The General 'Murican Politics Thread

[Dizcrybe]

50 minutes ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

I don't think one should normally completely exclude people based on viewpoints because then there's no possibility to change them.

That's if you believe they can change...

As for what I can think people with conservative views, that depends on how you define "conservative".

[Tani Coyote]

2 minutes ago, Dizcrybe said:

That's if you believe they can change...

Considering how many white supremacists have become racial justice advocates?

Yeah. Pretty much everyone can.

[KHCast]

30 minutes ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Considering how many white supremacists have become racial justice advocates?

Yeah. Pretty much everyone can.

Could have sworn not long ago you had expressed sentiment about how there are some that are just a lost cause regarding convincing. 

For me personally, I guess I’m just not as optimistic about certain people. At some point in the argument, I’m just gonna say fuck it and fuck you to those that continue to plug their ears and push hate and prejudice . Some people for me are not worth the effort to try and convince when it just leads to yelling at a brick wall. Especially on fucking Facebook. Not saying I’m just wanting an echo chamber, but at least people respectful and open minded. Then maybe I’ll be the same back regarding what they have to say.(unless what they have to say is regressive or just plain dumb as hell.)

[Dizcrybe]

6 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Considering how many white supremacists have become racial justice advocates?

Yeah. Pretty much everyone can.

Everyone. Really? Even Trump? Even Moore or Bannon or Milo or Richard Spencer?

Come on, now, there's seeing the glass as half-full and then there's just blind optimism. Cognitive dissonance and denial are far more powerful than a lot of people would like to admit. Maybe a few people might turn over a new leaf, but the vast majority have made up their minds.

6 hours ago, KHCast said:

Not saying I’m just wanting an echo chamber, but at least people respectful and open minded.

"Echo chamber" these days is little more than a right-wing buzzword meaning "not enough people agree with me". I'd bet my life that the same people who complain about left-wing echo chambers go back to their own right-wing safe spaces where they have like-minded people assuring them they were in the right at the end of the day.

[Tani Coyote]

6 hours ago, KHCast said:

Could have sworn not long ago you had expressed sentiment about how there are some that are just a lost cause regarding convincing.

Some, but certainly not all.

It really is, like most things, dependent on circumstances. There is often something that happens at seemingly random in a person's life that makes them suddenly abandon what they were holding so dear moments prior. It is rather like how a person in an abusive relationship will often look past the abuse to the frustration of everyone outside it, but then... something happens. And suddenly, the emotional tie to the abuser is lost. The victim abandons them at the first opportunity.

Sadly we don't have an exact cause and effect for either case.

I'm not saying you have to sing kumbayah with all people. Just that you never know if one day you might be able to.

19 minutes ago, Dizcrybe said:

Everyone. Really? Even Trump? Even Moore or Bannon or Milo or Richard Spencer?

George Wallace.

Malcolm X.

Keith Ellison.

Robert Byrd.

Rather than assume bigots are irrevocably evil, perhaps we should consider there are pressures in place that keep them from changing their view. So yes, I'm not going to get on the stand and say all the people mentioned could never possibly change. It's not likely, but I don't think it's because they can't. I think it's because there are pressures in place that inhibit a positive change in behavior.

Indeed. This is the cornerstone of a rehabilitative justice system. The idea the overwhelming majority of people are fluid rather than solid, and we should study what makes that fluid change. That the majority of society's malcontents are not sociopaths, but responded to whatever incentives there were in their lives, and were molded by everyone they came into contact with.

Here's where the idea of "people never change" runs into an unfortunate truth: you have to live alongside these people. Unless the plan is to engage in a violent suppression of them, the options are that they either can change their minds and we need to make an effort, or we just have to accept things will probably never get much better. Can you blame my optimism when confronted with these options?

Besides, I'm a socialist. Establishing class consciousness is a must. That entails reaching into the hearts and minds of practically every person and winning them over.

Although I have to say, naming the leaders of radical movements as damning evidence people can't change their mind is disingenuous considering they're leading a large pool of varied individuals. Many of whom get lured into these movements because they're ignorant and pissed off.

[KHCast]

Tbf I think calling trump,  Moore, or Milo flat out evil is pretty justified. As was callin Hitler evil. There’s no actual reasonable pressures and stresses keeping them from changing. These are people living in white, rich, straight,etc. institutionalized privilege and see others as lesser and do not wish to better life for everyone.

