The General 'Murican Politics Thread

[Meta77]

18 minutes ago, -Robin- said:

It was Ryan's bill.

 

But Trump said he would bring and pass an Obamacare repeal bill to the floor immediately. One of his golden promises, including building that godforsaken wall, and defeating ISIS in a month (a time limit that passed four weeks ago, due to the Yemen raid being conducted Jan. 29).

Ah gotcha oh well. Just means I got to see this on my fb wall for next to nights haha

[Tani Coyote]

Good to see the bill has failed.

Bad to see the GOP's now desperately scrambling to try and use executive actions to gut it but... will that help their cause any? Never mind how much this establishes them as massive hypocrites.

Saying Obama did it first (lol) isn't an excuse for doing it yourself. What are we, five?

Either way, it's looking like the clock isn't being turned back and the next Democratic President, assuming they have both chambers, will be in a better position to bring us closer to single payer.

Just now, Meta77 said:

Ah gotcha oh well. Just means I got to see this on my fb wall for next to nights haha

If you're not interested in hearing about politics, I wonder what you're doing posting in a politics thread.

[Meta77]

1 hour ago, Gregg (Ogilvie) said:

Good to see the bill has failed.

Bad to see the GOP's now desperately scrambling to try and use executive actions to gut it but... will that help their cause any? Never mind how much this establishes them as massive hypocrites.

Saying Obama did it first (lol) isn't an excuse for doing it yourself. What are we, five?

Either way, it's looking like the clock isn't being turned back and the next Democratic President, assuming they have both chambers, will be in a better position to bring us closer to single payer.

If you're not interested in hearing about politics, I wonder what you're doing posting in a politics thread.

Oh come off your high horse. Never said I didn't like it. What I don't like are people that sit and say glad it failed but offer noting that could replace Obama care that can be helpful without being the piece of crap it is now

[KHCast]

This is honestly quite pathetic to witness oh my god lol

[CleverSonicUsername]

4 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Oh come off your high horse. Never said I didn't like it. What I don't like are people that sit and say glad it failed but offer noting that could replace Obama care that can be helpful without being the piece of crap it is now

I'm glad to see it failed because its success meant taking 24 million off health insurance, limiting coverage, and hiking premiums even further. Trumpryangopcare should be buried 12 feet under and the earth salted just to be sure.

And no, I don't need to offer up a better replacement to validate my opinion. Just like I can look at a subpar piece of artwork and explain to you why it's poor without being required to paint a masterpiece.

[Meta77]

23 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

I'm glad to see it failed because its success meant taking 24 million off health insurance, limiting coverage, and hiking premiums even further. Trumpryangopcare should be buried 12 feet under and the earth salted just to be sure.

And no, I don't need to offer up a better replacement to validate my opinion. Just like I can look at a subpar piece of artwork and explain to you why it's poor without being required to paint a masterpiece.

Yet premiums are already rising.  just like when they said we would keep or those who lose coverage and 24 million what I want to know how many of those needed it and by that not just some young person that doesn't work just trying to bandwagon onto something cause I have many friends happy with Obama care but they literally do not work. I'm in no support of trumps or should i say Ryan's shit fest of a bill. It was rushed and horrible yes. But what was slapped before it with what did Nanci say we won't know what's all in it till things start to unfold? What we should allow is more competition to get affordable health care

[Patticus]

Premium rises are variable and depend on where you live and which insurers are active in your area. The kinds of rises Trump, Ryan et al like to bandwagon on have been found only in a handful of states (and there may be a correlation between states with the largest premium rises and those which did not opt to expand Medicaid and such) - most states have seen far lower rises in rates, the lowest in decades IIRC, and just about all of them were factored into ACA projections well before the election, so shouldn't have come as any great shock. This is something the over-vilified mandates were meant to control - if everyone, even young and healthy people, had to have health insurance by default, the logic went that premiums would inevitably begin falling. For many people, they have fallen.
 

I hate the idea of enthroning the health insurance lobby, though, and I would like to see the Democratic Party come together to forge a couple of workable healthcare reform packages (federal and state level?) soon that the whole party agrees can be green lit, even in a fractious congress, even with all of the elements in play that forced compromises on the ACA and scuttled the AHCA - if they can ever secure a large enough majority. You know, what the GOP didn't spend the last 8 years doing. Packages that move the US toward a better, less money-centric, more patient-centric healthcare model.

