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The General 'Murican Politics Thread


Tornado

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Like I said elsewhere, unless we get Dem politicians in the House and Senate this year and a Dem president in 2020, all or even most of whom are willing to go "fuck the NRA, fuck the gun nuts, I'm enforcing thorough universal background checks and making it harder to acquire assault weapons whether you like it or not", this is gonna keep happening every quarter, if that.

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It’s especially exhausting when people act as if we’re saying mental health plays no role in this. We’re not saying it’s not a issue that deserves to be looked at relating to violence, however many other countries, with FAR lower shooting averages, also have citizens with mental issues that more than likely have violent tendencies. So there’s simply more to it than simply mental health. Essentially this whole “let’s stop making it about the guns” attitude, needs to end, and we need to realize a lot of factors are going into this. 

Edit: 

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6 hours ago, KHCast said:

We’re already at 18 school shootings

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html

 

How the term is defined before being blindly reported by media outlets is important in the context of the argument.

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“On average, two dozen children are shot every day in the United States, and in 2016 more youths were killed by gunfire — 1,637 — than during any previous year this millennium.”

that’s still a chilling number nontheless to see. That honestly should be the statistic being shared if the 18 school shootings one is wrong 

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I'm not saying otherwise (though that statistic seems strangely vague). But when the figure being branded about by people in Congress who should know better is being calculated by a group that went so far as to include a guy who shot himself at a building that only used to be a school, it comes off as the sort of political football played when the poverty line is defined according to whatever statistics company supports point the politician talking about it is trying the make.

Presumably the "18 shootings" figure was put together to try and shock people into acting, so if "every time a gun is discharged on school grounds it shatters the sense of safety”, (even ignoring the above example where there was no one actually attending the school for seven months to have their sense of safety shattered) what is supposed to be done to protect that in the two examples where police officers' guns were accidentally fired? Or the one where the kid went into the bathroom specifically to shoot himself (where I'm assuming doing it with a gun would be the least of the traumatizing aspects to the other students)?

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I typically stay off this topic but I know a lot on the left will forever blame the guns and such and the right defend the right to them. But honestly the kid had a rap sheet a mile long. Had the police called on him at least 30 time posted guns pointed to his head and made threating commits about doing this in YouTube videos.  even kids had said they saw the listings and I ask why if all that does no one you know do something or admit him to a hospital for help?

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Mueller indicts 13 Russians for interfering with the election:

 

27858400_2378681002151916_66260840623000

Sadly, Oleg Deripaska is not among the indictees. Even so though, Trump, Kushner, et al have got to be feeling pretty damn uncomfortable right now. What happens if any of these people flip in exchange for leniency? They could provide a unique insight into Russian operations, and could well blow the door wide open to more indictments, and even more investigations. Could. I expect that Russian intelligence will be trying to kill or abduct every one of these people. I expect them to succeed in a few cases.

 

Oh, and this potentially huge story appears to have been lost amid yesterday's tragic mass shooting. It may in fact be to do with the above indictments, but I'm not sure:

If evidence of collusion has been uncovered, that's some big news. It won't sway Trump's core of support, I mean nothing really ever will, but it will probably lead to indictments, convictions and many more news cycles that puts Trump on the defensive. Trump himself might have to meet Mueller, too, depending on who's implicated.

Whether Trump or any of his family will go down is another matter, but it should hurt the GOP in the midterm elections, and him in 2020.

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56 minutes ago, Dizcrybe said:


My question is why was someone like that allowed to acquire an AR-15 rifle?

He was flagged multiple times by multiple agencies and never followed up on by any of them, basically.

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Yeah iirc multiple students and teachers told people ranging up to the fbi about him, and they didn’t follow up on it despite everything surrounding this fuck. Funny seeing trump act as if people were being quiet about him.

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3 minutes ago, Tornado said:

He was flagged multiple times by multiple agencies and never followed up on by any of them, basically.

In other words, they didn't do their fucking jobs. This thing could have been stopped... while I think people should have a right to bear arms, I do think those arms shouldn't be fucking automatics. The only two uses for an AR-15 are for target practice and killing people, and there are all kinds of other guns one can use for the former. You need something for home defense, get a revolver. You need something for hunting, get a shotgun/rifle. You want to attack someone, use an automatic. Seriously, there needs to be talks on banning automatics.

