The General 'Murican Politics Thread

[Patticus]

I'd hope that it'll end up a Roy Moore situation, but one of these days, a completely abhorrent individual will run and win. I mean, if it happened to Trump on the national level, it can happen to any number of regional contenders.

[Tani Coyote]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/18/politics/ocasio-cortez-excludes-media-town-hall/index.html

Ocasio-Cortez, the Progressive who won a famous upset in a primary, is facing flak because she banned the media from two of her town hall events.

She had a simple rebuttal: she wanted her constituents to voice their opinions freely, and a camera in your face can be kind of intimidating. She lets the media attends most of her events. It really is a non-story. This is a huge difference from Trump threatening to revoke press passes or trying to completely delegitimize the media.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/19/politics/steve-bullock-support-assault-weapons-ban-cnntv/index.html

Montana Governor Steve Bullock has come out in favor of an assault weapons ban. He is expected to be making a bid for the Presidency in 2020, which is why his gun control message has changed considerably since the campaign of 2016, where he ran on avoiding universal background checks.

Bullock feels his career serves as a template for Democrats to win just about anywhere in the country, if they are willing to listen to constituents and adjust a few positions. Considering the success of Democrats who are more moderate on gun control (and gun culture) in redder areas, he's onto something.

[Tani Coyote]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/21/politics/susan-collins-says-kavanaugh-roe-v-wade-is-settled-law/index.html

Senator Susan Collins, seen as one of the key votes that could sink Kavanaugh's Supreme Court nomination, has stated he told her that Roe v. Wade is settled law. This is basically her way of saying she will vote yes for him, though she plays the moderate game and says she will not make a decision until after his hearing.

Noteworthy: Chief Justice Earl Warren played the game that he would be a strong conservative. He turned out to be a massive liberal once he cleared confirmation.

In all likelihood, the fate of Roe v. Wade will fall to Chief Justice Roberts. He has helped craft many of the Supreme Court's compromise decisions that gave both sides something they liked. A lot of conservatives hate him for this.

Given the huge margin of popular support for abortion rights in the first trimester, Roberts is likely to uphold the precedent established in Casey, where abortion is legal until the point of viability (where removal of the fetus would not cause an undue burden).

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/21/politics/paul-manafort-trial-jury/index.html

Paul Manafort has been found guilty of 8 charges, but the fact 10 charges were not resolved forced the judge to declare a mistrial.

[Kevin]

I'm calling it now, Trump will pardon both Manafort and Choen

[Bowbowis]

On 8/21/2018 at 4:06 PM, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/21/politics/paul-manafort-trial-jury/index.html

Paul Manafort has been found guilty of 8 charges, but the fact 10 charges were not resolved forced the judge to declare a mistrial.

Quick correction/clarification: A hung jury only results in a mistrial for the relevant charges, the eight guilty verdicts in this case are still valid.

Furthermore, double jeopardy does not apply to mistrials so the defendant can be retried on the other ten charges. Rest assured, my friends Paul Manafort is looking at a very long prison sentence.

[KHCast]

What are the chances Trump attempts to pardon these fucks?

[Patticus]

2 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Quick correction/clarification: A hung jury only results in a mistrial for the relevant charges, the eight guilty verdicts in this case are still valid.

Furthermore, double jeopardy does not apply to mistrials so the defendant can be retried on the other ten charges. Rest assured, my friends Paul Manafort is looking at a very long prison sentence.

While Manafort would probably accept a pardon with open arms, Cohen, apparently, will not.

Quote

President Donald Trump's former lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen will "under no circumstances" accept a pardon from his former boss, Cohen's attorney Lanny Davis said Wednesday.

Cohen pleaded guilty Tuesday in a Manhattan federal court to violating campaign finance laws during the 2016 campaign, including making hush-money payments to two women who claim they had affairs with the president. Cohen implicated the president in his guilty plea, telling the court that he made those payments "in coordination and at the direction of a candidate for federal office."

