The General 'Murican Politics Thread

[shdowhunt60]

2 minutes ago, Harkofthewaa said:

A.) I very much like revolvers, it isn't my fault that they are used for ill.

Mmm. I'm sure.

2 minutes ago, Harkofthewaa said:

B.) Cops... since when did I mention cops in my posts? It doesn't matter what Cops use, if anything they should be better armed than civilians, considering their job is to protect said civilians.

You're missing the point. I'm stating why criminals use these weapons. Because they steal them from cops. Not because of something in relation to them not dropping shell casings, because if that was such a problem... I don't know, pick up the shell casings I guess??

It's nonsense either way, revolvers have long fallen out of favor for both cops AND criminals for 9mm handguns for a long time now.

2 minutes ago, Harkofthewaa said:

C.) Revolvers ( and lever action weapons and the like) fall under Semi-Automatic, which while dangerous, aren't nearly as lethal as automatics proper.

No they don't. Semi-automatic firearms are specifically firearms that use energy from a fired round to reload itself, thus allowing it to be fired with each pull of the trigger until either a malfunction occurs or the magazine is empty.

That's a very specific definition.

Now, you can have weapons like double-action revolvers, which are functionally similar to a semi-automatic handgun in that there's a mechanism to self-actuate with the pull of the trigger, but that's not the same thing.

And as for it not being as lethal... Well, time has certainly proved that to be the case, but what does it matter in the context of a mass-shooting? Again, you have 30 mins to do what you want. You can still easily kill a lot of people in that time.

2 minutes ago, Harkofthewaa said:

Also, with that tone, if I didn't now any better I'd say you're looking to argue for the sake of arguing.

How do you? I don't know you, you don't know me.

[Dizcrybe]

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

Do you have stats to back that? Looking at Canada, the UK, Australia, fucking Noway, places with tight gun regulations, give me statistics of the violence being equal or just as bad as America in those countries even without guns. 

Hell, I'll give you an example from right here at home (almost literally in my case): Last week, a student from Clarksburg High School in Maryland was arrested for handgun possession and carrying a gun on school grounds. They also found a "list of grievances" against the school and its students.

In short, because of Maryland's own relatively tighter gun laws, police were able to prevent another potential school shooting. Because, as it turns out, when you break the law, you get arrested. Huh. Imagine that.

Also, judging by his posts, I think it's safe to assume that shdowhunt here is, unsurprisingly, not arguing in good faith in the first place.

[shdowhunt60]

13 minutes ago, Dizcrybe said:

Hell, I'll give you an example from right here at home (almost literally in my case): Last week, a student from Clarksburg High School in Maryland was arrested for handgun possession and carrying a gun on school grounds. They also found a "list of grievances" against the school and its students.

In short, because of Maryland's own relatively tighter gun laws, police were able to prevent another potential school shooting. Because, as it turns out, when you break the law, you get arrested. Huh. Imagine that.

Also, judging by his posts, I think it's safe to assume that shdowhunt here is, unsurprisingly, not arguing in good faith in the first place.

Beg your pardon? I don't think you are either. Because literally anywhere else in the country would that student be arrested.

Where in the hell would it be legal for a high-school student to have a firearm on campus?

[Dizcrybe]

13 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Beg your pardon? I don't think you are either. Because literally anywhere else in the country would that student be arrested.

Where in the hell would it be legal for a high-school student to have a firearm on campus?

Alabama. Alabama gun laws allow one to possess a gun on school grounds provided they obtain a concealed carry permit, which you can acquire as young as 18... the same age as Alwin Chen.

Furthermore, that's just if you're 18. If you're 21 or over, concealed carry on K-12 school grounds is legal in seven states (though in Wyoming you have to be a school employee) and at the very least not illegal in Hawaii. In New Hampshire, you don't even need a concealed carry permit. And in 12 states, public college/university campuses are made to allow concealed carry weapons by law.

EDIT: Also, you said "either" in response to my assertion. So you're admitting, then, that you were arguing in bad faith?

Edited February 22, 2018 by Dizcrybe

[SSF1991]

So about that whole "Trump saw a slight rise in polls" thing. Yeah it was only temporary. It's back below 40%, according to CNN's new poll.