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4 hours ago, Patticus said:

Mueller indicts 13 Russians for interfering with the election:

 

27858400_2378681002151916_66260840623000

 

Oh, and this potentially huge story appears to have been lost amid yesterday's tragic mass shooting. It may in fact be to do with the above indictments, but I'm not sure:

Holy crap this whole thing just grows and grows.

Yeah it's not going away. Not for a long time.

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Did you know Trump's twitter banner is a group photo with him giving a thumbs up, in front of an arial photograph of the Florida school where 17 people were killed by a gunman?

A stable genius.

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Trump's weekend goal: gaslight the country. The country was not having it.

 

 

 

 

And he's been going mental on Twitter today...

The POTUS is not mentally competent to hold the office he was regrettably elected to occupy. Days like these, when he launches Twitter tantrums and tirades against everyone but Russia, when he makes last week's tragic loss of life in Parkland, Florida all about him, when he tries to gaslight the country, prove it beyond all doubt.

Trump's approvals have been rising lately. I don't understand why. This crap he's pulling should by rights kill that upward trend.

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I think either people are becoming complicit and used to this environment and so don’t see trump as “that bad” anymore, and were expecting like Armageddon at first, or they’re simply  turned off by current Dems methods of doing things and find themselves agreeing with trump in certain areas politically or many feel or think similarly to what he tweets.(I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s emotionally able to convince people. Again, he’s a salesman.) Or this “make liberals mad” thing is just getting out of hand. I also wouldn't be surprised if trump taking credit for the economy getting better boosted his perception in many people’s eyes.

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On 2/16/2018 at 11:48 AM, Harkofthewaa said:

In other words, they didn't do their fucking jobs. This thing could have been stopped... while I think people should have a right to bear arms, I do think those arms shouldn't be fucking automatics. The only two uses for an AR-15 are for target practice and killing people, and there are all kinds of other guns one can use for the former. You need something for home defense, get a revolver. You need something for hunting, get a shotgun/rifle. You want to attack someone, use an automatic. Seriously, there needs to be talks on banning automatics.

Okay. Hold on. What do you define as an "automatic"?

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So in your personal opinion(cause I see a lot of divide on this) what do you think is the larger fix for School shootings:

Addressing, white supremacy, Toxic masculinity, and white male privilege as the source of this problem and finding ways to dismantle those issues along with pressuring politicians for school funding instead of gun control, and lowering the voting age....or following in the footsteps of countries that have  tighter regulations on guns and less school shootings, and maybe even asking said countries for assistance in how to implement those kind of laws naturally into American culture? Cause I mean gun violence, no matter how you spin in requires guns, and these people go for the same kind of gun constantly and are able to get one no problem. So I definitely believe there’s a issue there. Idk personally I think a bit of both would do wonders for our society. It shouldn’t be a one or the other.

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@Shdowhunt60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_rifle

If it loads via magazine, and if it fires either like an machine gun, or even as fast as you can pull the trigger, than it's really only meant for killing people. Just try going into some establishment with a muzzleloader and try to kill 20 people with it. Point being, guns that are good for killing deer aren't so hot at shooting up a place ( although anythings possible), and vice versa for AR type rifles.

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48 minutes ago, KHCast said:

So in your personal opinion(cause I see a lot of divide on this) what do you think is the larger fix for School shootings:

Addressing, white supremacy, Toxic masculinity, and white male privilege as the source of this problem and finding ways to dismantle those issues along with pressuring politicians for school funding instead of gun control, and lowering the voting age....or following in the footsteps of countries that have  tighter regulations on guns and less school shootings, and maybe even asking said countries for assistance in how to implement those kind of laws naturally into American culture? Cause I mean gun violence, no matter how you spin in requires guns, and these people go for the same kind of gun constantly and are able to get one no problem. So I definitely believe there’s a issue there. Idk personally I think a bit of both would do wonders for our society. It shouldn’t be a one or the other.

To put it bluntly, I don't like solutions that punish basically everyone on the presumption of maybe it will stop mass shootings. Nobody's been able to substantiate evidence to me that gun control has actually made any of these other countries safer, "truck attacks of peace" are still a widespread phenomenon all throughout Europe, and with death tolls that often dwarf the worst of school shootings.

And trying to address cultural underpinnings, improve care for the mentally ill, having more robust measures when it comes to the NICS detecting weather or not someone should be allowed to purchase a firearm, and banning certain firearms for certain features (regardless of their actual impact on their functionality)... These are all abstract and nebulous solutions to a simple and straightforward problem, and I'm really kind of tired of seeing them from both sides of the isle. Make no mistake, I hate the NRA's solutions to the issue almost as much as I hate the anti-gun advocates.