Asked whether his client would seek a pardon from the president, Cohen's attorney Lanny Davis said "the answer is definitively no" during an appearance on CNN Wednesday morning.

"His answer would be no, I do not want a pardon from this man," Davis said. "Under no circumstances, since he came to the judgment after Mr. Trump's election to the presidency of the United States that his suitability is a serious risk to our country. And certainly after Helsinki, creates serious questions about his loyalty to our country."

...

"Michael Cohen knows information that would be of interest to the special counsel, in my opinion, regarding both knowledge about a conspiracy to corrupt American democracy by the Russians and the failure to report that knowledge to the FBI," Davis said. "Donald Trump violated criminal law. He may not be able to be indicted. That's an unclear question, but there's no dispute here. He directed Michael Cohen to do something that was criminal. Michael did it and admitted to it."

Cohen's decision to flip on the president and implicate Trump in his own guilty plea was a "painful process," Davis said. Cohen could face four years in prison for allegedly paying off women at Trump's request.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/22/michael-cohen-trump-lanny-davis-helsinki-791359

Cohen will not be contesting any prison terms under 5 years. I'm guessing that the potential prison time for what he's done would be far, far longer, and that this is the best he'll ever be able to get from any plea deal. And it looks like he finally wants to do right by his country, which is nice.

Meanwhile, news on the Manafort trial verdict:

If even the avowed Trump fan in the room could see no other recourse than to vote to convict, one must marvel at what must be highly impressive levels of mental inactivity displayed by the sole juror who did not find the evidence overwhelming.

By the by, there would be little benefit to going to retrial over the counts not convicted on (Mueller's team has a week to decide whether or not to go that route), because, due to the nature of the charges and court, they wouldn't add more time for more convictions. He's already had the book jury's thrown at him, now we await the sentencing, which, for a white collar crime like this, could be the rest of his life or, more likely, only a few years behind bars.

[Tani Coyote]

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

What are the chances Trump attempts to pardon these fucks?

I don't put it past him to try.

If he does, I hope that wakes people up to how damned corrupt this regime is and how it really needs to lose big time in November to limit the damage it can do. The GOP can't be allowed to run so many levels of government if it just ignores all the problems Trump has.

[Bowbowis]

53 minutes ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

I don't put it past him to try.

If he does, I hope that wakes people up to how damned corrupt this regime is and how it really needs to lose big time in November to limit the damage it can do. The GOP can't be allowed to run so many levels of government if it just ignores all the problems Trump has.

Why people be upset about Trump using his power to save his allies from unjust prosecution at the hands of the Deep State's witch hunt?

 

Seriously though, if these people didn't jump ship after Trump called Nazis (not hyperbolic, straw man Nazis, mind you, but actual, self professed, goose stepping, jew hating, Hitler heiling Nazis) "Very fine people", I'd say they're beyond reason.

 

1 hour ago, Patticus said:

 

If even the avowed Trump fan in the room could see no other recourse than to vote to convict, one must marvel at what must be highly impressive levels of mental inactivity displayed by the sole juror who did not find the evidence overwhelming.

That she made it through voir dire in the first place speaks volumes. Though whether it says "the prosecution was supremely confident in the strength of their case" or "there were more idiots on jury duty that day than there were peremptory challenges to weed them out" I can't say.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

8 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Why people be upset about Trump using his power to save his allies from unjust prosecution at the hands of the Deep State's witch hunt?

 

Seriously though, if these people didn't jump ship after Trump called Nazis (not hyperbolic, straw man Nazis, mind you, but actual, self professed, goose stepping, jew hating, Hitler heiling Nazis) "Very fine people", I'd say they're beyond reason.

Perhaps we should give these "very fine people" a "very fine recreation" of the Nuremberg Trials when this is over. After all, they want to bring back the past, so why don't we bring back the part where they remember how they lost and were reminded of how much of a piece of trash they were in society?