Probably a post-State of the Union thing. Because the standard for this man is so low that "he wasn't an asshole for an hour" is all that he needs to get approval back, even for a bit. Oy.

[Dizcrybe]

5 hours ago, SSF1991 said:

So about that whole "Trump saw a slight rise in polls" thing. Yeah it was only temporary. It's back below 40%, according to CNN's new poll.

I knew they would fall back down. It just doesn't add up how his complete bungling of the response to the Parkland shooting would result in high er approval ratings.

[SSF1991]

2 hours ago, Dizcrybe said:

It just doesn't add up how his complete bungling of the response to the Parkland shooting would result in high er approval ratings.

Or his complete bungling of everything.

[KHCast]

 

These people can seriously fuck off. This is just corruption at its finest. Actively attacking and discrediting the victim? Seriously? There’s honestly no way to rationalize or go “to be fair” on this, this is just plain fucking stupidity on the rights side. “Kids organize a event and are passionate about it after seeing friends and family killed?*andalsoshareapoliticalviewIdisagreewith* ACTORS OR UNEDUCATED DEM PAWNS!!!”

 

They say the victims are the entitled disrespectful snowflakes, but seem to bully and be pretty loud and upset at these children for using their voices and rights to the point of being showed up by these kids on respecting people while coming in with a real reasonable argument. That conservatives response is anger and to take offense honestly shows fear to me. Fear of the generation below them not taking their shit. They couldny use the “too soon #thoughtsandprayers” shit to silence this discussion since the students effected are going out and are on the side they disagree with, and so now this is what they’re left with.

edit: 

lol

[Meta77]

19 hours ago, Dizcrybe said:

Alabama. Alabama gun laws allow one to possess a gun on school grounds provided they obtain a concealed carry permit, which you can acquire as young as 18... the same age as Alwin Chen.

Furthermore, that's just if you're 18. If you're 21 or over, concealed carry on K-12 school grounds is legal in seven states (though in Wyoming you have to be a school employee) and at the very least not illegal in Hawaii. In New Hampshire, you don't even need a concealed carry permit. And in 12 states, public college/university campuses are made to allow concealed carry weapons by law.

EDIT: Also, you said "either" in response to my assertion. So you're admitting, then, that you were arguing in bad faith?

Yep we had them. I knew people that had their gun on racks in their trucks or back seat. We never had an issue. Actually what changed in the world . Those guns have been sold for decades. While in the past few years are more acts carried out by young teens. Most whom already seem troubled.  I've seen more talk on the gun at hand on the news than the little demon that commited the acts. ?

.

[KHCast]

So apparently one big criticism with these kids is that they’re “not educated/experienced enough” on the topics of guns and how they put senators like Rubio on the spot with their questions and points raised, was immature and unfair and showed a lack of knowledge. Thoughts on this?

[Dizcrybe]

25 minutes ago, KHCast said:

So apparently one big criticism with these kids is that they’re “not educated/experienced enough” on the topics of guns and how they put senators like Rubio on the spot with their questions and points raised, was immature and unfair and showed a lack of knowledge. Thoughts on this?

Right-wingers looking for a reason not to engaging in an argument about gun control they know they can't win. Next question.

3 hours ago, Meta77 said:

While in the past few years are more acts carried out by young teens. Most whom already seem troubled.  I've seen more talk on the gun at hand on the news than the little demon that commited the acts. ?

Probably because he shouldn't have been able to acquire that type of gun with his mental state.

Let's also remind ourselves of the dismal state of mental health funding in Florida, and Trump's proposed 2019 budget would cut mental health funding nationwide. Oh yeah, and he also apparently rolled back an Obama-era policy that prohibited people with mental illnesses from buying guns. So if you wanna talk about how this is a mental health issue and not a gun control issue, let's also talk about the GOP's complete lack of support for anything related to mental health.

[KHCast]

Well some good and bad news. Good news is trump actually seems to wanna push for tighter background checks regarding guns, so he’s with us on gun control kinda...the bad news is the right wing is jumping at the helm and using this this to slam people by going “see trumps not a paid off nra pawn, another liberal theory debunked!!!”. So we’re gonna have fun hearing conservatives throwing that on people whenever criticism of trump arises.

