SATAM vs AOSTH

[Miko]

I wish Antoine wasn't pretty much a negative French stereotypes (snobery and cowardice) that offered little in the way of being a redeeming addition to the FFs. My thoughts always were growing up, if he only causes more problems why do they bring him along? I can understand why they added him to lighten the atmosphere of the show, but as much as Sally harped on Tails to go, you'd think she'd be reluctant to take disaster prone Antoine who can barely keep his heart in his chest the moment there's trouble. Archie DID make him grow out of the negative French stereotypes but then...he didn't really have anything to his character afterwards. He's become a rather bland character who just pines over Bunnie.

I liked the premise of SatAM better than I did AoStH. I never really thought that Sonic was intended to be an blind-your-eyes bright world. Even in the games, I felt there were bright times and dark times. So it doesn't bother me that it's a bit darker in tone. Interestingly enough when I played the games, I thought a tone like SatAM really fit but couldn't really say that for AoStH. But AoStH on the flip side didn't have a lot of the persistent baggage in it's execution that SatAM did (*coughs* Sally). I think if they put Sally to the backburner, made Tails more important, introduced a few characters that didn't show like Amy, Knuckles and Mina and dropped/ educed screentime for those who didn't really have a lot in the way of signifficance to the story (Ant, French stereotype and one of Sally's many followers...Dulcy too), and maybe did something with the chaos emeralds as well as a number of other game elements... It'd would've really fit the feel of the classics games. a lot more.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Miko

[Flyboy Fox]

You want to get rid of and/or push back Sal and Antoine... but include Mina? I can understand wanting to include Knuckles and Amy, but Mina, I don't get that choice. She's not interesting at all and she's a total walking cliche. I find it odd that you have such strong feelings against characters such as Sally and Twan, yet you seem to like Mina, who to me seems to be one of the most boring and uninspired of the lot ^^;

[AdventChild]

Never seen SatAM as a kid, but it looks/sounds more like a lighthearted BTAS or lighthearted with some mild/soft dark tones thrown in.

Though I liked AoSTH b/c of its randomness, and Looney Tune-y likeness. Also, it was pretty funny as well. Though NC's review and lyric theme was better *shot.

[Crystal Kingfisher]

It has one of my favorite Sonic characters (Antoine, even though his mini-episodes sucked)

You better not be saying Ro-Becca sucked. That is one of my favorite SatAM episodes ever. (my most favorite SatAM episode though is Blast to the Past parts 1 and 2)

Anyway, I like both AoStH and SatAM, but I like SatAM more because it focuses more on action (but with some comedy too), better storylines, and I love the Freedom Fighters (Antoine and Bunnie are my favs).

[Tornado]

So what?

So:

considering one of SatAM's main criticisms is that you could essentially remove the Sonic branding and absolutely nothing would change, they certainly don't help matters.

Someone might as well argue that the characters from the game universe are also stereotypes...

They are, but at times the characters of the games have actually gone through character development. Throughout the run of the show, the characters from SatAM remained largely static no matter what happened to them.

[Blazey Firekitty]

You want to get rid of and/or push back Sal and Antoine... but include Mina? I can understand wanting to include Knuckles and Amy, but Mina, I don't get that choice. She's not interesting at all and she's a total walking cliche. I find it odd that you have such strong feelings against characters such as Sally and Twan, yet you seem to like Mina, who to me seems to be one of the most boring and uninspired of the lot ^^;

On the one hand, I like Mina for her personality. She has kind of this "average joe" thing going for her that I can't remember any other character besides Rotor having.

On the other hand...I don't like the way her entire role in the story was, for the longest time, defined by her desire to marry Sonic. Even Amy had something else to bring to the table beside her love life, but Mina didn't seem to.

I think she could have been a decent recurring member of the cast if Karl Bollers had tried to develop her personality instead giving her random speed powers. But eventually he just wound up making her a pop singer and putting her in the background for some reason. Supposedly this was because he preferred Sonic with Amy.

Nonetheless, I don't think any Sonic character is truly awful outside of Sonic X's Chris Thorndyke. I think the main problem with Mina, in my eyes, at least, was that she was ultimately defined in terms of how she was related to Sonic. It was hard to imagine her going off and doing her own thing, unlike Tails, Sally, or Amy.

[Arrow]

I liked SatAM.

I hate most things about it when it comes down to remembering that it's Sonic, but as a cartoon I enjoyed it when I was little and still can now. It fits in my memory not with Sonic, but with other cartoons like the Biker Mice from Mars.

