The General American Politics Thread

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They want to be free- as long as everyone shares their religion and bends over for Sharia Law. Right. Democracy, my friend. Israel supports it. The Palestinians don't. Pick a side.

Get some common sense first and some actual knowledge on what the you're talking about, and we'll think about it.

Then again, you're probably just trolling and I'm not doing any favors feeding you.

[Patticus]

One could argue that Palestine's acceptance of Sharia Law, and indeed the entire extremist movement of Hamas, is actually an equal and opposite reaction to the oppression inflicted upon the Palestinian people by the Israelis. If the pressure is removed, their economy recovers they obtain full statehood, well, I'd say a freer people they will be. They're already democratic... but the problem of their borders and illegal settling by Israelis continues, and peace cannot be assured until Israel stops eating into Palestine; in fact, until Israel retreats some, and lets go of the stranglehold it has on Palestine's resources, peace will never be guaranteed.

Anyway, we're getting off-topic.

Mitt Romney has tried to make a $10,000 bet with Rick Perry over a point regarding healthcare.

The Republican frontrunner Newt Gingrich came under sustained fire throughout a two-hour televised debate in Iowa on Saturday night as rivals ranged wide over his views on the Middle East, his work as a lobbyist and his sex life.

With 24 days left to the Iowa caucus and only one more scheduled debate left, time is running out for Gingrich's rivals to cut into his double-digit poll leads.

His main rival, Mitt Romney, had a poor night. When everything else about this debate is forgotten it will still be remembered for Romney's extraordinary bet with Texas governor Rick Perry over a point about healthcare.

Romney, who is worth between $190m and $250m (between £121m and £160m), bet Perry $10,000 he was wrong, a challenge Perry turned down. Spin doctors for Romney's rivals were quick to point out that the $10,000 line would harm him with voters, consolidating his reputation as being very rich. Few in Iowa, even if they were sure of a point, would dream of betting such an amount, one of Perry's spin doctors said.

Gingrich escaped unscathed from the barbs and may even have strengthened his position with a performance that was composed and relaxed. At times in earlier debates Gingrich has been grumpy, but a relatively soft version turned up last night.

The closest he came to losing his temper was when Romney, his main rival for the party nomination to take on Barack Obama next year, was asked what the main differences were between the two. Romney returned to his criticism that Gingrich was a career politician while he had spent his "life in the private sector".

Gingrich, the former House speaker who has a reputation as a punchy debater, replied that Romney would have been a career politician for the last 17 years if he had not lost his bid for the Senate. "Let's be candid. The only reason you didn't become a career politician is you lost to Teddy Kennedy in 1994," Gingrich said.

The latest poll in Iowa has Gingrich on 33%, Romney 20%, Ron Paul 17%, Perry 9%, Michele Bachman 7%, Rick Santorum 5% and Jon Huntsman 1%. Huntsman was the only one not present, speaking instead at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire, the next contest after Iowa.

Perry, who has fought a disastrous campaign so far, had his best debate night. Although low in the polls, he is planning to spend almost every day between now and 3 January in Iowa, other than a break for Christmas, and has millions of dollars to back his final push.

In the spin room afterwards, Romney's spokesman Eric Fehrnstromm laughed off the $10,000 bet, saying it was like a family member jokily betting $1m.

Bachman, Santorum and Paul were left as bystanders for much of the night.

In previous debates Gingrich was often on the sidelines, carping at the press for trying to create artificial divisions between the candidates, a line that went down well with Republicans. But his new eminence in the polls made him the target for most of the debate.

Bachman stood by her remark that he was a crony capitalist for taking money for lobbying, and Paul backed her up, also standing by his remark that Gingrich was a serial hypocrite.

Gingrich is three times married, after two affairs, having asked his second wife for divorce as she was in hospital recovering from a cancer operation. Perry, without naming Gingrich, said he had only one wife and had taken a vow to God – and that "if you cheat on your wife, you will cheat on your business partner … or anyone for that matter".

The former speaker said he had made mistakes in his personal life and had had that discussion with God.