 

You may as well argue Disney villains aren’t evil either and just need to be understood and talked too. Idk I can kinda see where you come from, but guess we just see the situation differently 

[SSF1991]

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

Tbf I think calling trump  flat out evil is pretty justified. As was callin Hitler evil. There’s no actual reasonable pressures and stresses keeping them from changing.

You'd think being President of the United States is a pretty big incentive to change...

[KHCast]

12 minutes ago, SSF1991 said:

You'd think being President of the United States is a pretty big incentive to change...

If anything that just furthers my point. There’s no justifiable reason to continue a hateful agenda that fucks over many people outside greed and superiority complex. Nothing is honestly keeping you from changing and serving all the people. You’d think being president would be incentive to change, but he doesn’t seem to care about formalities. Though honestly considering his entire campaign leading up to his presidency was built on shit like hate and divisiveness and classism, I don’t know why we expected a sudden change in attitude once he swore himself in.

[Kevin]

With the recent bickering between Trump and Kim Jong-Un, this George Carlin video comes to mind:

How I wished he were still alive to commentate on the events happening today. The amount of material for him would have been endless!

[Tani Coyote]

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/03/politics/presidential-election-commission/index.html

Trump has dissolved his voter fraud panel.

Ever the finger pointing type, he claims it's because no states cooperated with him.

He is also engaging in gaslighting, as the official White House statement says there is "substantial evidence" of voter fraud, even as Secretaries of State across the country are "fuck no, there isn't."

He remains a threat to the existence of our democracy, because he is telling all the "woke" people in his base that they can't trust any politician besides him.

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/02/politics/michele-bachmann-franken-senate-seat/index.html

Michele Bachmann is considering a run for Al Franken's Senate seat in Minnesota.

Fortunately, the odds are long. Minnesota last elected a GOP Senator in 2002, which was a weird year where the GOP picked up seats due to national unity around Bush. Presidentially, Minnesota has likewise elected Democrats for 11 elections straight, even if 2016's race was closer than usual (it's worth remembering the unusual circumstances of the 2016 race as well as Trump's Great Lakes appeal).

18 hours ago, KHCast said:

Tbf I think calling trump,  Moore, or Milo flat out evil is pretty justified. As was callin Hitler evil.

I don't really believe in evil people. I believe in evil actions.

You can find almost every person we'd consider to be evil doing some good deed, however small, in their lives. The real difference between evil and good people, to use the terms, is their capacity to love the few versus the many.

Let us use the archetypical case of Hitler. For all his many faults, he had a deep love and reverence for his mother. It was this love that caused him to place the Jewish doctor who took care of her in her final years under state protection, and allow him safe passage out of the country. It makes the events associated with him more tragic; why could he find it in his heart to show mercy to one person, but not millions more? By sparing that doctor, he contradicted his anti-Semitic ideology, and had he done some logical thinking, he could have realized his whole genocidal campaign was based in nonsense. Similarly, he was deeply distraught after the death of his dog Blondi. He wasn't devoid of positive human emotions, he just rarely let them win out in his decisions.

Let us contrast the case of another Nazi, who goes by TJ. TJ joined the white supremacist movement and served as a recruiter. Similarly to Hitler, despite his hateful ideology, he had deep love for certain people in his life. Unlike Hitler, however, as time went on, he became concerned for the safety of his children if they grew up in the movement. His wife felt that if they died, it was for the good of the cause of white supremacy. This prompted TJ to leave the movement as well as grab his children and run off with them to get them away from their mother. He has since become a racial justice activist. It was his capacity to love, however limited it was, that ultimately saved him.

So yes. I think Trump, Moore, Milo, Hitler, Spencer, all the rest do and did evil acts. But until a person has died, I always believe they have the capacity to change.

If they will is another matter, largely dependent, like everything else, on circumstances.

It doesn't help that there is a thirst for vengeance that courses through practically all people. There were quite a few Israeli politicians who fantasized about genocide against the German people after World War II. The fear of punishment acts as an incentive to continue down one's dark path, even if you realize it's the dark path. This was even the case for TJ: he was under considerable pressure to not leave the neo-Nazi movement, knowing his former colleagues might hunt him down and kill him. But he did it for his family.

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There’s no actual reasonable pressures and stresses keeping them from changing.

We live in a toxic masculine, capitalist culture that makes us base our self-worth on how much wealth and power we can accrue. The same culture that makes us feel upsetting people is a sign of dominance.