AoStH was just awful. It's not funny, and felt just as un-related to Sonic as SatAM did. I've never liked goofy cartoons.

I think story wise, SatAM was very good for what it was. I liked the cheesy darkness and I liked how Robotnik was in it.

[Flyboy Fox]

On the one hand, I like Mina for her personality. She has kind of this "average joe" thing going for her that I can't remember any other character besides Rotor having.

And I would have totally dug that if she wasn't super-fast AND a talented singer. Kinda ruins the whole 'average' thing ^^;

[Blazey Firekitty]

And I would have totally dug that if she wasn't super-fast AND a talented singer. Kinda ruins the whole 'average' thing ^^;

That's true. The way I see it, a character who could have been an excellent source of emotional support for the Freedom Fighters wound up being derailed by then editor Justin Gabrie's demand that Mina be part of a love triangle. We got the speed because Karl had been instructed by the editor to keep Mina close to Sonic, and we got the singing because Karl was getting sick of the triangle and wanted to end it.

[Leon K Fox]

I don't get where people are getting depth and character development from SatAM. Are we watching the same show?

It's called personal taste, look up the definition of the term.

[Tornado]

I know very well what personal taste is, thank you; and I don't really see how that completely applies. Sure, I'll give you plot depth as being subjective. Admittedly the show may just be shallow to me as I've seen dozens of various works that did the same overall premise far better than SatAM ever did; and thus SatAM isn't very good in that respect simply because I know there are better examples using similar premises than a show trying to deal with complex adult themes by writing them in the most child-friendly way possible (that would mean it was pretentious, but you oddly didn't seem to want to pick a fight with those who actually came out and called the show that).

And sure, what kinds of character development occur and whether they are beneficial are very much so subjective and a matter of personal taste, respectively. But the actual occurrence of character development over the course of the show isn't a terribly subjective thing when it is easy to tell whether it happens or not simply based on the character's personalities as each episode passes.

Also, if you want to get snooty with me, at the very least back yourself up with examples (something that my post should have made pretty obvious that I was looking for in the first place) so we can actually discuss them. Its fun to debate. It isn't fun to take part in bitch-fests.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Tornado

[Blazey Firekitty]

I can't speak for the other characters, since I haven't seen all of the series yet, but I don't personally feel that Bunnie is a stereotype. She had an accent that made her sound like she was from the American South, and sometimes the show kind of seemed to make a joke out of that, but there was still more to her personality than "I'm Southern, y'all." I wouldn't say she's bursting with depth, but wouldn't call her one-dimensional, either.

[Tornado]

I can't speak for the other characters, since I haven't seen all of the series yet, but I don't personally feel that Bunnie is a stereotype.

Neither do I, honestly.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Neither do I, honestly.

Oh, cool!^^

Basically I see Bunnie as being this character who's generally kind and optimistic, but sets standards too high for herself, and thus has a tendency to place a bigger burden on herself than necessary. She'll go out into the field and be a competent fighter, she'll be a loyal and generous friend, but at the same time she's really insecure about being a cyborg, even if none of her friends are bothered by it.

[Sean]

Bunnie is awesome. One of my favorite female Sonic characters, though I didn't appreciate the self-nihilistic attitude that she developed over time about her robotic limbs in the Archie comics. She started out excited at first, willing to help out the Freedom Fighters with her newfound powers, but at least up to where I read, she began to regret them and treat her limbs as some sort of parasite (cursed with awesome). I can't remember if she ever got over this depression of hers.

[Blazey Firekitty]

She started out excited at first, willing to help out the Freedom Fighters with her newfound powers, but at least up to where I read, she began to regret them and treat her limbs as some sort of parasite (cursed with awesome).

I feel that the main problem with Bunnie in the Archie comics was that her development was backwards. Had she been afraid of her limbs at first and then grown to love them, that would have been great.

Instead we go from her delightfully turning a curse into a gift...to being depressed.

She seems to have mellowed out after her recent marriage, though.

[Sean]

I feel that the main problem with Bunnie in the Archie comics was that her development was backwards. Had she been afraid of her limbs at first and then grown to love them, that would have been great.

Instead we go from her delightfully turning a curse into a gift...to being depressed.

I agree! This is the kind of development that I would have expected to have happened the other way around. It would have been very uplifting had she learned to adapt to this predicament over time, and to love herself for who she is regardless of her curse.

Also, Bunnie got married to Antoine? Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Then again, knowing her current (?) emotional state, it probably wasn't the happiest of occasions.