Romney raised Gingrich's remarks on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, describing as "incendiary" Gingrich's claim that Palestinians were an "invented people". Gingrich said it was historically true and that they had been part of the Ottoman empire. He said he would tell the truth and accused Romney of being timid.

Gingrich said the Palestinians were still firing rockets at Israel – which is true – and said they included wild antisemitic smears in their schoolbooks paid for by America – a charge that was once true but which Palestinians say is no longer the case.

[TheGerkuman]

Pat, do you mind formatting your post better? I can't read it without having to highlight it.

Anyway, as I said before I hope Newt doesn't win, because him being the next president scares me. But I have no idea how this is going to turn out.

[Patticus]

Pat, do you mind formatting your post better? I can't read it without having to highlight it.

I write in paragraphs with correct spelling and proper grammar. I don't understand what more you could want from me.

Quoted for the new page...

Mitt Romney has tried to make a $10,000 bet with Rick Perry over a point regarding healthcare.

The Republican frontrunner Newt Gingrich came under sustained fire throughout a two-hour televised debate in Iowa on Saturday night as rivals ranged wide over his views on the Middle East, his work as a lobbyist and his sex life.

With 24 days left to the Iowa caucus and only one more scheduled debate left, time is running out for Gingrich's rivals to cut into his double-digit poll leads.

His main rival, Mitt Romney, had a poor night. When everything else about this debate is forgotten it will still be remembered for Romney's extraordinary bet with Texas governor Rick Perry over a point about healthcare.

Romney, who is worth between $190m and $250m (between £121m and £160m), bet Perry $10,000 he was wrong, a challenge Perry turned down. Spin doctors for Romney's rivals were quick to point out that the $10,000 line would harm him with voters, consolidating his reputation as being very rich. Few in Iowa, even if they were sure of a point, would dream of betting such an amount, one of Perry's spin doctors said.

Gingrich escaped unscathed from the barbs and may even have strengthened his position with a performance that was composed and relaxed. At times in earlier debates Gingrich has been grumpy, but a relatively soft version turned up last night.

The closest he came to losing his temper was when Romney, his main rival for the party nomination to take on Barack Obama next year, was asked what the main differences were between the two. Romney returned to his criticism that Gingrich was a career politician while he had spent his "life in the private sector".

Gingrich, the former House speaker who has a reputation as a punchy debater, replied that Romney would have been a career politician for the last 17 years if he had not lost his bid for the Senate. "Let's be candid. The only reason you didn't become a career politician is you lost to Teddy Kennedy in 1994," Gingrich said.

The latest poll in Iowa has Gingrich on 33%, Romney 20%, Ron Paul 17%, Perry 9%, Michele Bachman 7%, Rick Santorum 5% and Jon Huntsman 1%. Huntsman was the only one not present, speaking instead at a town hall meeting in New Hampshire, the next contest after Iowa.

Perry, who has fought a disastrous campaign so far, had his best debate night. Although low in the polls, he is planning to spend almost every day between now and 3 January in Iowa, other than a break for Christmas, and has millions of dollars to back his final push.

In the spin room afterwards, Romney's spokesman Eric Fehrnstromm laughed off the $10,000 bet, saying it was like a family member jokily betting $1m.

Bachman, Santorum and Paul were left as bystanders for much of the night.

In previous debates Gingrich was often on the sidelines, carping at the press for trying to create artificial divisions between the candidates, a line that went down well with Republicans. But his new eminence in the polls made him the target for most of the debate.

Bachman stood by her remark that he was a crony capitalist for taking money for lobbying, and Paul backed her up, also standing by his remark that Gingrich was a serial hypocrite.

Gingrich is three times married, after two affairs, having asked his second wife for divorce as she was in hospital recovering from a cancer operation. Perry, without naming Gingrich, said he had only one wife and had taken a vow to God – and that "if you cheat on your wife, you will cheat on your business partner … or anyone for that matter".

The former speaker said he had made mistakes in his personal life and had had that discussion with God.

