The General American Politics Thread

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So basically, despite the Trump victory, it's all gonna fall apart anyway for the GOP?

How so? I know a lot of conservatives dislike Trump, but the skeptic in me says they'll try to work this in their favor while they can. And I'm not sure how much damage that might actually cause for folks, but out of sheer caution something tells me that it'll be a bit devastating before things turn around.

That said, you did say that Congress would have an easier time impeaching Trump early in this thread. Is that even with the Republican majority? Because that is really saying a lot.

[KHCast]

It essentially seems like a list saying "don't have any concerns or worries even if you're a minority". I still don't see why it's unreasonable to be concerned about Pence and/or the GOP even if trump doesn't intend to do much shit to groups like LGBT when you are LGBT and the repubs and GOP haven't exactly been bff's with us and having a whole senate and presidency of them isn't really gonna be for that group relaxing.

 

i get its not the end of the world, but that doesn't mean I can't still have concerns for my groups wellbeing and treatment by General society or the government.

[nintega137]

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

I understand that, but it still pisses me off. We claim to be the side of facts and logic, but then we throw that away based on whether or not we "feel" inspired enough to uphold the institutions of progress and the tenants of our democracy and fight back against white nationalism. And all we have to do to do that is simply standing in a fucking line for a few hours and press some buttons on one single day. It's not like we're asking for them to do a laborious job here. I'm right pissed at my so-called progressive friends right now, especially the ones who didn't vote. All talk and no fucking spine to show for it.

 

Ya know I'm feeling the same way right now, though most of my friends don't claim to be progressive or even hate "progressives" as they say. I'm on facebook and every comment is something along the lines of

" Congratulations to Donald J. Trump for the most remarkable winning campaign this world has ever seen. Now for those of you whining about it, that's too bad. He is your next president whether you like it or not. Saying that you are "ashamed to be an American" or "am moving to Canada" are what makes others ashamed to be Americans. That trait needs to be expelled from you immediately. I did not vote for him, but I believe in fair elections. And this election could not have been any fairer. Good night everyone! "

 

" So can we not blame people who didn't vote for Clinton? This might be a shocker to some of you, but not voting for Clinton doesn't mean it was a vote for Trump, especially when you don't live in a swing state. "

 

Everyone tells me that I'm the one overreacting but this isn't just some minor game to me. Sure we will survive, but how is that an excuse for anything? Just because I"m not moving to canada or sweden or whatever? 

[Tornado]

29 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

So basically, despite the Trump victory, it's all gonna fall apart anyway for the GOP?

That's not what I said. The GOP will certainly be able to push through things that are unsavory. They will certainly be able to do cringey shit that they wouldn't be able to do if the DNC hadn't blown the election so badly. Again, I expected them to lose the Senate.

 

But the GOP is not a united voting bloc against gay trans women of color. The Republicans having basically the same makeup that they had two years ago won't be able to turn into the United States of the Fourth Reich just because Trump was elected even if there was a united and reciprocated will in the party to do so; yet already, fucking less than twelve hours after Trump eked out a win, there are people acting as if he personally has the power to amend the Constitution to his liking to get rid of things like a critical press.

 

19 minutes ago, KHCast said:

It essentially seems like a list saying "don't have any concerns or worries even if you're a minority"

You're also the person who has spent the last five hours across multiple threads and status updates acting as if Obergefell has already been thrown out and the end is already nigh, so misreading situations doesn't seem to be a terribly uncommon occurrence.

[KHCast]

Oh no, expressing concern about LGBT rights cause the group in power hasn't really showed favor or acceptance of LGBT people. Yeah, so the problem you're having with that group(LGBT people) having concerns is...? Seriously, if I'm overreacting because of that, call me crazy then. Don't smugly act like nothing problematic will happen with groups like us and it's just in our heads. There are understandable reasons for people worrying.  Nothing is being misread. I haven't said or implied it's the end. However I have posted encouraging people to stay strong and try to stay positive no matter what may happen, and SHOULD something occure that's shitty, fight and do something.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 minute ago, Tornado said:

That's not what I said.