Being in the opposition is easy, because you never have to produce anything big, you'll never be expected to make good on what you're saying, and you can blame the administration for whatever the hell you like - even lie openly and still win big. I'd like to see the Democrats take a slightly different tack, crafting core policies and bills on hot button issues super early, getting really good at selling them (they really need a propaganda wing...) and getting them into people's political wishlists, and actually unifying as a party around them for a change. If Trump is going to be in campaign mode for the next 4-8 years, so too must the Democrats.

[CleverSonicUsername]

48 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

just like when they said we would keep or those who lose coverage and 24 million what I want to know how many of those needed it and by that not just some young person that doesn't work just trying to bandwagon onto something cause I have many friends happy with Obama care but they literally do not work.

Wow. Ok.

So everyone deserves health care. The fact that your friends don't work shouldn't mean they deserve to get sick and then eat massive costs or hope their illness doesn't spiral out of control. The fact that this isn't a guaranteed right is an embarrassment.

[Meta77]

13 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

Wow. Ok.

So everyone deserves health care. The fact that your friends don't work shouldn't mean they deserve to get sick and then eat massive costs or hope their illness doesn't spiral out of control. The fact that this isn't a guaranteed right is an embarrassment.

Who pays for it. Noting in this world comes for free and we all know the Government does not have money.

21 minutes ago, Patticus said:

Premium rises are variable and depend on where you live and which insurers are active in your area. The kinds of rises Trump, Ryan et al like to bandwagon on have been found only in a handful of states (and there may be a correlation between states with the largest premium rises and those which did not opt to expand Medicaid and such) - most states have seen far lower rises in rates, the lowest in decades IIRC, and just about all of them were factored into ACA projections well before the election, so shouldn't have come as any great shock. This is something the over-vilified mandates were meant to control - if everyone, even young and healthy people, had to have health insurance by default, the logic went that premiums would inevitably begin falling. For many people, they have fallen.
 

I hate the idea of enthroning the health insurance lobby, though, and I would like to see the Democratic Party come together to forge a couple of workable healthcare reform packages (federal and state level?) soon that the whole party agrees can be green lit, even in a fractious congress, even with all of the elements in play that forced compromises on the ACA and scuttled the AHCA - if they can ever secure a large enough majority. You know, what the GOP didn't spend the last 8 years doing. Packages that move the US toward a better, less money-centric, more patient-centric healthcare model.

Being in the opposition is easy, because you never have to produce anything big, you'll never be expected to make good on what you're saying, and you can blame the administration for whatever the hell you like - even lie openly and still win big. I'd like to see the Democrats take a slightly different tack, crafting core policies and bills on hot button issues super early, getting really good at selling them (they really need a propaganda wing...) and getting them into people's political wishlists, and actually unifying as a party around them for a change. If Trump is going to be in campaign mode for the next 4-8 years, so too must the Democrats.

Do dems and repubs even use the health care systems they have in place. Last I checked many of them are not even on the plans they force on everyone else.

[CleverSonicUsername]

Just now, Meta77 said:

Who pays for it.

This is what I expect our government to sit down and figure out, the problem is they're so damn obstinate. Though I have many grievances with the GOP, I'll happily take a plan if they can devise something better than Obamacare. Instead we got whatever the hell Ryan cooked up, which is so much worse it almost comes across like cartoon level villainy. And that was the best they could do. They kicked and moaned for years and when they finally had control, they pinched out the worst plan they could possibly think of and then gave up.

But what bothers me most is that you apparently look down on your friends as bandwagoners because they want health coverage, the basic expectation that if they get sick they can do something about it. The example you explicitly used was your friends.

[Meta77]

3 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

This is what I expect our government to sit down and figure out, the problem is they're so damn obstinate. Though I have many grievances with the GOP, I'll happily take a plan if they can devise something better than Obamacare. Instead we got whatever the hell Ryan cooked up, which is so much worse it almost comes across like cartoon level villainy. And that was the best they could do. They kicked and moaned for years and when they finally had control, they pinched out the worst plan they could possibly think of and then gave up.