That's pressure enough. Ideas ingrained in our minds can be extremely difficult to shake. It's no surprise emotional trauma is often the catalyst for a change in perspective.

[Tani Coyote]

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/04/politics/jeff-sessions-cole-memo/index.html

Jeff Sessions will be rolling back Obama-era marijuana policies that helped protect states that legalized or decriminalized it.

Given how legal marijuana has been triumphing in both red and blue states, here's hoping this has severe electoral consequences later this year.

It may also prompt a response from Congress, similar to the ended Obamacare subsidies and DACA. The fact is that while Obama was an executive order-based President, a lot of his policies became the norm, and now Trump is having trouble rolling them back without blowback.

[KHCast]

7 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

I don't really believe in evil people. I believe in evil actions

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree here as philosophically, we view this subject very differently. To me one good deed vs a mountain of bad doesn’t atone one from judgment and bar them from hate and the label of being a bad person with ultimately evil ambitions(which to me evil actions makes a evil person). I don’t personally have this optimistic idea that men of that caliber would change if one simply sat down and chatted with them. Some people won’t change that’s just a fact. You’re optimistic about just about everyone and everythb, I respect that, but that’s just not how I view life 

 

https://www.advocate.com/politics/2018/1/03/mike-pence-swears-doug-jones-gay-son-looks?utm_source=ADVFB&utm_medium=ORG

now this is funny. Gotta wonder what pence was thinking as Jones son looked at him like that 

[Dark Qiviut]

On another note, Scott Dworkin is apparently using The Resistance and Russiagate as tools to scare and scam people.

This morning, GeoffMiami published a great piece dissecting Dworkin's scam on Progressive Army: http://progressivearmy.com/2018/01/04/exclusive-resistance-grift-scott-dworkin-turned-resistance-personal-payday/

Someone wasn't a fan.

[Chili Dawg]

I briefly followed Dworkin in the early days of the administration. Thought he was on to something. It just became clearer and clearer the guy was in the business of self promotion more than anything else.

Common theme amongst Twitter types. Provide fear so they can sell you hope. Then provide extra fear so you buy more hope, repeat. I ended up leaving Twitter just cause I found myself getting too sucked into utter insanity. Stay informed, be angry, protest, all that good stuff. But do not lose your head and swallow anything that conforms to your emotions.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

19 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

I don't really believe in evil people. I believe in evil actions.

You know, I’d almost side with you on that, but I find it too binary in the face of empathy and the golden rule.

I get what you’re saying, and it does make sense given the examples you give, however, I personally add the collorary of “If you don’t want someone doing or thinking [insert negative bigoted notion] to you, don’t do it to them.”

Case in point, Dylann Roof. There was not a goddamn thing he did in killing nine people in a church that was called for, and I believe him as an evil person that should rightfully be put down like the dog he is. To say nothing of police brutality that goes on because of power abusing officers.

Another case would be the militant group ISIS, whom’s actions are so many and generally well known that fucking al-Qaeda thought they went too far and and did a bunch of unnecessary shit that had little to do with their cause if not hurt it. The way I look at cases like this is a matter of people too entitled to the point that they’ll harm others just because they can and want to or because they don’t care of what damage they do even if a much better alternative would be more worthwhile—I say this because I believe in necessary evils that actually do some overall good to many as opposed to the few or to those that fit whatever narrow or selfish view they have despite it being a bad action, but the word “necessary” can’t be stressed enough when it comes to such an act.

So I personally favor those who prefer being humane and nice to many as oppose the few—anyone who violates that can reap what they sow for all I care. That might be considered cynical at best and bloodthirsty at worst than what others would prefer, but I tend to call that karma that could have been easily avoided in most cases.

[Tani Coyote]

http://www.fox5atlanta.com/national-news/republican-david-yancey-wins-virginia-house-seat-after-named-pulled-from-bowl

The Virginia House seat that was tied has been given to the GOP by a random drawing, giving them a 51-49 majority.

However, the Democrat still can request yet another recount if she wishes. She hasn't said whether or not she will do that.

The irony is she offered to make a pledge to not contest the result with the Republican, but was ignored. Sure the Republican is regretting that now.

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/04/politics/trump-giuliani-gorsuch/index.html

According to that new book trump is trying to suppress, Trump almost chose Rudy Giuliani over Gorsuch for the Supreme Court position. Jesus Christ, a Dem majority in the Senate cannot come soon enough.

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/04/politics/mark-meadows-jim-jordan-attorney-general-jeff-sessions-resign-op-ed/index.html

GOP lawmakers calling for Sessions to resign... because he did the right thing by recusing himself from the Russia investigation and stripping himself of power over it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/01/04/what-republicans-are-saying-about-jeff-sessions-war-on-marijuana/?utm_term=.a52a15c1ae1a

Meanwhile, other GOP lawmakers are actually doing good and are coming out against Sessions' marijuana decision. Cory Gardner, Lisa Murkowski, Rand Paul, and Dean Heller have all criticized the marijuana decision, believing that it should be left up to the states. That's 4 GOP Senators, more than enough to change the law if they work with the Democrats.

There are also several House members coming out against the decision.

The main hurdle of a bipartisan bill is that Congressional majorities tend to only support legislation if the majority of their caucus supports it. And sadly the GOP cares more about prohibition than states' rights on this subject. Really shows how bullshit it is when they talk about it.

The good news is Cory Gardner is threatening to extort McConnell by saying he will hold up Department of Justice nominees until the decision is reversed. If he gets the support of one other Senator, McConnell has no bargaining position, and may be forced to bring marijuana decriminalization to a vote. Considering Heller and Gardner are both Republicans from legal pot states, that's a serious possibility.

The dreaded 60 vote rule is an issue, of course. However, ending prohibition would most certainly save the government money, and so could possibly be passed via reconciliation.

In the House, Paul Ryan has a mixed record on marijuana legalization, but seems interested in relaxing federal laws as a whole, which gives room for a compromise that could rollback Sessions' authority.

3 hours ago, Conquering Slay-bell Storm said:

Case in point, Dylann Roof. There was not a goddamn thing he did in killing nine people in a church that was called for, and I believe him as an evil person that should rightfully be put down like the dog he is.

Another case would be the militant group ISIS, whom’s actions are so many and generally well known that fucking al-Qaeda thought they went too far and and did a bunch of unnecessary shit that had little to do with their cause if not hurt it. The way I look at cases like this is a matter of people too entitled to the point that they’ll harm others just because they can and want to or because they don’t care of what damage they do even if a much better alternative would be more worthwhile—I say this because I believe in necessary evils that actually do some overall good to many as opposed to the few or to those that fit whatever narrow or selfish view they have despite it being a bad action, but the word “necessary” can’t be stressed enough when it comes to such an act.

An execution is not necessary, because by definition the person is captive and defenseless. They are no longer committing any harm simply by existing.

This is why we kill enemy soldiers in the heat of combat and it's excused, but to massacre prisoners of war is a war crime.

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So I personally favor those who prefer being humane and nice to many as oppose the few—anyone who violates that can reap what they sow for all I care. That might be considered cynical at best and bloodthirsty at worst than what others would prefer, but I tend to call that karma that could have been easily avoided in most cases.

But what about the world of good a person can do if they change?

This is, as discussed, the cornerstone of rehabilitative justice. It's why we support humane treatment of prisoners. Why we support alternative sentencing. It's rooted in a fundamental idea that not only are most criminals victims of the socioeconomic system, but that they have the capacity to become productive members of society with the right approach.

[KHCast]

Having the capacity to change and actually changing are two different things. Not everyone is gonna if you give them the opportunity. 

You know if we’re doing rollbacks of the legalization of marijuana, gotta wonder if the GOP is gonna at some point target even more serious shit like same sex marriage or god help us, reinstate shit like don’t ask don’t tell.  It’s clear they aren’t aiming for popularity anymore. And we have tons of gop officials that have spoke out against it.

[Tani Coyote]

Same sex marriage overturns will fall flat because moderate Republicans like Collins and Murkowski have come out in favor of gay marriage. Portman of Ohio has likewise come out in favor.

We'll see if moderate Republicans stick to their guns in the off chance (God forbid) that one of the liberal or swing justices' seats open up during Trump's term and block any candidate who would have far right views on the subject. In Murkowsi and Collins' case, there's plenty of reason to think they will, considering they have been adamant supporters of pro-choice legislation during their terms.

What we are currently seeing is the Presidency using the role given to it in the Constitution to drive national debate. But Congress has the power to rein Trump in just as it did Obama. The only hurdle is "majority of the majority" tendencies that are likely to hamstring liberal pushback efforts until the end of Trump's term.

The good news is a lot of Obama's "pen and phone" programs are overwhelmingly popular, and the pressure is on the GOP to reinstate them before the midterms arrive. Trump is making their job harder, forcing them to devote time to basically re-enact Obama's policies rather than pursuing GOP objectives.