I figured that's what you were implying when you said that the GOP was divided - usually divides mean that things end up falling. My bad if that's not what you meant. ^_^;

1 minute ago, Tornado said:

The GOP will certainly be able to push through things that are unsavory. They will certainly be able to do cringey shit that they wouldn't be able to do if the DNC hadn't blown the election so badly. But the GOP is not a united voting bloc against gay trans women of color. The Republicans having basically the same makeup that they had two years ago won't be able to turn the United States of the Fourth Reich even if there was a united will in the party to do so; yet already, fucking less than twelve hours after Trump eked out a win, there are people acting as if he personally has the power to amend the Constitution to his liking.

Despite the fact that anyone can go on Wikipedia or look at a government textbook to know that's not how our government works...

I figured the main fear regarding that would be the GOP using this win to do something along those lines for such unsavory things and using Trump as a kind of figurehead for them. That may not sound realistic, but surprises have been happening.

So other than that, what do you think will happen throughout all this despite the paranoia going about?

[Tani Coyote]

Michelle's cool and all, but I really don't want this lack of political office that Trump won in spite of to become the trend.

Yeah, she was First Lady, but I don't think that is close to other political offices. I know they take up causes, but it pales in comparison to the wheeling and dealing of actual political positions.

7 hours ago, Candescence said:

Just a question, how likely is it that the GOP will be able to use the "nuclear option" to get rid of the filibuster? The matter of willingness is one matter, but whether they can actually do it is another - I've heard conflicting things about whether they need a simple majority or a supermajority (the latter of which the GOP doesn't and won't have).

They could easily do it. All they need is for the presiding officer to say that there's a possible constitutional issue with the filibuster rules, and the Senate can vote to eliminate filibusters on legislation.

Of course, it's called the nuclear option for a reason. They could use it to their advantage now, but as the establishment Party, they have a decent chance of losing the Senate in 2018.

6 hours ago, KHCast said:

So now people are finally discussing the concerns LGBT citizens have and well...people are essentially telling up to get the fuck over it, say there's nothing to worry about(despite evidence from both Trump and Pence AND the GOP saying otherwise), there's no need to concern about rights being infringed on(lol), and using the ever popular "gay marriage is a states issue" to justify repealing it. Aren't people great. I sure feel better about being gay in a conservative all red country.

The good news is that the seat being replaced is Scalia's, and he was hardly a liberal. Gay marriage passed in spite of his protests.

Barring a shitload of the court resigning and Trump appointing a ton of far right nominees, gay marriage is likely here to stay. The Court minds public opinion, furthermore, and with the amount of support in favor of gay marriage now, I don't think they're too eager to overturn it. Plus they would need a really good reason to say that the previous decision - especially one so recent - was wrong.

Repealing Plessy v. Ferguson, for example, required a lot of logic and reasoning. The segregated schools in the affected area of Brown v. Board were actually fairly equal in spite of segregation. So the argument instead focused on the emotional toll of segregation, how even if blacks had the same exact quality of education or any other service, they would inevitably ask "why am I separate from whites?" The answer of course, was the racial order, and the feelings of inferiority this could foster were grounds to overturn segregation. This is well-documented in black literature from the Jim Crow era: many blacks were saddened or angered when they would sit down at a restaurant only to be told they couldn't be served due to their skin color.

Plus, there is a sizable minority of pro-GOP gay folks; they backed the GOP on the basis of preventing Islamic homophobia from coming to America. If the GOP starts going after them, their support is likely to evaporate. That's what, several hundred thousand people? That could easily break them in one or two states.

Never mind, taking away the marriages of well over a hundred thousand people might just piss them off enough to turn out against the GOP.

Then there's whether President Trump will really care about the issue. He didn't build his campaign on gay marriage. He built it on bringing jobs back from China and preventing immigrants from "taking" jobs. He's likely going to be focused on the economy, not these social issues, and his victory speech reflects that.

On the other hand, if he lets Pence be the power behind the throne, he might have quite a few anti-gay nominee picks. We'll have to see.

5 hours ago, Candescence said:

One major silver lining is that the youth vote (18-25) overwhelmingly supported Clinton.

I really can't wait for 2024, 2028, etc. That's when the senior voter pool really starts to shrink and this country's likely to begin a major shift left.