But what bothers me most is that you apparently look down on your friends as bandwagoners because they want health coverage, the basic expectation that if they get sick they can do something about it. The example you explicitly used was your friends.

If someone is lazy regardless if they are my friends they need to work and put effort into it. Most like handouts. And its doubtful they will get that ill to the extent your probably implying. I doubt many do but every now and again youll have that person whos grandma needs several thousand for a operation and is thankful they did not have to pay a large chunk of it but just happy the money came from someone else. Still that raises another question why is it so expensive to carry out operations. Why after so many years does it still cost an arm and a leg. Instead of looking for ways to lower prices. Like that epi pen mess where they raised prices because they could.

Also Ryan did that just to stick a hot needle into trump. I doubt he cared what he stuck in it long as trump looks like the fool. The repubs could get a lot done but they are to busy trying to do each other in. Hell if both parties would work out some things. I know not everything is going to work out but just some. But all I usually see is we hate you you hate us. Lets just stick to that.

[KHCast]

That's like shaming poor single moms and people in esescapable poverty, poor minorities that can't get jobs, etc and calling them lazy moochers that should get a job if they want basic rights, despite the system actively going against their opportunities more often than not 

[Patticus]

34 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Who pays for it. Noting in this world comes for free and we all know the Government does not have money.

Taxpayers still pay - only by a more indirect route.

With no or extremely limited front end fees, and health insurance participation curtailed to the population that can actually afford and wants it (11% of the British population uses private health insurance, mainly through their employers), everyone earning over a threshold sum would pay into the pot via a tax or social fund. However, without monthly premiums sapping your finances, the amount you'd save would be far more than any new tax, resulting in a net financial gain for a fuck ton of people, yourself included.

If you truly want to learn about how other countries handle universal healthcare, read this CNN article. 

Despite healthcare's vast complexities, it is in no way impossible for the US to move over to a cheaper, more equable model that delivers patient care and outcomes on a par with what exists right now, while allowing Americans to keep a hold of more of their hard earned pay checks.

The government can siphon off funds from the over-bloated military budget if it wants more money. While they're at it, NASA's going to need another $100bn to get to Mars - another project under-funded by Trump's crappy-ass budget.

[Meta77]

2 minutes ago, Patticus said:

Taxpayers still pay - only by a more indirect route.

With no or extremely limited front end fees, and health insurance participation curtailed to the population that can actually afford and wants it (11% of the British population uses private health insurance, mainly through their employers), everyone earning over a threshold sum would pay into the pot via a tax or social fund. However, without monthly premiums sapping your finances, the amount you'd save would be far more than any new tax, resulting in a net financial gain for a fuck ton of people, yourself included.

The government can siphon off funds from the over-bloated military budget if it wants more money. While they're at it, NASA's going to need about $100bn to get to Mars - another project under-funded by Trump's  crappy-ass budget.

HMm interesting. So what would it take to go about that route

Wish I had 100b lol. I could give my folks a nice retirement.  least I got the stock market for the time being.

[CleverSonicUsername]

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

And its doubtful they will get that ill to the extent your probably implying.

You're right, the poor are more impervious to terminal illness and debilitation. It's all that living in squalor, boostin' their immune system. They don't know how good they got it!

Illness can impact anyone at any time, and whether or not you're able to seek treatment shouldn't be based on your income bracket.

 

[Patticus]

6 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

HMm interesting. So what would it take to go about that route

A couple of elections of left-leaning sweeps for the Democrats at the state and federal levels both, the left wing of the party wielding enough influence to make it a legislative priority for the administration, and great salesmanship. Don't expect it any time soon, then. Right now the Democrats' priority is probably more focused on preserving the status quo and tinkering with the ACA (if it still exists) later, rather than more sweeping reforms.

If Trump kills the ACA and things go bad, the door may be open to better reforms later if the Democrats can win big enough, but they still need great salespeople to spread the word and unite the party.

[Conando]

3 hours ago, Patticus said:

Taxpayers still pay - only by a more indirect route.
 