My solution? The problem is, is that you're having people targeting centers of where large groups of people congregate, completely vulnerable, because they simply can. They can go to schools, or movie theaters, or churches, or mosques, and basically have their way with whoever is inside for 30 minutes completely unopposed, because they know nothing can stop them. So, my solution is simple... Have some armed fucking security at these places.

You see that? It's simple. Direct. It actually addresses the issue head-on and meaningfully.

And don't sit there and tell me that it won't, because this has been evidence from the fact that these people always turn tail at the first sign of resistance, they commit suicide at the first sign of meaningful interference, and they deliberately choose their targets to have as little as both as possible. These are universal constants.

And the beautiful part of it? My solution doesn't involve punishing the entire fucking country either.

6 minutes ago, Harkofthewaa said:

@Shdowhunt60 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_rifle

If it loads via magazine, and if it fires either like an machine gun, or even as fast as you can pull the trigger, than it's really only meant for killing people. Just try going into some establishment with a muzzleloader and try to kill 20 people with it. Point being, guns that are good for killing deer aren't so hot at shooting up a place ( although anythings possible), and vice versa for AR type rifles.

According to your criteria, this would include any repeating firearm (including bolt action rifles, lever action rifles, and pump-action shotguns) and any firearm that fires after every pull of the trigger (revolvers). Am I mistaken?

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19 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Nobody's been able to substantiate evidence to me that gun control has actually made any of these other countries safer, "truck attacks of peace" are still a widespread phenomenon all throughout Europe, and with death tolls that often dwarf the worst of school shootings

Do you have stats to back that? Looking at Canada, the UK, Australia, fucking Noway, places with tight gun regulations, give me statistics of the violence being equal or just as bad as America in those countries even without guns. 

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1 minute ago, KHCast said:

Do you have stats to back that? Looking at Canada, the UK, Australia, places with tight gun regulations, give me statistics of the violence being equal or just as bad as America in those countries even without guns. 

So, according to you, the sole reason why America has as much violence as it does is because of guns. Seems legit.

I don't think the burden of proof is on me. Go find me evidence that gun control has reduced violence in these countries.

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Umm...you’re the one saying truck violence  is worse than school shootings and more common in those areas which I’ve brought up. I’m simply asking for a source for that, to which you’re making excuses as to why you shouldn’t need to provide one, and essentially telling me to “do it myself”...

dont know why you’re making assumptions based off me simply asking a question either, but k

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22 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

According to your criteria, this would include any repeating firearm (including bolt action rifles, lever action rifles, and pump-action shotguns) and any firearm that fires after every pull of the trigger (revolvers). Am I mistaken?

You know, you don't really need those for home defense, and revolvers are a common pick for armed robbery because they don't leave casings behind if the robber knows what they are doing, so I'm gonna say yes.

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Just now, Harkofthewaa said:

You know, you don't really need those for home defense, and revolvers are a common pick for armed robbery because they don't leave casings behind if the robber knows what they are doing, so I'm gonna say yes.

So they're automatics because you don't like them. Gotcha.

Any case, you could at least get your facts straight. Revolvers are used because cops used them for the longest time, and the most common target for gun thefts are cops. They're used in homicides because they're cheap and prolific, which is why you see other cheap handguns (hi-points) and standard police issue weapons (Glocks, S&W Shields).

This is actually a pretty easy one to figure out. Go do some research please.

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6 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

So they're automatics because you don't like them. Gotcha.

Any case, you could at least get your facts straight. Revolvers are used because cops used them for the longest time, and the most common target for gun thefts are cops. They're used in homicides because they're cheap and prolific, which is why you see other cheap handguns (hi-points) and standard police issue weapons (Glocks, S&W Shields).

This is actually a pretty easy one to figure out. Go do some research please.

A.) I very much like revolvers, it isn't my fault that they are used for ill.

B.) Cops... since when did I mention cops in my posts? It doesn't matter what Cops use, if anything they should be better armed than civilians, considering their job is to protect said civilians.

C.) Revolvers ( and lever action weapons and the like) fall under Semi-Automatic, which while dangerous, aren't nearly as lethal as automatics proper.

Also, with that tone, if I didn't now any better I'd say you're looking to argue for the sake of arguing.

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