Romney raised Gingrich's remarks on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, describing as "incendiary" Gingrich's claim that Palestinians were an "invented people". Gingrich said it was historically true and that they had been part of the Ottoman empire. He said he would tell the truth and accused Romney of being timid.

Gingrich said the Palestinians were still firing rockets at Israel – which is true – and said they included wild antisemitic smears in their schoolbooks paid for by America – a charge that was once true but which Palestinians say is no longer the case.

[Flyboy Fox]

I write in paragraphs with correct spelling and proper grammar. I don't understand what more you could want from me.

It's the fact that your quoted text is black and doesn't show up well against the blue Sonical background.

[TheGerkuman]

I probably should've said that. I keep assuming that everyone's using Sonical... ;

[Patticus]

If you're having problems with the skin and text readability then you need to switch skins. I'm using IP.Board because it's much easier on the eyes and much easier to read. Now if we could get back to the topic...

[Tornado]

If you're having problems with the skin and text readability then you need to switch skins. I'm using IP.Board because it's much easier on the eyes and much easier to read. Now if we could get back to the topic...

Or, you could, you know, spend 5 seconds and strip the formatting from the text that you posted so it is readable in all skins.

Anyway, since when is being a "career politician" a good thing? Especially when you are known to be as corrupt as Gingrich is?

Edited December 13, 2011 by ChristmasJack

[Stacy]

People can't have the freedom to refuse freedom without having freedom in the first place. Isn't that a paradox? And I'm not saying that people don't have the right to refuse freedom. All I'm saying is that exercising that right seems contradictory. While freedom is a general term, when you get down to brass tacks it is easily distinguishable from bondage and tyranny.

What is 'freedom'?

"Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains".

Edited December 13, 2011 by BW251211

[Patticus]

Anyway, since when is being a "career politician" a good thing? Especially when you are known to be as corrupt as Gingrich is?

It can't be any worse than being a career politician in denial like Mitt Romney, who has run for Senator, Governor and twice for President.

[Stacy]

Please don't take this the wrong way I like America and respect Americans but why do some American (mainly righ-wing) dictate their freedoms onto others even their fellow Americans its most annoying.

That's what I hated about Regan and the Bushes, its was always freedom this and freedom that, well maybe some people don't want your 'freedom' because they have their own 'freedom'.

They really missed the point didn't they Charile?

[SuperStingray]

People can't have the freedom to refuse freedom without having freedom in the first place. Isn't that a paradox?

Edited December 14, 2011 by SuperStingray

[turbojet]

Anyway, since when is being a "career politician" a good thing? Especially when you are known to be as corrupt as Gingrich is?

[Patticus]

The term 'career politician' is an oxymoron in terms of presidency. One has to be involved in politics in order to have a shot of winning. It is just a dirty word that the ignorant public uses to associate with government workers and opposing politicians use against their rivals as a means to sway the public. It has absolutely no bearing at all when you consider that one must be perpetually involved in the process for any branch of government.

In summary, if one is running for president, he/she is most likely a career politician.

I thought that career politicians were in the job for the power, prestige and for (or because of?) the contacts related to the post(s). They're in it for selfish reasons while others are in it because they actually believe that they can improve the country they live in, improving their fellow countrymen's lives. You can be involved in politics for long periods and not be a career politician, just like you can get into it for/from selfish gain and be one for only a short time before some outside reason causes you to bow out.

Although that makes very little sense now that I've written it down... maybe it is all just slurs.

[SuperStingray]

Some pride is necessary to be a politician; you wouldn't even run for office if you didn't think your policies were the right direction for the country. The problem lies more in that we too often look at the surface more than the substance in our leaders. The political stage should be as much a back and forth of ideas between candidates as a competition to see who's best to get the job done, not a popularity contest to see who can shake the most hands and kiss the most babies. That's the point when pride becomes the enemy and sadly, that's pretty much what the debates are at this point.