(cut the rest to safe space)

If you want to get really specific too, the Hospitals end up paying as well. At least in major cities where you can't turn people down for emergency care. My brother works for the billing office of Mass General and he and his coworkers know full well that a lot of those bills are never getting paid. Not just that either, insurance companies can still weasel their way out of paying things for the patients without "Cadillac" plans, though not to the extent before. Regression is the best plan they have right now? So really, can any people tell us again WHY idiotic plans like TrumpCare actually benefit anyone but the ultra rich? They certainly don't benefit the Hospitals, and they certainly don't benefit the poor.

Edit: Also going to get personal. Yeah those poor people sure don't get deathly ill, they don't need any safety nets. My uncle has lung cancer, he's mentally ill and doesn't have a dollar to his name. If it weren't for Mass Health (which Obamacare is in part based off of) he'd already be long dead.

[Candescence]

Basically, what fucked over the bill was Trump's impatience for debate over policy detail and basically trying to railroad the GOP to basically "get the repeal done, or else", regardless of what the bill actually did - to him, the actual content of the repeal bill mattered less than the optics of the bill failing in any form. He also make a crucial mistake that pushed the Freedom Caucus' leader away from supporting him.

Trump wants big picture results rather than wanting to "waste his time" with the "little details" - that's why his travel bans have been blocked, and why he can't get a repeal bill through. He's too impatient and incapable of grasping that lawmaking is all about the "little details".

[Volphied]

Speaking of FBI investigations:

 

[Tornado]

2 hours ago, Candescence said:

Basically, what fucked over the bill was Trump's impatience for debate over policy detail and basically trying to railroad the GOP to basically "get the repeal done, or else", regardless of what the bill actually did - to him, the actual content of the repeal bill mattered less than the optics of the bill failing in any form. He also make a crucial mistake that pushed the Freedom Caucus' leader away from supporting him.

Trump wants big picture results rather than wanting to "waste his time" with the "little details" - that's why his travel bans have been blocked, and why he can't get a repeal bill through. He's too impatient and incapable of grasping that lawmaking is all about the "little details".

Though it bears repeating: Those idiots had seven years to come up with something, and spent most of them saying how obviously better they could do it; then tried to throw something together in three months anyway.

[Patticus]

1 hour ago, Volphied said:

The White House was already told to preserve all their records, including, IIRC, cell phone data. Boy, it sure is funny of them to do this after bitching for literal years about how Clinton was such a bad candidate for her staff attempting the deletion of all those emails (ignoring the 20mill deleted at the end of Bush's term). I hope some law-abiding staffer in there is preserving as much material as possible, to bargain for immunity from prosecution when dem subpoenas begin.

Quite what they'd all have to hide right now is beyond me though. Are they all Russian moles or something?

[Chili Dawg]

32 minutes ago, Patticus said:

Quite what they'd all have to hide right now is beyond me though. Are they all Russian moles or something?

Probably. 

[Kevin]

Looking back at what happened yesterday, what a disaster this was for Trump and the Republicans! Remember that Trump touted himself as a dealmaker that could get things done and that on day one, Obamacare would be repealed and replaced. This is a bill that was supposed to easily pass the House since the real fight would be in the Senate. So what happens after this failure? "Welp, I guess we'll just leave Obamacare in place and move on!". The Democrats cannot be blamed for this one considering the Republicans have control of all 3 branches of government. Trump sure got a lesson of how Congress really works and what happens when there's in-fighting within your party.

[Patticus]

59 minutes ago, Kevin said:

The Democrats cannot be blamed for this one considering the Republicans have control of all 3 branches of government. 

They're going to try to ensure that the ACA marketplaces enter a death spiral (as opposed to the phantom death spiral they've been talking about for years), premiums skyrocket, lives get ruined etc and pin it on the Democrats. This is the next stage in the healthcare fight, and it will not be pretty.

[Candescence]

That might not be easy if the Democrats can point to obvious sabotage. Politicians are good at making correlations between something their opponents did and something bad that has happened in the country - take the example over here of Tony Abbott demonizing Julia Gillard's carbon tax for raising electricity prices (which didn't actually decrease when he repealed it once getting into office, they actually doubled after less than four years).

And really, when bad shit happens, people blame whoever is in office for not preventing it. Sabotaging Obamacare and trying to pin it on the Dems probably won't work in practice - another example over here, the Libs screaming "Labor's at fault for everything bad" when in office turned out to not be an effective strategy.