Ring Around the Rosie are cheerfully celebrating the Boubonic Plague.

To nitpick, this isn't even an accurate analogy, given that Ring Around The Rosie actually has no connection at all to the Bubonic Plague and never has done. Whereas the Confederate flag, no matter what you believe about its current usage, does have a historical tie to certain racial sentiments.

http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.asp

[Nepenthe]

Your point about the confederate flag? That's also inaccurate. It got a resurgence in popularity during the 50s as a symbol of the fight against desegregation. The flag has also been used by the KKK, Neo-Nazis, and other racist/separatist groups. The fact that some people who are racial minorities may actually like the flag does not suddenly remove its racist connotations; that's an extremely dishonest point there, about on par with "some of my friends are black."

[Dark Qiviut]

And there are many black people who would like to see that Confederate Flag stay.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Dark Qiviut