Due to the campaign season, this year is likely to be less crazy in terms of legislation. I expect regular absences of GOP House members that will weaken Paul Ryan's bargaining position.

[KHCast]

40 minutes ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

We'll see if moderate Republicans stick to their guns in the off chance (God forbid) that one of the liberal or swing justices' seats open up during Trump's term and block any candidate who would have far right views on the subject.

I do recall one of trumps justice potential picks was that extremely homophobic fuck. Can’t recall his name though, but if that were to happen, you think he’s someone trump would once again consider?

[Tani Coyote]

2 hours ago, KHCast said:

I do recall one of trumps justice potential picks was that extremely homophobic fuck. Can’t recall his name though, but if that were to happen, you think he’s someone trump would once again consider?

Absolutely, he's Trump.

But Trump does on occasion listen to McConnell's advice (this is why Trump backed Strange over Moore in Alabama), and McConnell might warn Trump that Murkowski and Collins might sink the nomination of a homophobe.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

13 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

An execution is not necessary, because by definition the person is captive and defenseless. They are no longer committing any harm simply by existing.

This is why we kill enemy soldiers in the heat of combat and it's excused, but to massacre prisoners of war is a war crime.

In cases like Dylann Roof or similar, I honestly don’t care how defenseless they are when captive. In this day and age especially, they should know better.

And I certainly wouldn’t even put him anywhere remotely near the level of an enemy soldiers or a POW due to the sheer difference of the soldiers only targeting other soldiers often because they signed on and are willing to sacrifice themselves to defend others (which isn’t always the case, I know. But in principle they are) whereas Dylann attacked unarmed civilians for racist reasons and none of the principles of the former.

13 hours ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

But what about the world of good a person can do if they change?

I’m not above allowing people to redeem themselves despite their crimes and I won’t turn a blind eye to that despite the blood on their hands, but that’s only if they genuinely want and do change like the above cases you mentioned earlier.

I won’t lie and say I wouldn’t still be resentful, but it’s a whole different matter compared to somebody who never becomes the least bit remorseful.

[Tani Coyote]

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/06/politics/trump-daca-wall-immigration/index.html

Trump has stated he is willing to sign a DACA-themed bill provided it includes changes to the immigration system and funding for a border wall.

He will most likely be talked down from an extreme position by Ryan and McConnell.

The good news is that if he folds in any way on this, it is likely to alienate a lot of his base, who tend to have a "deport 'em all" mentality. #BurnMyMAGAHat was prompted, of all things, by reports Trump was willing to make a deal on immigration issues.

Although he entered office as a "dealmaker," so you would think they'd like him for that.

21 hours ago, Conquering Slay-bell Storm said:

In cases like Dylann Roof or similar, I honestly don’t care how defenseless they are when captive

That's how you get martyrs.

"The white genocide advocates slaughtered him like cattle" is a much better recruitment message than "the white genocide advocates threw him in a small cell where he has three meals a day, free healthcare, and periodic access to amenities that a lot of people don't have." Considering white supremacy is often built on the concept the government isn't doing enough for white people, seeing someone like Roof getting humane treatment is going to be a huge "huh?" moment on their part.

Let them stew for decades. Let them see how much people like them hold our society back.

If nothing else, say no to execution because the simple fact everyone has a different take on who deserves to get executed, which is going to lead to abuse.

[Dark Qiviut]

Dylann Roof being a convicted terrorist doesn't affect my position on the death penalty. It has no business in our justice system, period; and it should be banned under ALL circumstances. Too many innocent people have been executed, and we as a country should not have a government responsible for killing, too. Throw away the key? Fine, but executions cross the line into pure cruelty.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

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That's how you get martyrs.

You know what, fair enough.

Doesn’t change my view entirely as far as this case, because that “white supremacy” BS is people who should know better and are saying that to justify such criminal acts, but I can see the potential backfire when you put it that way.

Still wouldn’t bat an an eye—and would prefer— if he were put down.

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If nothing else, say no to execution because the simple fact everyone has a different take on who deserves to get executed, which is going to lead to abuse.

I’d be more likely to say no due to the mere hypocrisy of the justice system and how easy it is to throw innocent people of certain kinds into capital punishment for reasons that are obvious than because of different people having different takes on it.

[KHCast]

Kinda old, but still. This isn’t real right lol? Like fucking hell im just laughing now. Not even mad, this is just sad.