[Tani Coyote]

23 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Seriously though, if these people didn't jump ship after Trump called Nazis (not hyperbolic, straw man Nazis, mind you, but actual, self professed, goose stepping, jew hating, Hitler heiling Nazis) "Very fine people", I'd say they're beyond reason.

22 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Perhaps we should give these "very fine people" a "very fine recreation" of the Nuremberg Trials when this is over. After all, they want to bring back the past, so why don't we bring back the part where they remember how they lost and were reminded of how much of a piece of trash they were in society?

Replying to both of these because the points I would make are related.

The key thing to remember here is conservatives (and even many liberals) have an expansive idea of free speech. Many of them do not like Nazis, the KKK, the WBC, etc.  but feel it's government overstepping its boundaries to shut them down.

With regards to Nuremberg, the relation here is that many of them have not done anything illegal even though they have shitty views.

Of course, to wrap up, let's take a pessimistic take that hinges on how individualism is bullshit: people's understanding of the world is largely shaped by what they were fed, rather than anything resembling reason. It's why with the trolley problem, most people will opt to change the track to run down the one person, but most would refuse to push a person onto the tracks; most of us were told it is wrong to assault people, but I assume not many of us were told we should not push buttons that inflict harm on people (indeed, there's the famous social experiment on how most of us are obedient when it comes to pushing buttons that hurt people). In the same sort of way, a lot of people have been fed the premise that practically all speech is protected... but by the same token, we are also fed ideas on how Presidents should behave, or on how legal procedure is carried out. Or Hell, on respect due to veterans.

Above all, consider how much of Trump's vote came from people who really just wanted to keep Clinton out. There's talk of the "Trump base" like it's a hive mind, but that ignores that like any coalition, it has a diverse range of people. He might be able to maintain the partisan Republican and white supremacist votes, but the optimistic independents, weak Republicans, and the working poor who bought into his talk of jobs and treating opioid addiction seem to be steadily peeling away.

If they're not peeling away fast enough, odds are it's because they have not yet seen another Republican or Democrat they can throw their lot behind. 2020 could have a lot of surprises for us when this toxic President has to go against a variety of opponents rather than a single woman he has an easy time smearing.

[Tornado]

The GOP is also having a damned time trying to reach out to people who do want to defect from Trump after things like the "both sides" bit while he is still there; and most high level Democrats have been spending all of their time opposing Trump on everything he tries to do (which is perfectly fine) and infighting over who the face of the party will be (suffice to say much less worth it) instead of courting them.

 

I think that the whatever low 30s high 20s approval rating for Trump right now is probably less actual sycophants than when Bush had similar numbers, as a result of some of those people that voted for him being stuck in the cracks.

[Tani Coyote]

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-election-progressives/

In spite of the infighting, the Democrats are gaining ground in practically every district. Now that it's become apparent Trump's right populism was readily sold down the river for more of the same nonsense from the wealthy and religious right of the GOP, progressive Democrats are having a lot of luck turning people towards left populism. They're tossing out Democrats who insist on moderation for moderation's sake as well as holding incumbent Republicans' feet to the fire.

All the GOP can do is scream about leftism, using it as a bogeyman, but the statistics do not lie: over half of Republicans want Medicare-for-All now. Even conservative voters increasingly want a change of pace.

Economic leftism is actually an issue that a lot of people in red districts are on board with, they've just been turned off by social progressive messaging. But progressives are hitting up those districts, focusing more on healthcare, retraining, infrastructure, etc. versus abortion rights or gun control, and it is paying serious dividends. This pattern is particularly true if the person has liberal policies on abortion and gun control.

Of course, that has some party leaders screaming in terror that they're going to get a wave of pro-life, pro-gun Democrats who are also much further left economically, but odds are these newer Democrats will not be able to change the Party too much on guns or abortion. They will, however, absolutely change the corporation-loving tendencies a lot of leading Democrats have.