[Dizcrybe]

I'll believe it when I see it. Till then, I'm assuming it's just PR from someone who finally realizes the deck is stacked against him. How many times has Trump said he's gonna do something, then done the complete opposite, if anything at all?

[KHCast]

 

I take back what I said about trump, good lord.

[KHCast]

https://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

An interesting statistic my friend posted online. Homicide and murder rates apparently rise when gun bans/restrictions are in place in any location in the world. So the idea here is nothing would get solved by America restricting them, and that it’s misinfo when we point to countries like Australia and Norway regarding gun bans resulting in safer places. Thoughts?@Dizcrybe @Patticus @Tornado

[Dizcrybe]

I didn't see anything that mentioned if guns played a part in those homicides committed after those firearm bans.

Furthermore, how do we sure the increase of homicide after the bans has no correlation with population increase?

[KHCast]

23 minutes ago, Dizcrybe said:

I didn't see anything that mentioned if guns played a part in those homicides committed after those firearm bans.

Furthermore, how do we sure the increase of homicide after the bans has no correlation with population increase?

I think the argument is just a more detailed version of “people will find a way”, along with the idea that’s it’s less safe to ban guns whether the size of the population grows or not. My friends of the idea that gun restrictions won’t do shit, and we need to fix the toxic social environment we live in, and I can kinda see where he comes from even if I disagree overall. Gun control could potentially fuck over minorities and make it harder for them to protect themselves with stricter regulations and background checks. Much like a lot of areas in American policy. However I feel at this point, ignoring the damage in America done because of the lax regulations is harming more than anything. Yes mental illness, toxic masculinity, etc are likely factors played in here, but not the soul factor here. The easy accessibility IS a problem. And something needs to be done there

[Patticus]

In my experience, the "bad people will always find a way" argument is used almost exclusively by people (or those supporting them) who have every intention of doing nothing to address the ridiculous free availability of firearms in the US, or any of the numerous underlying socioeconomic causes of violent (including gun) crime.

Yes, why do have any laws at all when someone will only break them anyway? Sounds like reasonable logic. Pfft, not.

The simple fact is that firearms make manslaughter, murder and mass murder readily achievable in ways that other weapons, like machetes (as horrific as their wounds are) don't. Their free availability was brought about by a combination of NRA-bought politicians pushing lax legislation, unaddressed loopholes in the aforesaid legislation, and a veritable patchwork of state-level gun laws that only serve to encourage gun smuggling from lax states to tightly controlled states.

Even if banning them outright (which will only happen as a result of a massive 60s civil rights-style anti-2nd Amendment movement) does lead to some increases in crime, we can abate the need for people to commit those crimes to begin with by tackling other areas, like income inequality, poverty, education, the war on drugs, for-profit prisons & healthcare, etc.

I know that outright banning guns won't happen any time soon though, that the sheer volume of them in circulation would make any ban impossible to enforce for decades, and that bans would allow criminal cartels and home grown ne'erdowells to open up new illicit revenue streams, but we must at least make it as hard as we reasonably can for people to obtain them. For example, eradicate state gun laws, moving necessary legislation to the federal level, and impose the same restrictions on them at that level that we already have on trucks, etc. It boggles the mind that gun owners aren't required to have firearm insurance, for example, or that they aren't put on a national registration database.

The harder they are to easily come by, the less you'll see them used by people who don't want to go to the extra effort of obtaining them.

 

The attitude of the Cult of Guns is deeply unhealthy, and the image of the heroic "good guy with a gun" running in to save the day from the perennial "bad guy with a gun" simply isn't realistic, even if it does happen once in a while. There are no perfect actors, and the combat accuracy of even the NYPD drops 70% from their shooting range averages. Imagine a shoot-out in a school between a good guy and a bad guy, where 30% or less of the rounds fired over the course of several minutes hit their mark. Now imagine kids running for their lives, because the gunman opened up in the hallway as all the kids were milling about, or maybe in a classroom. Children are going to get caught in the crossfire.