Edited December 14, 2011 by SuperStingray

[Stacy]

I am sure must of you have see this either on TV or online, as you know I have be quite outspoken about Rick Perry lets just say I have more respect for my current hard lumpy constipated turds than I do for this douchebag!

Edited December 15, 2011 by BW251211

[Flyboy Fox]

I already posted this video a page or two back, BW. But yes, it's quite horrible. But he appears to have shot himself in the foot with this and many of his other recent moves. I really don't think he's got much backing left.

[Stacy]

I already posted this video a page or two back, BW. But yes, it's quite horrible. But he appears to have shot himself in the foot with this and many of his other recent moves. I really don't think he's got much backing left.

Sorry its just I can't think why someone would vote for this guy so much so that my strong dislike of Michele Bachmann (Maybe they should get a room?) has been distracted by this bell-end!

[Patticus]

Rick Santorum - Pregnancy via rape is 'a gift', victims should 'make the most of a bad situation'.

What an imbecile. Now, since he's so against abortion in extreme circumstances, what's his stance on condoms? I'll bet he's dead set against them. Let's see now...

As he told CaffeinatedThoughts.com editor Shane Vander Hart in October, “One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is I think the dangers of contraception in this country,” the former Pennsylvania senator explained. “It’s not okay. It’s a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be.”

http://thinkprogress...-birth-control/

Clearly it's only a coincidence that his name can be misread as Sanatorium.

As an aside, Rick Santorum's wife definitely didn't have an abortion in 1996. Definitely.

http://oursilverribbon.org/blog/?p=188

In October, 1996, his wife Karen had a second trimester abortion. They don’t like to describe it that way. In his 2004 interview with Terry Gross, Santorum characterizes the fetus, who must be treated as an autonomous person, as a practically a gunslinging threat, whom the mother must murder in self-defense. Karen has had to justify her decision to save her own life by explaining that if she died her other children would have lost a mother.

Also, that same wife was fucking with... wait for it... an abortion doctor, before she met Santorum. As if that wasn't enough, it was none other than the very same doctor who delivered her as a baby!

http://www.dailymail...ion-doctor.html

You couldn't make this shit up. You really couldn't. And if you could, it'd be laughed out of Dodge for not being realistic enough. As people are saying, Obama could have "At least I'm not Republican" as his tagline and win by a hefty margin*.

*In a sane world that is. In America... maybe not so much.

[Tornado]

Rick Santorum is an idiot (which everyone knew already). True.

Rick Santorum is a Republican. True.

All Republicans are idiots. Perhaps true, but not proven by the above.

I'm sorry, but the logical statement kinda breaks down. Get back to me when hell freezes over and Santorum wins the Republican nomination ticket. Then Obama can actually campaign on the "at least I'm not a Republian" platform.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Tornado

[Patticus]

I wasn't being entirely serious with that last sentence. The tongue was firmly embedded within the cheek, I assure you.

I do find it really quite perplexing, however, how people like Santorum, Bachmann etc expect to win any conservative in America over when they themselves are as far from being conservative exemplars as it is possible to get. They like to hide their debauched lives behind smokescreens of bigotry and religious extremism, pretending that these things somehow make them actual conservatives.

[turbojet]

At one point, I actually thought Santorum was one of the more sane GOP running mates...

Romney is definitely not winning any favors with his bullshit either.

Anybody see the State of the Union last night? Obama straight up ripped a few of my ideas off when it came to industry.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I first learned of Santorum due to the...ahem...interesting slang that was invented based upon his name to protest against his abominable viewpoints. But the more I learn about that man, the more monstrous he seems. Rick Santorum IS a real load of santorum.

WARNING! If you are unaware what the Santorum slang is, DO NOT GOOGLE IT. Not safe for work. Not safe for public viewing.

[turbojet]

WARNING! If you are unaware what the Santorum slang is, DO NOT GOOGLE IT. Not safe for work. Not safe for public viewing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

WARNING! If you are unaware what the Santorum slang is, DO NOT GOOGLE IT. Not safe for work. Not safe for public viewing.

I so want to choke you right now...that did NOT help.

Edited January 25, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic