Favorite Sonic era

[shadowfan94]

Honestly, I played the gamecube games like SA1 and SA2 when I was 8-12, and looking back at them now I still love them. SA1 is my favorite game, and I know that's crazy, but I have weird tastes. The story is awesome, the voice acting really captured Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, etc. And Deem effing Bristow as Eggman, will always be the best Eggman IMO.(not sure if you're allowed to curse on here) I liked the maps and the levels and how you could replay them and do different tasks, the chao garden, playing the minigames and the casino and the kart racing, it really had a lot of content. I know the game's not perfect, but I think it gets way too much hate. Yes, Big is unplayable, they screwed up 1 out of 6 characters, 7 if you include Super Sonic. 

I keep thinking that maybe SEGA/Sonic Team keep making mistakes is because they never catch a break. When they do something right, it gets noticed to some degree, but no where near as much when they do something wrong. When a lot of fans don't like a part of a game, they get passionately ANGRY. Like, how is that going to help bring better games out? 

Another thing about SA1 was that even if it was better, people would still hate it because Sonic Team dared, oh, DARED to feature a mechanic besides Sonic running really fast. Like, how do people expect a Sonic game to have just that? The story mode would be 4 hours long at the best, because those kind of levels usually where Sonic just runs take about 5 minutes to beat, so they would have to make 40-60 levels just to make a semi-complete game. I liked treasure hunting as Knuckles, using Amy's hammer, flying around in Tails' tornado, and shooting the shit out of everything as E102. 

I just really like most of the gamecube games. SA1 and 2, Heroes, even Shadow was a mixed bag with some fun moments. Sonic Sega All Stars racing for the Xbox 360 was also good, couldn't get into the sequel. As for the 2D games, I've played a couple of them but it's just not my thing. I'm not much of a 2D person in general, don't know why. I did love Sonic Battle, though. It was like SSB for Sonic.

Basically, I think that if we want better Sonic games to include elements that would satisfy the majority, we need to let the company know when they do something right, so they do it again. If they only know what they did wrong, their games won't get better. Yes, people want Sonic running, and Colors and Generations dodged a few tomatoes for focusing on that. But I think Sonic games should have more, it just needs to be done right. Some people hate the supporting cast, but I love most of them and want to play as them again. Plus they need to fix Knuckles before he goes down in history as a retard because of what Boom did.

Sonic running is cool, but you have to admit that sooner or later that concept's shelf life will go dead. You can't make hundreds of games out of that one style. Unless we have Sonic run to another dimension with hundreds of interesting planets, and we can have games about Sonic running through those planets, but then what?

 

[Badnik Mechanic]

2 minutes ago, shadowfan94 said:

Another thing about SA1 was that even if it was better, people would still hate it because Sonic Team dared, oh, DARED to feature a mechanic besides Sonic running really fast. Like, how do people expect a Sonic game to have just?

Yes? 

It says Sonic on the box.

So why am I playing hot and cold aka Knuckles treasure hunting?

The fact is, a lot of the other characters in the adventure games are completely naff. In SA especially, Tails' levels are utterly pointless and dull, Knuckles' stages are tragically slow and boring and Amy has maybe one or two decent stages and then the rest are just pants. 

Even Iizuka and Naka have apologised for how Big's stages turned out!

E-102 has the only good gameplay out of the other characters, the rest are either completely flawed or have huge flaws in the gameplay.

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The story mode would be 4 hours long at the best, because those kind of levels usually where Sonic just runs take about 5 minutes to beat, so they would have to make 40-60 levels just to make a semi-complete game.

What a load of tosh.

I can remember first playing Sonic Adventure and finding that Sonic's stages were huge, some in fact took over 10min to complete because of how big they were and the fact you couldn't in a lot of cases just run right to the end. Examples which come to mind are... urm... urm... not ice cap zone, not casino night zone and Mystic Ruins with the stone snake stage.

Heck I can even remember some Sonic stages taking ages when the HD versions came out because I'd completely forgotten about the level layouts.

And the whole four hours thing. Who cares? If the gameplay is good, the level design is good, if it's 4 hours long and has an entertaining story and the price point is matched to reflect that, what's the problem?

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Sonic running is cool, but you have to admit that sooner or later that concept's shelf life will go dead. You can't make hundreds of games out of that one style. Unless we have Sonic run to another dimensions with hundreds of interesting planets, and we can have games about Sonic running through those planets, but then what?

Based on the content of the OP, I'm assuming this means 'We need more characters to play as otherwise the games will get dull'

Do we even need to list the games which prove this statement completely false? 

Do we even need to go into the argument about how just adding characters with random abilities isn't the answer to making interesting and compelling game-play? 

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Plus they need to fix Knuckles before he goes down in history as a retard because of what Boom did.

Yeah... totally Booms fault.

[pppp]

14 minutes ago, shadowfan94 said:

Another thing about SA1 was that even if it was better, people would still hate it because Sonic Team dared, oh, DARED to feature a mechanic besides Sonic running really fast. Like, how do people expect a Sonic game to have just that? The story mode would be 4 hours long at the best, because those kind of levels usually where Sonic just runs take about 5 minutes to beat

 

3D Mario games have only one core gameplay style and they have tons of content, making them really long. 3D World in particular has 4 playable characters and did it without having to do things that don't have any business being in a Sonic game.

If Sonic Team can't make a lot of levels based around one mechanic like other developers do, then they're just not very good developers.

[shadowfan94]

49 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Yes? 

It says Sonic on the box.

So why am I playing hot and cold aka Knuckles treasure hunting?

The fact is, a lot of the other characters in the adventure games are completely naff. In SA especially, Tails' levels are utterly pointless and dull, Knuckles' stages are tragically slow and boring and Amy has maybe one or two decent stages and then the rest are just pants. 

Even Iizuka and Naka have apologised for how Big's stages turned out!

E-102 has the only good gameplay out of the other characters, the rest are either completely flawed or have huge flaws in the gameplay.

 

So it says Sonic on the box, therefore it shouldn't have something besides Sonic running for 4 hours each for 50 games.

Ok. 

No, seriously, that's um, uh, *interesting* logic. So I guess since there's games like Super Mario, Mario Kart, Mario party, you should only play as Mario and only do one thing the entire game for hours. Yeah, that'll keep the company going. SEGA and Nintendo would excell with you in charge. "Make Sonic run! Make Sonic run more! In this next game, have Sonic run a lot! What, a new game? Make Sonic run in even more levels! What, why are we going bankrupt? People are bored? But how?! Sonic is running!"

Also, Tails was not dull or boring. I personally had plenty of fun playing as him, racing against Sonic in the minigames, flying the tornado, and that final boss fight with Eggman was one of the best. Plus I really liked how they handled Tails' story and developed him. He learned that he could be brave on his own.

Knuckles is fun. Finding the pieces of the master emerald was enjoyable in both games. You had to use hints, and use the radar to find the pieces, and there were cool maps like Pumpkin Hill, Wild Canyon, Aquatic Mine. Tragically slow? You can beat them all in 4 minutes. And boring? There was plenty of variety. I think you're just biased, because you seem to want nothing but games of Sonic running. Tell me, how exactly, could they keep that one thing fresh? Maybe you just want Sonic Team to shut down.

And Amy's story mode was short, so "one or two stages" are a big chunk of the game. I thought she played fine. I enjoyed using her hammer to destroy robots, and having to constantly flee from the robot chasing her was an interesting element. You couldn't just stand around and collect rings. 

And Big? You're just repeating what I said. Everyone knows Big's gameplay sucks. EVERYONE. E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E. Again, he is one of 6 playable characters in a almost 20-year-old game. Let Sonic Team make a mistake for christ sake. I don't see what beating on a dead horse accomplishes, especially since I already state his gameplay was bad.

And yes, E102 is awesome. I'm glad you at least understand that much. But wait, I thought you wanted these games to have endless hours of Sonic running fast. In places. That keep it interesting. Forever. Yes, shouldn't you say E102 sucks?

49 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

 

What a load of tosh.

I can remember first playing Sonic Adventure and finding that Sonic's stages were huge, some in fact took over 10min to complete because of how big they were and the fact you couldn't in a lot of cases just run right to the end. Examples which come to mind are... urm... urm... not ice cap zone, not casino night zone and Mystic Ruins with the stone snake stage.

Heck I can even remember some Sonic stages taking ages when the HD versions came out because I'd completely forgotten about the level layouts.

And the whole four hours thing. Who cares? If the gameplay is good, the level design is good, if it's 4 hours long and has an entertaining story and the price point is matched to reflect that, what's the problem?

 

Um, excuse me? I know this is the internet and people tend to not be respectful to each other, but if you're going to call someone else's opinion "a load of tosh" simply because you don't agree with what they say, it just makes you look immature and people aren't going to want to debate with you. 

And, ok, 10 minutes? What's your point? They obviously didn't want to make an entire game out of his levels. And Sonic did a lot of things besides run. Like you said, casino, ice cap. So you're talking about virtually 10% of the game being what you liked, and how you expect it to be turned into a complete game and have that one feature for now on.

Uh, what? 

And I don't know about you, but I haven't heard of too many Wii U or Xbox One games that are 4 hours long and made people happy. Maybe a downloadable minigame would work.

 

49 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

 

Based on the content of the OP, I'm assuming this means 'We need more characters to play as otherwise the games will get dull'

Do we even need to list the games which prove this statement completely false? 

Do we even need to go into the argument about how just adding characters with random abilities isn't the answer to making interesting and compelling game-play? 

Wow, you are REALLY generalizing. Again, a lot of people love SA1, SA2, Sonic Battle, Sonic Heroes. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you speak for everyone.

It's not about the characters. Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Team Chaotix, etc, they're not the problem. There's a reason people want an Adventure 3 15 YEARS LATER. Because they want those aspects done write. That's the problem. Something is done incorrectly, and haters scream so much about it that SEGA never does it again. When they really just needed to do it the right way. Sonic 06, for example, had the right idea, but the execution was awful.

[Badnik Mechanic]

49 minutes ago, shadowfan94 said:

No, seriously, that's um, uh, *interesting* logic.

No this is interesting logic

likes(mary,food).
likes(mary,wine).
likes(john,wine).
likes(john,mary).

The following queries yield the specified answers.

 | ?- likes(mary,food). 
 yes.
 | ?- likes(john,wine). 
 yes.
 | ?- likes(john,food). 
 no.

Well actually, that's more basic logic, but it's logic. 

What I proposed was an argument based on my experience with programming and making videogames. 

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So I guess since there's games like Super Mario, Mario Kart, Mario party, you should only play as Mario and only do one thing the entire game for hours. Yeah, that'll keep the company going. SEGA and Nintendo would excell with you in charge. "Make Sonic run! Make Sonic run more! In this next game, have Sonic run a lot! What, a new game? Make Sonic run in even more levels! What, why are we going bankrupt? People are bored? But how?! Sonic is running!"

I'm honestly not sure how I should reply to this because what you've just written here reads like I'm back in primary school or nursery and someone starts an argument as to why their game is cooler than the other guys. But if you want to stick to that mandate then this little debate is going to be over very quickly as well as become quite embarrassing for you in a moment.

You're arguing 'Sonic 'running' in the game is boring, I want more characters with other gameplay styles, because based on your comments so far, you have to mix it up and give variety otherwise the game becomes dull and boring.

Yet you've completely ignored and factored out of this simplification the notion of game and level design which aid in the creation of interesting gameplay, it does not matter how many characters you have provided you build the support for the gameplay of one character and maintain that interest for the entire experience you wish to give.

Here's a very recent example. 

In this game, you are pretty much taught every single aspect of the game in the first 10min with the exception of one core aspect which comes at the end of the first hour. 

Within the first 10 min, you are taught how to feel the creature, how to run, jump, push, pull, activate switches, climb and call the creature. 

Within the first 10 min, you do some of the most common actions in the game, climb, use the creature to climb, navigate the environment and even use a special attack ability.

So why is it then, this game can last for around 10-15 hours and still maintain interest if the actions are so basic and are all taught and mastered in the first 10min? When all I'm doing is running around pulling switches and climbing things? 

Because the way the game is designed means you are never caught or trapped doing the same tricks or moves or problem solving techniques over and over. The level design is so good that the basic gameplay mechanics have absolutely tons of possibilities and the developers are clever enough to use that instead of what a bad developer would do and simply force the player to do the same moves or problem solving tactics in newly decorated areas.

Sonic is a platform game, the level design is the primary factor to support the gameplay, not diversifying gameplay mechanics as you are proposing, if this were a beat em up, then yeah, but it's not, it's a platform game. 

And you can look at any platform game, Mario, Crash, Spyro, Ty any platform game, good or bad which has a small or one character, provided that the game isn't a complete technical mess like Bubsy 3D, the key thing to their success or failure is pretty much down to the level design. Granted the gameplay mechanics or abilities of the playable character should be nailed down and make sense both contextually and within the technical world created. 

Essentially all what platform games are is an object which can do *insert said abilities* which are just programmable applications within the environment you have created, you have to create an interesting environment for that object to interact with.

Otherwise you just have a character which just can do X, Y and Z. But who cares if the character can do that unless you provide a full world for it to do it in.

 

....

 

So why therefore is one character who according to you, just apparently "running for 12 hours", who, no longer jumps, curls into a ball and increases speed on a downhill gradient, attacks enemies, is weak to certain enemies and objects depending on the state the object is in and everything else you have casually chosen to ignore... now boring?

Hmmm... what if we created an interesting environment for the player to navigate using those skills... and then what if we made a second environment, we could call it level 2, but instead of doing what we did in the second level, we change things just a little so it's not the same level in a new setting?

[Tara]

1 hour ago, Mayor D said:

Yeah... totally Booms fault.

In the interest of fairness, while Knuckles was a gullible dunderhead in Adventure/Adventure 2, he was taken with a certain degree of seriousness where, despite his faults, he was still a formidible fighter and ally (or adversary depending on what side of the story you were on).  At least, that's what the games wanted you to believe, even if the wonky writing didn't exactly support it very well.  By contrast, Boom Knuckles is deliberately moronic with little in the way of redeeming qualities aside from that.  He's supposed to be the Patrick Star-esque character, not just a bit of a goofball as he is in the classics and Adventure titles.  I think that's the point they were trying to make.

However, I tend to agree that Knuckles' personality started to decline long before Boom was even partially conceptualized, although I actually think the Boom cartoon writes full-idiot Knuckles a number of degrees better than Sega has ever written "somewhat serious but still kind of naive" Knuckles, and his goofy behavior tends to only compliment the rare occasion when he does have a shining moment.

[pppp]

36 minutes ago, shadowfan94 said:

One core gameplay style? Let's see, Super Mario Sunshine, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Golf, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Strikers, etc etc.

 

I meant the main series 3D platforming games developed by EPD Tokyo(The Galaxy team). Spinoffs do different things cause thats what spinoffs do. Sonic has done spinoffs as well, so they should keep fishing and GOW style brawling to spinoffs.

[Badnik Mechanic]

5 minutes ago, Tara said:

In the interest of fairness, while Knuckles was a gullible dunderhead in Adventure/Adventure 2, he was taken with a certain degree of seriousness where, despite his faults, he was still a formidible fighter and ally (or adversary depending on what side of the story you were on).  At least, that's what the games wanted you to believe, even if the wonky writing didn't exactly support it very well.  By contrast, Boom Knuckles is deliberately moronic with little in the way of redeeming qualities aside from that.  He's supposed to be the Patrick Star-esque character, not just a bit of a goofball as he is in the classics and Adventure titles.  I think that's the point they were trying to make.

Yeah you're right he is, but writing it like that is a lot better than a cheap throw away 'everything is Booms fault,' lets not forget, not very long ago we were calling Knuckles kinda stupid (at worst) and kinda gullible (at best) long before Boom was a thing.

[Tara]

2 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Yeah you're right he is, but writing it like that is a lot better than a cheap throw away 'everything is Booms fault,' lets not forget, not very long ago we were calling Knuckles kinda stupid (at worst) and kinda gullible (at best) long before Boom was a thing.

And by no means am I denying that.  I just don't think those screenshots from SA1 and 2 do that point justice, compared to something like the Riders games.

[shadowfan94]

Just now, Mayor D said:

Yeah you're right he is, but writing it like that is a lot better than a cheap throw away 'everything is Booms fault,' lets not forget, not very long ago we were calling Knuckles kinda stupid long before Boom was a thing.

I appreciate you trying to put words into my mouth and everything, but I don't remember saying that everything is Boom's fault, just that they screwed Knuckles up royally. Even if his character was getting worst in games like 06 and Ryders, they could've always redeemed that by going back to his roots in the next game and making him more laid back, serious, and intelligent like he was before. Even in Heroes and Shadow, he was moderately the same character as before. Games like 06 and Rivals, plus Sonic X, started to turn that tide and make him an idiot. But Sonic Boom delivered the crushing blow, IMO. Literally making him this big retard will be hard to fix, especially since Sonic Boom seems aimed at the next generation of fans. That is who Knuckles will be to them.

I learned a lot from this video detailing the rise and fall of Knuckles.

 

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, shadowfan94 said:

Basically, I think that if we want better Sonic games to include elements that would satisfy the majority, we need to let the company know when they do something right, so they do it again. If they only know what they did wrong, their games won't get better.

 

This is kind of already what happened. People pushed for classic gameplay and boost gameplay being the "right" way and guess what they're focusing on going forward? Those two things.

[Tara]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

boost gameplay being the "right" way

Forgive me for my ignorance, but does this allude to some Sonic 2017 news I haven't heard yet or what?  I've heard nothing of Sega attempt to revitalize the boost gameplay, though I admit I'm out of the loop.

[Badnik Mechanic]

3 minutes ago, shadowfan94 said:

 I don't remember saying that everything is Boom's fault,

It was in the OP.

1 hour ago, shadowfan94 said:

Plus they need to fix Knuckles before he goes down in history as a retard because of what Boom did

I assumed it was that because you'd not spoken about Boom or Knuckles up until that point so how else is anyone supposed to read that?

[shadowfan94]

1 hour ago, Mayor D said:

Well actually, that's more basic logic, but it's logic. 

What I proposed was an argument based on my experience with programming and making videogames. 

I'm honestly not sure how I should reply to this because what you've just written here reads like I'm back in primary school or nursery and someone starts an argument as to why their game is cooler than the other guys. But if you want to stick to that mandate then this little debate is going to be over very quickly as well as become quite embarrassing for you in a moment.

 

Um, what? How does any of this make sense whatsoever? You can't argue my points very well, so you keep talking down to me and acting like you know better because...reasons. I'm having a debate on an internet forum, not sure what about that translaters to "arguing why my game is cool than others". You're using examples and imaginary scenarios that are neither relevant nor make sense. And yet, I'm the one embarrassing myself? Oh lord....

[Badnik Mechanic]

2 minutes ago, Tara said:

Forgive me for my ignorance, but does this allude to some Sonic 2017 news I haven't heard yet or what?  I've heard nothing of Sega attempt to revitalize the boost gameplay, though I admit I'm out of the loop.

I want to say that there was something mentioned that suggested they were. But my memory is a bit fuzzy.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Tara said:

Forgive me for my ignorance, but does this allude to some Sonic 2017 news I haven't heard yet or what?  I've heard nothing of Sega attempt to revitalize the boost gameplay, though I admit I'm out of the loop.

There was a quote from Iizuka that said the game would be similar to Generations. Admittedly that's not a solid confirmation of Boost gameplay though, 

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2016/10/sega-project-sonic-2017-will-introduce-a-new-character-and-a-new-gameplay-component/

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

There was a quote from Iizuka that said the game would be similar to Generations. Admittedly that's not a solid confirmation of Boost gameplay though, 

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2016/10/sega-project-sonic-2017-will-introduce-a-new-character-and-a-new-gameplay-component/

To be fair though, your point still pretty much stands since the boost technically debuted in Sonic Dash and everybody raved and loved it, then it came to the 3D games and stuck around ever since. 

 

Edit: I meant to say Rush, not Dash.

 

[shadowfan94]

1 minute ago, Mayor D said:

It was in the OP.

I assumed it was that because you'd not spoken about Boom or Knuckles up until that point so how else is anyone supposed to read that?

Knuckles was dumbed down in changed in other games, but they could've fixed that in the next game. Sonic Boom made him even more dumb and changed the way he looked. Harder to fix, IMO.

I know you can't respond to my opinions without using insults and pretending like I'm an idiot, but I don't see what I've said that's incorrect. Other games have hurt Knuckles character, but Sonic Boom dealt a huge blow. 

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

The classic era is my favorite, and I say that as someone who didn't grow up with these games. Sonic Adventure onward is what I was exposed to until High School, where I decided to purchase the classics on the XBLA. The classic era is my favorite because mechanically it was the most competent. Narratively, it was simple yet engaging. Lastly the the franchise wasn't overflowing with an unnecessary amount of underdeveloped and uninteresting characters by this point. Granted, the characters in the classic era weren't really developed at all, but I'll take the silent protagonist over the mixed bag of characters we have now.

[Wraith]

I actually wasn't sure if this topic was asking us what our favorite era is or just the OP speaking about his favorite era, so I wasn't sure if the tangent was off topic or not.

[Tara]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

I actually wasn't sure if this topic was asking us what our favorite era is or just the OP speaking about his favorite era, so I wasn't sure if the tangent was off topic or not.

I mean, you're allowed to question and discuss the opinions of others, so it's not terribly off-topic as long as it still pertains to the statements about why this is the person's preferred era.  At least, that's how I see it.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Just now, shadowfan94 said:

I know you can't respond to my opinions without using insults and pretending like I'm an idiot, but I don't see what I've said that's incorrect. Other games have hurt Knuckles character, but Sonic Boom dealt a huge blow. 

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Um, what? How does any of this make sense whatsoever? You can't argue my points very well, so you keep talking down to me and acting like you know better because...reasons. I'm having a debate on an internet forum, not sure what about that translaters to "arguing why my game is cool than others". You're using examples and imaginary scenarios that are neither relevant nor make sense. And yet, I'm the one embarrassing myself? Oh lord....

With all due respect sir, I have answered your points and I've not insulted you, I've pointed out that I don't find your argument a good one and provided more than reasonable reasons as to why, not once have I insulted your character, however I do find these two posts or yours very ironic since you've ignored both my own argument, specifically the points I made regarding why game design and level design is more important than just putting more diverse characters and their accompanying gameplay styles in a game to make for compelling entertainment, as well as pppp who posted a similar response which you've ignored on every occasion so far and instead focused on minor things which are not part of the main issue here.

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You're using examples and imaginary scenarios that are neither relevant nor make sense. And yet, I'm the one embarrassing myself? Oh lord....

I'm tempted to ask if you could quote these imaginary scenarios that I've apparently talked about. But I'm pretty sure you beat me to that in your first reply to me... unless I really am now in charge of Sega/Nintendo?

I mean I did work on a game or two for them, as well as my own game and a few indie projects... but no can't say I have run a big company.

[MightyRay]

2 hours ago, shadowfan94 said:

Plus they need to fix Knuckles before he goes down in history as a retard because of what Boom did.

Can you please not use the word retard to describe someone being a goofball please. It's a highly degrading word for people who deal with mental illness, have behavioural or intellectual disabilities and is just a plain old tacky word.  

Knuckles maybe a goof or at times doesn't think things through or in Boom's case can be very oblivious but I wouldn't use that word at all to describe him.

So please be a bit more considerate in your word choices please.

This is a PSA from the Aussie person with Aspergers and Anxiety. Thank you. 

[SonicComicFanboy]

I think Sonic was at his best from around 1993-2004.  

[Tara]

4 minutes ago, SonicComicFanboy said:

I think Sonic was at his best from around 1993-2004.  

Going to ask that responses generally be more detailed and thorough.  Don't just tell us your preference.  Tell us why.  Thanks! <3