The General 'Murican Politics Thread

[Johnny Boy]

1 hour ago, CottonCandy said:

Absolutely disgusting. What's even scary is that there are members of the alt-right who praises the horrific act. Trump has got to condemn this group before it gets out of hand. 

Pffffft, after that "all sides" bullshit he just spewed? Highly doubt it.

[KHCast]

I just can't with this society 

[Meta77]

10 hours ago, KHCast said:

I just can't with this society 

It's funny cause rev Jessie really hates white men and people. Or least his guest calling in do. Regardless Nazis are annoying. That's why I like wolfinstien. They not let them protest and then go home instead of busing people in to have confrontations and then get mad when ones punches someone. Didn't this start over a stage. It's sad people lost thuer lives over something so tribal that's been around for years without issue but now they got to go. The world's is a mess.

[Dizcrybe]

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

It's funny cause rev Jessie really hates white men and people. 

I don't understand how this is relevant...

[Meta77]

7 minutes ago, Dizcrybe said:

I don't understand how this is relevant...

Cause he's in that picture?

[Tani Coyote]

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/14/trump-denounces-white-supremacists-racist-violence-after-criticism.html

Trump has formally denounced neo-Nazis, the KKK, and white supremacists 2 days later.

While an insincere gesture, it may have real consequences. A lot of his base are angry he's condemning those groups but not Antifa or BLM (remember many of them consider BLM a terror group). Likewise, his supremacist base might take the comments as a direct hit and possibly hang up their MAGA hats.

Now while we have evidence some members of the alt-right are tactful and make a point to publicly disavow white supremacy so it's harder to pin on them (that is, become many members of the GOP caucus that they supposedly despise), this does bode well for Democrats' 2018 and 2020 odds. Trump may have just caused more of his base to slip out of his fingers, and he needs almost all of them to be re-elected.

[Dizcrybe]

4 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Cause he's in that picture?

Even so, going "well there are people that hate whites too" has nothing to do with anything because those people didn't organize a gathering illegally and run over a crowd of protesters in a car, killing one and injuring 19 others. We really don't need this kind of whatabout-ism right now, in any form.

[shdowhunt60]

Seems all rather inevitable, doesn't it?

Let's be real here folks, the far-left and far-right are at the point where they're all feeding into each other, and it's gotten to the point where it's going to spiral out of control. And any of you "go punch a Nazi" types out there, do you seriously think you have the capacity to actually fight them?

This can end in only one way, and it's going to come at the expense of freedom and democracy. Thanks Antifa, thanks Alt-Right. You both fucking suck, and you both are going to ruin it for absolutely everyone.

[Dizcrybe]

Yeah, let's also not do this. It was alt-right neo-nazis that started this whole thing. It was an alt-right neo-nazi that plowed into a crowd of protesters. Whatever "antifa" was there were just residents who understandably were vehemently opposed to a gathering of nazis happening in their town. We know who's responsible. We know who's at fault. The far-left has no place in this discussion, period.

Furthermore, who the fuck said anything about punching nazis recently? Why would you even bring that up?

[Tani Coyote]

 

So this happened, apparently. Shame our solidarity doesn't extend to the ballot box, where a lot of neo-Nazis will be enabled.

Comparing "Antifa" and white supremacist violence is laughable. That'd be like comparing the American Revolution and the Third Reich. Violence is part of both, but for vastly different ends.

Let's review here.

White supremacists, neo-Nazis, etc. propose a state that is going to marginalize and dehumanize whole groups of people even if genocide isn't necessarily part of the plan (it helps to remember a lot of the German Nazis didn't have the Holocaust planned out from the start, on this subject; also consider how many neo-Nazis engage in Holocaust denial, which indicates that they can't process the idea their hateful views will inevitably lead to mass slaughter).

"Antifa" propose rallying against those same people, and doesn't rule out violence because a white supremacist state will inevitably be violent. Now yes, while they might run afoul of immediate threat doctrine, it's still hard to say that they are equally as bad. Arguments against the death penalty aside, that's like saying executing a convicted serial killer is the same as the serial killer's murders. That's absurd.