[KHCast]

Unfortunately the pro-LGBT GOP members don't seem to be loud or able to do much overall in that party. Though it is assuring to know maybe some voice, no matter how quiet, can maybe be heard within that party.

[Tornado]

39 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Oh no, expressing concern about LGBT rights cause the group in power hasn't really showed favor or acceptance of LGBT people. Yeah, so the problem you're having with that group(LGBT people) having concerns is...? Seriously, if I'm overreacting because of that, call me crazy then.

You're overreacting because you're conflating groups of people with differing opinions and different voting background and representing different groups of people with different voting desires as being part of a giant super party of evil who now have the full run of the table because Trump, a non-conservative non-Republican who almost none of them wanted anything to do with less than a week ago and who won primarily by talking about the economy, will be in power.

Someone who won election for a Republican seat in a flip state like Pennsylvania isn't going to make gay marriage a hot button issue to force court packing to try and repeal a Supreme Court decision, even if they personally want it gone. Someone who won election for a Republican seat in New Hampshire isn't going to sponsor making it a crime to use the "wrong" bathroom, even if they personally want it so. Those are political realities, even before you get to the split between Eisenhower-style Republicans, NeoCons and Tea Party candidates. Even before you get to Trump not actually being a Republican and not being for any Republican ideals before deciding he wanted to be president and probably not having them now.

 

Quote

Don't smugly act like nothing problematic will happen with groups like us and it's just in our heads

Don't smugly act like you actually know what is I'm saying when you clearly didn't actually read any of it. It's reasonable to be concerned; especially since the DNC is basically going to implode on itself by the midterms so might not be able to recover; and I even specifically fucking noted one major cause of concern assuming Paul Ryan and his flock continue to control the House. But saying nonsense like "say goodbye to freedom of the press" isn't expressing concerns. It's repeating tumblr or Huffington Post echo chamber foolishness; up there with when Republican talking heads talked about Obamacare leading to death lines and compared its Democrat sponsors to Nazi party members because of it.

 

35 minutes ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

So other than that, what do you think will happen throughout all this despite the paranoia going about?

I have no idea. Trump has no policy going into the presidency that he can actually pass. The GOP has no policy they'd want him to rubber stamp that I'd assume he would be amenable to. The DNC will be in complete shambles, since this election was something they had been dicking around setting up for for 8 years and I have to assume that this was Hillary's last time being the face of it. Other than all of the executive orders he will do to revert Obama executive orders, assuming he even does those since he doesn't have particular plans to replace them, it's a mystery.

[Tani Coyote]

48 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Unfortunately the pro-LGBT GOP members don't seem to be loud or able to do much overall in that party. Though it is assuring to know maybe some voice, no matter how quiet, can maybe be heard within that party.

All a lot of groups need to "do" is turn out or not on Election Day. If a Party urinates all over its base, it can expect damage.

Hillary's "basket of deplorables" comment, for example. While there's no doubt that a lot of racist and sexist sentiment underscores the Trump base, a lot of people had legitimate working class concerns. When she said that, she completely disregarded them. As well-meaning as she was, it seemed to be the same sort of insensitive privilege on her part that Mitt Romney had with his 47% remarks back in 2012.

Yes, a lot of working class interest does favor sexism and racism. But that's because they wrongly assume self-interest is zero-sum and for a white worker to win, a black worker must lose. Hillary would have done better to have targeted this misconception, rather than the people who have it. While she didn't say all Trump supporters were bad, her blanket comment no doubt alienated a lot of working class Americans who were favorable to Trump, because it implied that if they liked him (even if they were voting Democrat), they might just be bigots. Lo and behold, enough people get peeled away to give Trump handy victories across the Rust Belt. Clinton's shady reputation (deserved or not), combined with protest votes, was enough to do her campaign in at that point.

It all boils down to rhetoric. Even if someone is a racist, it's generally not a good idea to call them a racist. Success in debate is much more possible when you avoid any terms that trigger emotional defense mechanisms. We are emotionally fragile creatures, and this needs to be planned for if one is planning on running for public office.