 

[KHCast]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-school-armed-20180222-story.html

So this school has given teachers guns and this has been in effect for awhile now and conservatives are using this to justify giving all schools, or a lot of them at least, the same treatment 

[Blacklightning]

10 hours ago, KHCast said:

https://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

An interesting statistic my friend posted online. Homicide and murder rates apparently rise when gun bans/restrictions are in place in any location in the world. So the idea here is nothing would get solved by America restricting them, and that it’s misinfo when we point to countries like Australia and Norway regarding gun bans resulting in safer places. Thoughts?@Dizcrybe @Patticus @Tornado

Hi, Australian here. This is probably somewhat anecdotal, but I figured I'd weigh in. We still get plenty of fatal stabbings and bashings here, but I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate it's anywhere near the epidemic America has to deal with in its gun culture. Frankly I feel like it's absolutely ridiculous that Americans have anything to lose by enacting better standards of gun control, especially when it comes to selling guns to unstable individuals or rifles to civilians that will never need that kind of firepower for anything good.

That being said, there's a lot of factors that go into this, and gun control admittedly isn't a fix-all solution on its own, which I feel like a lot of statistics like these fail to take into account. I feel like the two big, basic ones are healthcare and welfare. Mentally ill people can't buy guns if there aren't mentally ill people, and people don't turn to crime if there's a safety net to keep them alive. Both of these were pretty bad in America too last I heard - again, speaking anecdotally - and could benefit from upping their game here almost as much if not moreso than enacting proper gun control, especially if they come hand in hand.

I'm probably oversimplifying the hell out of this, so feel free to point out if I am. I'm morbidly curious how this became such a clusterfuck myself, NRA lobbying aside.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Honestly, the issue isn't really that much of a clusterfuck than it is people encouraging the toxic atmosphere regarding gun violence, and I say this as someone who prefers the right of gun ownership.

The whole "they find a way" argument completely ignore the whole point in gun regulation--yes, they'll find a way just like every criminal out there will find a way to do something illegal, but the whole point is making it more difficult for them to obtain them and easier to punish them when they do get them and go on shooting sprees. At the same time, it isn't to prevent people who are willing to be more responsible and much healthier mentally speaking with the weapon from having them...although I could definitely understand the concerns of those who believe that given that slippery slopes like that aren't uncommon in politics.

[KHCast]

With all the school protests going around and student marches, and support for them, my faith in humanity is still standing.  However a friend shared a post on Facebook that is an interesting read that I found myself agreeing with 

It’s a long one, but definitely insightful.

[SSF1991]

21 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

Hi, Australian here. This is probably somewhat anecdotal, but I figured I'd weigh in. We still get plenty of fatal stabbings and bashings here, but I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate it's anywhere near the epidemic America has to deal with in its gun culture. Frankly I feel like it's absolutely ridiculous that Americans have anything to lose by enacting better standards of gun control, especially when it comes to selling guns to unstable individuals or rifles to civilians that will never need that kind of firepower for anything good.

That being said, there's a lot of factors that go into this, and gun control admittedly isn't a fix-all solution on its own, which I feel like a lot of statistics like these fail to take into account. I feel like the two big, basic ones are healthcare and welfare. Mentally ill people can't buy guns if there aren't mentally ill people, and people don't turn to crime if there's a safety net to keep them alive. Both of these were pretty bad in America too last I heard - again, speaking anecdotally - and could benefit from upping their game here almost as much if not moreso than enacting proper gun control, especially if they come hand in hand.

I'm probably oversimplifying the hell out of this, so feel free to point out if I am. I'm morbidly curious how this became such a clusterfuck myself, NRA lobbying aside.

It is worth noting that proper treatment for mentally ill people and safety nets have also been proposed. The right wants nothing to do with those.

When we say that conservatives/right-wings have no intention on doing anything, we're not exaggerating. I wish we were, though.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

38 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

It is worth noting that proper treatment for mentally ill people and safety nets have also been proposed. The right wants nothing to do with those.

When we say that conservatives/right-wings have no intention on doing anything, we're not exaggerating. I wish we were, though.

Of course they wouldn't. Who else would they blame, condescend and punish for the failings of their system?

EDIT: I think Trump and his gang of cronies getting away with so much crap is getting to me. It’s making me act even more irrationally as of late.

[Dizcrybe]

18 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

EDIT: I think Trump and his gang of cronies getting away with so much crap is getting to me. It’s making me act even more irrationally as of late.

If it makes you feel any better, here's an article the intensification of Mueller's investigation.

Use Incognito Mode to read it.