We give different ideologies equal weight in our society because the alternative would be civil war. It's a matter of pragmatism, not principle. We have to accommodate both left and right wing ideologies as if they were equally valid for the sake of order, even though reason would state one of them is going to be better overall.

So while we may legally view Antifa and neo-Nazis as both violent and equally bad (for the sake of order), from an ethical perspective, it's much harder to make the case.

Bear in mind here, I generally oppose violence because in most cases I don't think it helps anything regardless of your cause. But to say all violence is equal just doesn't hold up upon closer scrutiny.

I, for one, am not going to cry tears if I lose the "freedom" to engage in marches that clearly intimidate people. It's not like this is some peaceful protest with signs calling for stricter immigration controls. When you have the use of torches in one rally and the proud flying of Nazi flags and Hitler salutes in another...

[shdowhunt60]

4 hours ago, Dizcrybe said:

It was an alt-right neo-nazi that plowed into a crowd of protesters.

I'm sorry, but bullshit. There is a reason why Charlottesville happened now, and not last year. It's a direct response to the violent riots that have cropped up out of universities in Trump's America, not to mention the violence that's come out of Black Lives Matter protests

Cancer begets cancer, and these two are fucking fit for each other. One only has to look at the posts advocating initiating violence against Nazis getting massive attention on Tumblr. The Years of Lead have returned indeed.

[Tani Coyote]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ralph-northam-general-election-ad-health-care_us_598c687be4b0d793738d10e4

Virginia Governor candidate Ralph Northam has aired his first general election campaign ad, which emphasizes healthcare.

Rather than having a generic policy like "Repeal Obamacare," Northam got right into specifics: he will push for expanding Medicaid with funds from the Affordable Care Act.

For Northam to do that, he will need the state legislature. Democrats need to pick up 17 seats (there are 49 Republican seats being contested) in the House of Delegates to have a majority this year, and they will need to win over one Republican in the state Senate so the Lt. Governor can break a tie. Two if the Lt. Governor position is picked up by the GOP.

Northam's biggest strength is his position on healthcare, which voters greatly trust him more with than his GOP opponent.

52 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

There is a reason why Charlottesville happened now, and not last year.

Because Trump's victory has made racists feel empowered?

You seriously can't deny that, dude. Do you think it's "SJW activism" on the government's part that makes it so the federal government finds a lot more incidences of racist abuse when it's controlled by Democrats? If the federal government is so biased, why is it that the Obama Justice Department found that Michael Brown was shot in self-defense? A biased department surely would have ruled in Brown's favor, as the quack doctor hired by Brown's family did. Aside: it's less a case of "oh see, police brutality doesn't happen" and more a case of a broken clock still being right twice a day, given that same investigation uncovered widespread abuse in the Ferguson PD.

But Obama's gone and we have Sessions leading the Department now. A racist anywhere can feel empowered for the next 4 years, because the justice system just lost its biggest check on institutional racism.

Of course the Left has problems. No one's denying that. But bringing the left into the picture when neo-Nazis get criticized is honestly like when a guy brings up men receiving harsher penalties in courts when women's rights is being discussed. It's not just deflective, it's dismissive.

If you're interested in left wing violence being discussed in this thread, by all means, please make posts about it. This is just a discussion thread, we're not required to be all-inclusive in what we post. It is honestly eyebrow raising to drop in to discuss left wing violence when right wing violence is discussed. Surely it merits independent discussion of its own if it's so widespread?

Quote

It's a direct response to the violent riots that have cropped up out of universities in Trump's America, not to mention the violence that's come out of Black Lives Matter protests

I keep hearing this but I'd honestly like to compare the number of violent incidents to peaceful protests.

Of course there will be violence. There was violence during the Civil Rights era. It's what happens when you get huge numbers of emotionally charged people together in a group, and some of them can't control their emotions.

But it is nonsense to try and equalize anti-Trump violence to white supremacist violence. Would you think the people of the Warsaw Ghetto were "equally as bad" to fight back against the Germans?

Trump is trying to ban transgender people from serving. Trump is trying to snatch healthcare from millions of Americans. Trump is actively calling for police to be more brutal in how they handle people. This isn't a "ree a Republican," the man is legitimately a piece of shit and I can understand why people would be quick to call him evil and go the route of violence.

What do white supremacists have to say? They're being told they can't have a statue of a General who fought on the side of slavery? Poor little babies.

Quote

One only has to look at the posts advocating initiating violence against Nazis getting massive attention on Tumblr.

And again, it's false equivalence bullshit.

Nazis propose dehumanization at best and genocide at worst. Punching them is honestly tame in comparison.

[PaddyFancy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

What the fuck?

Did he seriously just retract his revised statement back to his original statement, blaming both sides again instead of the ones who murdered that woman?

[Tani Coyote]

55 minutes ago, PaddyFancy said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40943425

What the fuck?

Did he seriously just retract his revised statement back to his original statement, blaming both sides again instead of the ones who murdered that woman?

Yeeeep, he sure did.

I assume all his followers who were angry at him yesterday love him again.

You'd think such rapid flipflopping would turn more people off him long term. He can't be trusted. He has few real opinions and says whatever makes him look good.

[KHCast]

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I'm sorry, but bullshit. There is a reason why Charlottesville happened now, and not last year. It's a direct response to the violent riots that have cropped up out of universities in Trump's America, not to mention the violence that's come out of Black Lives Matter protests

Cancer begets cancer, and these two are fucking fit for each other. One only has to look at the posts advocating initiating violence against Nazis getting massive attention on Tumblr. The Years of Lead have returned indeed.

>nazi's are criticized

>knee jerk reaction is to somehow throw the side against nazi's and inequality under the bus 

I can see where you more than likely stand on a couple issues if you're trying to equalize this issue among parties and say both sides are equally shit. 

I mean are you a really gonna tell me it has nothing to do with Trump, his administration, and his shit policies, and oppressive stances, and all to do with people *gasp* wanting the same rights as white straight men and making their voices heard? And are we really doing this "BLM is a hateful violent group" thing again and ignoring the context of what goes on with them compared to fucking conservative privileged fucks getting into a whine off about feeling like their not the center of attention? Fucking Christ 

[Dizcrybe]

4 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I'm sorry, but bullshit.

I'm sorry, but not bullshit.

Quote

Fields, described by a former high school teacher as an admirer of Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany, was charged with second-degree murder.

Quote

Also Monday, a former classmate told The Associated Press that on a school trip to Europe in 2015, a teenage Fields couldn't stand the French and said he only went on the trip so that he could visit "the Fatherland" — Germany.

"He just really laid on about the French being lower than us and inferior to us," said Keegan McGrath.

Quote

A teacher who taught Fields in high school said Sunday that Fields was fascinated with Nazism, idolized Hitler, and had been singled out in the ninth grade by officials at Randall K. Cooper High School in Union, Kentucky, for his "deeply held, radical" convictions on race.

[...]

Fields had been photographed hours before the attack with a shield bearing the emblem of Vanguard America, one of the hate groups that took part in the protest against the removal of a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee. The group on Sunday denied any association with Fields.

The guy was a literal Hitler fanboy. If that doesn't scream "neo-nazi" to you then there's really no point in continuing this conversation any further.

Furthermore, your "but the radical left tho" argument - a favorite of yours, apparently - holds no water because, as has been said, the left, radical or otherwise, has not killed a person. When Richard Spencer or some other neo-nazi has their life taken from them because of their beliefs, then we can talk.

[Tani Coyote]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/trump-news-conference-twitter/index.html

Trump's meltdown today really was impressive. Blasting "fake news," clearly on the verge of screaming, all while talking about how if Lee and Stonewall Jackson's statues go, Washington and Jefferson's will be next, etc. Or the best part, saying both sides had "good people."

Naturally, he's received praise from the likes of David Duke for his remarks. Pretty much everyone else thinks he's seriously disgusting for equating the neo-Nazis and the antifa that fought with them, never mind his statement that they're both equally good.

He's touting a generic "all violence is bad" narrative while ignoring the nuance of the circumstances that lead to violence. All while hiding behind "well I already denounced white supremacists so I obviously am not helping them" argument.

2 hours ago, KHCast said:

fucking conservative privileged fucks

While I understand discussion is tense, I think when referring to mainstream political factions collectively, it would be good to avoid using coarse language like this.

Doubly so given many on the right have still come out against the actions at Charlottesville.

[KHCast]

Except I'm not generalizing the entirety of conservatives? It's clear I'm talking about the neo-Nazi's/their backers. There ARE conservatives that are privileged whiny fucks, and most of the support for these neo-Nazi's and the bullshit rhetoric against "sjw" causes, are indeed rooted from the conservative mindset. I'm just not afraid of people that aren't the ones I'm calling out specifically, feeling personally attacked because they're also conservative. It's like when you complain about a subset of no mans Sky or botw fans being toxic and the regular fans still take it personally. Or I could just go "privileged white straight people whining about not being the star of the show", bug then white straight people might feel personalized. There's really no way to step around pointing out certain people within certain groups. If someone takes it personally, that's on them.:/

This isn't even brining up how it comes off you're discrediting the entirety of my point because of that one line, which you can still get the general point of that line in the context I was putting it in

[Tani Coyote]

Today had two primary elections that will serve as a crystal ball into the future of the GOP.

In Alabama, candidates are facing off to receive the GOP nomination to fill the seat Jeff Sessions vacated; because it's Alabama, the primary is basically the general election.

In Utah, GOP candidates are likewise facing off to receive the nomination for Rep. Jason Chaffetz' seat.

In both cases, you have multiple flavors of the GOP.

In the Alabama race, Luther Strange (currently serving as the replacement Senator) has both Trump and McConnell's endorsement. However, he is receiving tough competition from further right candidates Moore and Brooks. Brooks' main sales pitch is draining the swamp and he's openly called for McConnell to be replaced as majority leader. Moore, meanwhile, is a frontrunner, who has become infamous for twice being suspended from the state Supreme Court (he was elected again after the first) because he refused to enforce federal court decisions on gay marriage. Despite Trump and McConnell's endorsements, Moore is leading Strange. If he manages to come out on top tonight (there will be runoff between the top two candidates in September if no one gets a majority), it is at least a huge blow to McConnell's credibility, if not Trump's.

Utah is more interesting. Two deeply conservative House members faced a moderate who has a record of previously being a Democrat and serving in local Democratic leadership.

Update:

In Utah, the ex-Democrat beat the odds and won the race.

Utah may possibly spawn more Murkowskis and Collinses than Cruzes in the future.

Alabama has resulted in a runoff, with far right Moore taking 39% of the vote and Strange taking 31%.

18 minutes ago, KHCast said:

This isn't even brining up how it comes off you're discrediting the entirety of my point because of that one line, which you can still get the general point of that line in the context I was putting it in

Not discrediting, just saying it can easily be taken the wrong way.

[KHCast]

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/im-terrified-neo-nazi-blubbers-like-a-baby-in-video-reporting-hes-wanted-for-arrest-in-charlottesville/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=im&utm_tracker=1737131x84899

 

just gonna leave this here and laugh. My god this has really gotten pathetic 

[Tani Coyote]

I think it's good to look at this from a cultural perspective.

This happens all the time. People break the law and get all sad when there are consequences.

I don't think it's white privilege or whatever that makes them think they'd be immune from prosecution. I think it's a real lack of understanding of the world. Which is particularly surreal, since these kinds of people are the first to claim the government has been taken over by their enemies and so they should of course expect consequences.

But this gives some room for hope, at least for the younger ones. They've been brought up in these bubbles online that reinforce their ignorant views courtesy of echo chambers. Then when they finally leave those bubbles and venture into activism, they discover they're far from the mainstream.