But, back to gay Republicans. With how increasingly fringe opposition to gay marriage has become, it is increasingly not worth the cost of alienating LGB voters. The GOP is instead moving towards compromise options, whether states' rights or "religious liberty" in employment and services. Then you have the fact that Kasich drew applause when he said he attended a gay wedding; the GOP base is changing. While it's not outright approval, the GOP is steadily moving towards leaving marriage as a personal choice. Those people who disown gay children are dying out.

Yes, the platform calls for repealing the gay marriage decision, but Hillary Clinton was calling for a no fly zone over Syria. It's all posturing, never mind the fact Trump needed to court the religious right in the Party to reunify it.

[KHCast]

It's better than repealing same sex marriage, though still, using religious freedom as a means to discriminate, deny service or work employment for someone because of their sexuality or color is still kinda a shitty ideology. Not the best compromise imo. Same with giving states power of these issues, as many states could potentially choose non-progressive or anti policies, and even have done so in the past when given reign over groups like that. (see civil rights era, and before same sex marriage was legalized)  I mean it's basically a choice of getting your finger cut off or getting stabbed in the eye. I'll loose a finger to keep my sight, but still suck.

[Mad Convoy]

11 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Unfortunately the pro-LGBT GOP members don't seem to be loud or able to do much overall in that party. Though it is assuring to know maybe some voice, no matter how quiet, can maybe be heard within that party.

In the GOP, for all the progress made, there's still strong social pressure not to publicly express support for homosexuality, as many of the big names oppose it to some extent and the GOP's primary demographic tends to be in conservative Christian areas where homosexuality is also heavily stigmatized. But their votes don't necessarily reflect their words (or lack of words), which might enable them to shoot down any attempts at ending marriage rights for homosexuals. Plus, like Tornado said, there is a slow turnaround.

Though Trump hasn't based his platform in LGBT+ issues, his VP Pence seems to be very anti-gay and has tried to pass anti-gay legislation in the past. He failed then, but as vice president he has more authority now-- and if he's a strong enough influence on Trump's decisions, or lord forbid ends up using Trump as a puppet, we could be in big trouble as he definitely will use his position to try to eliminate gay rights.

Abortion is definitely a big concern though, as the GOP seems to be very against it. How far the government will go, however, I do not know. There have been speculations that abortion wouldn't be permitted even in cases of miscarraiges or cases where the baby had died in the womb, but while not being trained to abort properly and thus having very few doctors skilling enough to deal with those cases might be a side effect of banning all abortion, I doubt the GOP would intentionally go that far. Besides, while there's a small chance an exception might not be granted in cases of rape, incest, etc. those cases seem to be the only areas that pro-lifers and pro-choicers can agree that an abortion is justified in (especially when young girls are involved). Science is a worry though-- a lot of modern gene therapy, regerative tissue therapy, etc. involves embryonic stem cells because as of now they are the most versatile form of stem cell available. Not being able to use embryonic stem cells due to nationwide legislation against it could set the US way back in terms of scientific progress, and considering that the religious right generally holds modern science in high disdain, its unlikely that they will consider the scientific impact of banning the removal of any cells from the womb no matter what unless its an emergency or the result of non-consensual sex.

Another big concern is the people that Trump has just empowered. Russia just got rewarded for hacking computers and spreading lies in the name of Trump-- I do expect them to crop up again in future elections as a result. White supremacists and misogynists just got validated too-- even if presented with data that indicates that Clinton won the popular vote or that most young people prefer Clinton, they'll still hold up this election as proof that they are the majority and in the right. That could lead to even worse violence and crimes from them in the future. Granted, the effect could very well be temporary-- especially if Trump doesn't live up to his big promises-- but if somebody winds up seriously injured or, worse, dead, the former could take years for the unfortunate victim and his/her loved ones to recover if full recovery ever happens, and there are no take-backs for the latter no matter what.