It was economic populism that gave the Democrats a near-monopoly on the US government for decades. It is not impossible that building a coalition around left populism will restore much of that lost power.

It's also a point that's hard to argue with, considering the US' political system is biased towards districts and states classed as "red." Democrats need to win there to maintain long-term relevance, which means building an alliance with the voters of those areas based on things that are held in common. When your area is economically depressed and struggling with an opioid economic, a liberal coming in with a focus on proposals to retrain workers and expand access to addiction care is probably going to sell more than a do-nothing conservative who just babbles about your common Christianity and immigrants.

[Myst]

Trump 2020

[Tornado]

Video only shitposts aren't allowed. Please put into words why we should vote for Biff Tannen again in 2020.

[Myst]

Well for starters, Trump supporting the white south african farmers who are being brutally murdered and having their land stolen gives him a big thumbs up from me. Video again because I know my previous post will likely be deleted:

Trump doing everything in his power to have American Pastor Andrew Brunson released from a turkish prison is another thumbs up from me.

https://aclj.org/persecuted-church/president-trump-blasts-turkeys-mistreatment-of-pastor-andrew-brunson-as-a-total-disgrace-as-us-government-engages-at-the-highest-levels

Trump bringing jobs back to America & fixing the economy is another win in his favor.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/06/president-trumps-approval-on-economic-issues-has-skyrocketed-according-to-new-poll/

I also applaud Trump standing up for the lives of the unborn.

And let's not forget that Trump was insrtumental in releasing three US prisoners from a North Korean prison AND made steps towards denuclearization in that region.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-44063665

So yeah TRUMP 2020

[Tornado]

It's not Trump's job to solve South Africa's race problems when he does such a great job creating his own in this country; and I hate to break it to you but about the only thing Trump probably cares less about than abortion issues is anti-LBGT legislation.

[Myst]

The South Africa thing isn't just a 'racial issue' people are being MURDERED. 

You should watch the video I posted.

[Bowbowis]

4 hours ago, Myst said:

Well for starters, Trump supporting the white south african farmers who are being brutally murdered and having their land stolen gives him a big thumbs up from me.

If that were actually what was happening I would gladly join Trump in condemning it. Fortunately, that's actually not what's happening. On the contrary, murder rates among farmers are actually down in South Africa. Furthermore, the majority of victims in those cases are black. As for the issue of their land, the South African government has proposed changing their constitution to allow seizure of land as part of a program designed to provide reparations for apartheid. While you can certainly question the fairness and/or wisdom of the program it's hardly the large scale persecution the president implied in his tweet. The whole thing is basically white supremacist propaganda which got picked up by FOX news and subsequently found it's way to the president.

http://time.com/5376453/donald-trump-south-africa-white-farmers/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/08/24/tucker-carlson-walks-back-bogus-south-africa-scaremongering/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2d4063723995

https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/foxs-carlson-stunned-reaction-stories-south-africa-57388702

https://mg.co.za/article/2018-08-23-south-african-politicians-resist-trumps-falsehoods-about-south-africa

 

4 hours ago, Myst said:

Trump doing everything in his power to have American Pastor Andrew Brunson released from a turkish prison is another thumbs up from me.

https://aclj.org/persecuted-church/president-trump-blasts-turkeys-mistreatment-of-pastor-andrew-brunson-as-a-total-disgrace-as-us-government-engages-at-the-highest-levels

It's a worthy cause to be sure, although I'm a bit concerned with Trump's recklessness in dealing with the issue. If Roosevelt's approach to foreign policy was "Speak softly and carry a big stick", Trump's is "Scream loudly about the size of my stick", which I'm afraid will create more problems than it solves.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/08/23/how-missionary-andrew-brunson-landed-center-international-crisis/1066263002/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/29/politics/andrew-brunson-pastor-turkey-detained/index.html

 

4 hours ago, Myst said:

Trump bringing jobs back to America & fixing the economy is another win in his favor.