You know I honestly wonder. How many of these people have had a serious conversation with a minority? Not hanging out. Actually sitting down and talking about these kinds of issues. It's amazing what, say, a little conversation about gender issues with a transgender person can do to change your opinions. We start to realize whatever perspective we've bought into is far from the absolute truth.

[Patticus]

And cops wonder why the public has so little faith in them any more.

[Chris Knopps]

I've been speculating lately that President Obama was the last "Nice Guy" in line for the role. People in the US have gotten so frustrated over immigration and minority issues, all the finger pointing and slandering, all the "straight cis white" or however they say it stuff...

That's why the "Silent Majority" that voted Trump into power won, and that's why I think from here on the US is going to vote for worse and worse Presidents with worse and worse outlooks on both immigrants and minorities as a whole until we quite literally wind up with the equivalent of our own President Hitler.

It's sad to say but I do think trump is just the first stepping stone toward the person in the White House folks actually want. A few President's down it wouldn't be impossible for people to wish Trump was back in office compared to who we'll be getting from here on.

If you're a minority or an immigrant, I'd suggest Canada or anywhere really, this place is going downhill fast and it isn't climbing up anytime soon, if ever again.

All of the hate/slander/racism/bigotry toward white people is the main cause of this over the years, and to say this isn't a factor, and likely a massive one at that, would be blind.

What's unfortunate is that it reached a point where white people have gotten so fed up they've become home-grown terrorists in retaliation to the abuse and slander and have created a new uprising of all these white-supremist groups. I'm not for supremacy of any race, I'm not for being racist/bigoted toward any race. But all of this name calling, and calling out, done by minorities in recent years did not help in preventing what's happening now.

I don't know why we have to abuse one another until it reaches a point where attacks are made and lives are lost, but such is the curse of human nature.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

7 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

All of the hate/slander/racism/bigotry toward white people is the main cause of this over the years, and to say this isn't a factor, and likely a massive one at that, would be blind.

What's unfortunate is that it reached a point where white people have gotten so fed up they've become home-grown terrorists in retaliation to the abuse and slander and have created a new uprising of all these white-supremist groups. I'm not for supremacy of any race, I'm not for being racist/bigoted toward any race. But all of this name calling, and calling out, done by minorities in recent years did not help in preventing what's happening now.

I don't know why we have to abuse one another until it reaches a point where attacks are made and lives are lost, but such is the curse of human nature.

Oh sure blame the minorities for the "precious" feelings of the overly privileged bigoted white man's feelings getting hurt. It's totally not like they haven't decided for years that minorities were sub-humans to be treated as less than dirt for centuries on end all the while preaching about tolerance and shit because they knew they were always going to be on top due to built in prejudices. And when we finally are starting to get real equality, they throw a hissy fit that the world isn't giving their entitled asses their due and enabling their bullshit anymore.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Oh sure blame the minorities for the "precious" feelings of the overly privileged bigoted white man's feelings getting hurt. It's totally not like they haven't decided for years that minorities were sub-humans to be treated as less than dirt for centuries on end and when we finally are starting to get real equality, they throw a hissy fit that the world isn't giving their entitled asses their due.

See?

That's something that helped fuel all this. My point isn't that it gives white people the right to retaliate this way, the point is statements like that from so many over the years helped lead up to what's happening. It's poking the lion and now the lion it retaliating in a rabid manner.

It's not right, but it's human nature. We attack when provoked too much. This goes for all races really, it isn't just this or that one. White people are nowhere near as privileged as folks might believe nowadays, certainly not in the US as they have the hardest time getting benefits and as a majority they pay the most into the benefits being given to minorities. There are many things that should be taken into consideration more but the view toward white people tends to be very narrow minded and ignorant in the grand scheme out of being raised to ignore the whole truth and instead focus on the partial segments.

I'm not saying any of what's happening is right. None of it should be happening as life is something you cannot replace. But it's something that WAS fueled by the hatred. Hate is met with hate. It takes two in order to tango. Something had to happen for one side to be coaxed enough into attacking/killing the other, and that's where my theory/stance comes from.