Though I wonder if Trump screwed himself with his big promises of reform and change. He has a lot of people counting on him to fulfill their desires-- to build the wall, to destroy ISIS once and for all, to deport, deport, deport Arabs and Hispanics, to revive dying industries. And many of them, like the wall and the revival of dying industries, are completely unrealistic and unlikely to happen in eight years, let alone 4. If Donald Trump attempts any of those things or is successful, he could jeopardize the entire country, if not much of the world's, economies and completely alienate his less extreme supporters and USA's allies-- which would cause him to lose support. But if he doesn't attempt any those things or isn't successful enough, the extreme side of his support base or the side that is counting on him to revive their industry of choice will feel very betrayed-- and all their anger and spite that was key to getting Trump into the presidency in the first place would be turned on him in a heartbeat. Not to mention that he can't make claims to being a political outsider after four years in the oval office, so that gimmick will inevitably pass as he settles in. If he doesn't play his cards perfectly, with a perfect balance between keeping his promises enough to satisfy the extremists and not going too far and alienating the moderates and his allies, he could very well put himself in a catch 22 situation and screw over his chances of reelection, if not the Republican majority in Congress come 2018.

[KHCast]

https://thinkprogress.org/trump-pence-transgender-students-aa32ee93cdb7#.xrzr908yp Yeah pence is definitely the one to keep an eye on for sure. He seems to have convinced Trump on a few of these, but I don't think he's outright using him as a puppet. We'll have to see

[Tani Coyote]

States Clinton won: CO, NM, NV, OR, MN, NH, CT, VA

States Trump narrowly won (by 12-68,000 votes): WI, MI, PA

If all these states passed the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC) prior to last night, we would be looking at President-elect Clinton right now. The NPVIC is an agreement between states to give their electoral votes to the national popular vote winner (which was Clinton). Two of the last five elections have had a winner who had the most electoral votes but not the most popular votes.

Right now, the NPVIC has been passed in enough states to cover about 30% of the electoral vote. Once the states that have signed it control 50% of the Electoral Vote, the new rules go into effect.

For more information on the NPVIC agreement and how the current system unfairly favors certain states: http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/written-explanation

To send a pre-written message to your legislator in support of the NPVIC:

http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/tell-your-legislators-support-national-popular-vote

Really, if you were a Hillary Clinton or Gore supporter, this is for you. The message legislator option is easy; just enter your ZIP, send the pre-written message (you can alter it if you want; I altered mine to specify the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact so my legislator would know what I was referring to), and it goes to your state legislators. Read: the people running your state's government, not Congress. This is a way to get around the Electoral College without a federal amendment.

Before you think your opinion doesn't matter, remember that a lot of people probably thought that last night.

[Mad Convoy]

That's an interesting idea. Problem is, I'm sure the legislators see online petitions all the time. How will this one stand out as one that should be prioritized? Unfortunately, it probably won't. It makes more sense to do something that requires a bit of effort, like handwriting a letter or making a Youtube video.

(I might actually do the former, as the website you linked provides contact information for local legislators so I figure it might be worth a shot even if they don't respond. I don't think the new plan is necessarily perfect-- it requires a lot of cooperation from all states and will invariably favor densely populated regions, but I think that's at least less arbitrary than the states the current electoral college favors and will do a better job at reflecting the opinion of the people rather than reflecting an outdated system.)

[Tani Coyote]

1 minute ago, Mad Convoy said:

That's an interesting idea. Problem is, I'm sure the legislators see online petitions all the time. How will this one stand out as one that should be prioritized? Unfortunately, it probably won't. It makes more sense to do something that requires a bit of effort, like handwriting a letter or making a Youtube video.

(I might actually do the former, as the website you linked provides contact information for local legislators so I figure it might be worth a shot even if they don't respond. I don't think the new plan is necessarily perfect-- it requires a lot of cooperation from all states and will invariably favor densely populated regions, but I think that's at least less arbitrary than the states the current electoral college favors and will do a better job at reflecting the opinion of the people rather than reflecting an outdated system.)

Politicians don't listen to individual writings, no, but they are more likely to respond if they get inundated with the same subject. It helps if one puts their address in - this confirms the writer is a constituent and could vote for/against them.

It also helps to be working with petitions and the like because it's a concentrated voice.

Overall though, I'm just encouraging any and all dissatisfied with Clinton's defeat to use this. We need to turn this anger into something productive. We're stuck with President-elect Trump, but we can make sure that never again will the GOP win an undemocratic victory.