While it's true that Trump's deregulation has created a marginal increase in positions for unskilled labor he's fighting a losing battle in his attempts to bring back jobs in industries like manufacturing and coal, which are increasingly being phased out in favor of cheaper, safer, and greener alternatives like automation and renewable energy. Furthermore his tariffs are hurting farmers and others who's jobs rely on importing and exporting products (tariffs F.Y.I., are a tax on the people importing foreign goods (i.e. Americans), not on the nations exporting them, as Trump seems to believe). That's not even getting into his tax cuts blowing a hole in the national budget and increasing the wealth gap while only being temporary for the middle and lower classes. Additionally, economies don't necessarily turn on a dime, much of the growth we're seeing now is actually the result of Obama's policies, not Trump's. Basically, Trump's policies are the economic equivalent of a sugar high, it'll feel great for a bit, but, when it comes down, it's gonna come down fast and it's gonna come down hard.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/03/business/economy/july-jobs-report-2018.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-finance-202/2018/07/27/the-finance-202-the-trump-economy-may-seem-strong-but-not-that-strong/5b59f4f81b326b1e64695572/?utm_term=.8d735209cc11

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/business/economy/trump-economy-credit.html

 

4 hours ago, Myst said:

I also applaud Trump standing up for the lives of the unborn.

I very much doubt Trump cares about abortion as anything other than a tool for getting evangelicals to rally behind him. It would in no way shock me if it came out that Trump had forced one of his many mistresses to get an abortion at some point or another. In fact, given the scope of his infidelity and his apparent refusal to use protection, I'd almost be more surprised to learn that he hadn't.

Next time you want to make a point I'd suggest trying to find more, and more reliable, sources to corroborate your claims. All of the sources you've given have either a blatantly pro-Trump agenda or a reputation for being strongly conservative.

[Tornado]

1 hour ago, Myst said:

The South Africa thing isn't just a 'racial issue' people are being MURDERED.

I honestly could not give less of a shit. I'm not going to vote for American presidential candidates on the basis of how well they can police other countries' domestic issues. That would be the case regardless of if the proof you were putting forward to support it was more substantial than a YouTube video using the word "triggered" completely straight faced in the title.

[Myst]

And all the sources you guys use (CNN, MSNBC) are all anti-Trump propaganda. It's funny, Those very people who like to call Trump a nazi use nazi like tatics themselves against him and his supporters. (Maxine Waters openly called for violence against Trump supporters. Conservatives like Alex Jones are censored on the internet like Nazi Germany.)

Look, I was asked to give a reason why I support Trump & I gave it. You can disagree with me all you want, but at the end of the day Trump still has my support. He's doing a fantastic job imo. My only complaint with him is he hasn't built the wall yet and Hillary isn't in prison.

[Tornado]

5 minutes ago, Myst said:

It's funny, Those very people who like to call Trump a nazi use nazi like tatics themselves against him and his supporters.

If you hadn't wandered into this thread and gone full MAGA immediately, you'd probably get the sense that I have very little tolerance for when that is done in this thread either.

 

2 minutes ago, Myst said:

Conservatives like Alex Jones are censored on the internet like Nazi Germany.

Since Alex Jones hasn't been shipped off to a concentration or forced labor camp or simply killed by the government, no. He hasn't been censored on the internet like Nazi Germany.

[Myst]

2 minutes ago, Tornado said:

If you hadn't wandered into this thread and gone full MAGA immediately, you'd probably get the sense that I have very little tolerance for when that is done in this thread either.

 

Little tolerance for what? Difference of opinion? This is a politics thread is it not? Or maybe it should just be relabeled 'The Donald Trump Hate Thread'?

[Tornado]

Just now, Myst said:

Little tolerance for what?

Little tolerance for the thing I literally quoted in your post.

[-Robin-]

John McCain concluded treatment for his brain cancer yesterday, and has passed away today. He was 81.