[Kevin]

Now that I've digested last night's results, I can give my complete though. Before I do, as I was heading to work this morning, I've noticed a very hushed atmosphere. I think everyone is still trying to process what happened last night. It was a very eerie feeling.

Like everyone else, I was stunned at the results. Getting all the "Simpsons did it", "equivalent exchange", etc jokes out of the way, here's my analysis on the whole thing:

-Throughout the campaign, Trump said he could flip the rust belt states. Well lo and behold, he did it! These states haven't gone Republican in years! I can understand why though. Rural voters who've lost their manufacturing jobs were very upset and felt like they weren't being heard. Trump came out and connected with them, hence why they came out in droves to vote for him. You've got to empathize with this group on a technicality that they've gone through rough times. Clinton made a mistake by not reaching out to this group and thought she could hold that "blue firewall" easily.

-Clinton was a terrible candidate. There's no way around it. One thing to keep in mind the areas in the rust belt who went from Trump went for Sanders in the primary. While I'm skeptical he would have beaten Trump, he would have had a good shot at least. It also did help that Clinton brought a lot of baggage with her, was very unpopular, and didn't bring out the excitement Obama did. Many people simply do not like her for various reasons.

-On a side note, the county I live in here in Georgia actually went for Clinton! I had to do a double take because it's considered the most conservative county in the Metro Atlanta area. However, it's a very highly educated area, a demographic Trump did do well in and they went Rubio in the primary, not Trump.

No matter how you look at it, this is an election that's going to be talked about for a long time. Even though I didn't like any of the candidates, one piece of advice I can give to everyone who's upset tonight is that life will move on. People seem to be forgetting that we have a strong system of checks and balances and if Trump does something to really piss off the country, the voters will be giving him an earful about it along with results to boot in the 2018 midterms. If there's a bright spot for the Dems, the incumbent party tends to lose in the midterms anyway. Let's not forget, it's very easy for a candidate to promise everything during a campaign and then not deliver once in office. Obama should teach us a lesson in that.

[Killtank]

I won't lie here, today was rough. I'm glad I didn't languish in misery, but it was hard to really get a spring in my step. I waited with baited breath for hours last night only to see Trump win the election and become our 45th President. You could say I'm crestfallen but alive. I've been fighting that urge to wallow all day, and I'm glad I didn't break down. I still have hope in the democratic process. I still have hope in the American electorate. I'm upset with the fact that we elected the quintessential Ugly American in Donald J. Trump, but this isn't the end. The mid-terms will be here soon enough, and with them, the pendulum might swing back toward the center. I have hope in the future. Even though a part of me is afraid that LGBT rights will be rolled back dramatically, nonetheless, that hope will remain intact. I can't fall back on fear right now. I have to use this time to exercise my faith. I will use such feelings of disappointment for more constructive purposes in the next two to four years. As much as I wanted to wallow today, I'm glad I did not do that. 

[KHCast]

Jesus. Fucking. Christ. My heart just dropped after finally starting to move on

[Nepenthe]

But everything is fine tho'.

[nintega137]

3 minutes ago, KHCast said:

Jesus. Fucking. Christ. My heart just dropped after finally starting to move on

 

Totally just a few isolated incidents. We're all just over reacting. 

[Agie]

Isolated incidents or not, this worries me greatly. I do hope we can show the hate groups that this is unacceptable and that this shouldn't be happening.

[Conando]

ESPECIALLY when their god king actually lost the popular vote. Bigots were definitely going to be emboldened by this, we have to remind them this type of shit still doesn't fly.

[Dizcrybe]

Just now, Conando said:

ESPECIALLY when their god king actually lost the popular vote. Bigots were definitely going to be emboldened by this, we have to remind them this type of shit still doesn't fly.

Trump is still the President-Elect, I doubt it matters either way to them.

[KHCast]

The last one specifically made me cry for a few seconds... This is not gonna be an easy time. I don't wanna find out friends are being already isolated and attacked because people now feel entitled in their feelings about those minorities. Simply expressing your religion, holding hands in public, and being a certain color are now risks again. We're back to 50's for the next few days. Hope you packed a ton of hairspray, leather jackets and brushed up on your 50's lingo.