[Toby]

Actually, it was a very happy occasion for her, considering she was getting married to the REAL Ant. =p

[Miko]

Also, if you want to get snooty with me, at the very least back yourself up with examples (something that my post should have made pretty obvious that I was looking for in the first place) so we can actually discuss them. Its fun to debate. It isn't fun to take part in bitch-fests.

Tornado, you haven't cited these better executed examples and what they specifically executed better for anyone to debate you in the first place.

I find it odd that you have such strong feelings against characters such as Sally and Twan, yet you seem to like Mina, who to me seems to be one of the most boring and uninspired of the lot ^^;

Well if you find Mina boring, that's your opinion I guess?

And I would have totally dug that if she wasn't super-fast AND a talented singer. Kinda ruins the whole 'average' thing ^^;

1. Mammoth Mogul was the one who allowed Mina to BE super fast. So if Mogul never exists in SatAM (and by God why would anyone want that God Mod in the storyline) then Mina will not have ever had super speed. Although I wouldn't mind if she were a little fast, but terribly clumsy like she is in the comics. initially she didn't like Sonic, clumsy, and was a target for being picked on by him. I think she actually has a lot of the redeeming aspects about Antoine without the drooling over Sally (creating another unwanted love triangle centered around her of all people, won't Amy fans just love that) and disrespecting French people in of all things a kids cartoon. It's one thing to do that in a cartoon geared at adult audiences, but these are kids. You wouldn't feasibly find that on television today, and given that many kids are impressionanable to what they learn on TV (especially thanks to parents being so overworked they can't watch their kids), they may internalize it. If Mina needs to go a little faster than normal, can't they do something like roller skates or something? That's a pretty average way to increase speed.

2. The singer aspect, I don't mind as much. You can still be a singer for a small village and have the appeal of a normal person. It's when you start taking that kind of idea and making it grandiose to the level of mega pop-star where we have problems. Me? I wouldn't mind if her music abilities had some kind of purpose to the story in the sense of a bard or a songstress. Or if not just emphasize her babysitting gig with Rosie and leave it at that, I guess. If she had any weapons or abilities I'd see them in such an instance based off of toys or other appliances she usually uses dealing with her job as a routine babysitter.

I think the main problem with Mina, in my eyes, at least, was that she was ultimately defined in terms of how she was related to Sonic

This wasn't always the case actually. A big problem with people who look at Mina's character like this is that they only look at things from one point in the character's history. It'd be like telling a Sally fan to only look at her character from the slap and the melodrama following it. Or the fact that Sally herself didn't have an agenda outside of love either at some periods of the comics. Heck I'm still baffled as to why she's back on the field. At first Mina was totally consumed with her family and the loss she suffered because of their absence. We started seeing problems when everybody got their families and "freedom" back midway into the triangle. There was suddenly nothing left for most of the characters to fight for and so Mina's direction took a shift in worrying about her relationship to the only friend she'd made in Knothole. As an "average girl" not fighting any bad guys and having nothing to eventually draw up arms over what left was there to do? I think a mistake was in only giving Mina Sonic for a friend. I personally could've seen her great friends with Amy. But anyway, technically Mina fought in 125 and was selected to do battle in Sonic's Angels which hints that presently she DOES have the capacity to freedom fight for the right reasons...even though Sally can pretty much go to pow wow with friends on a playgr-- I mean battlefeild and nothing ever happens to her.

In SatAM there's a disconnect when it comes to the problem of "family" being a motive to fight. These teens have been away from their parents for over a decade and have learned to live their lives without them. In Tails' case he's probably never even known his. They spent their whole childhoods without them and most of us can barely remember life as 5 year olds, let alone someone who left us at that age. So the FFs fighting for freedom? Sure, that I can understand. But fighting to avenge lost family, etc? No. That's not an angle they can play convincingly, although Mina who lost her family at the age of 15-16 (much more recently), I can understand. I do find in comparison that her motive is much different. She's fighting for family and if she ever got to connect with the FFs like a family it'd probably be to protect the new family she's made for herself. Even if that motive weren't incredibly original you'd probably be booting off the entire cast for sharing it. In Archie the concept of parents being reintroduce has not been well received and has effectively helped to further screw over the bonds between main characters. If Mina were in SatAM I'd see her agenda being family and friends.

But eventually he just wound up making her a pop singer and putting her in the background for some reason. Supposedly this was because he preferred Sonic with Amy.

Yes, Mina AND Sally were going to be pushed to the backburner. Sally breaks up with Sonic and Mina is shoved with a pop career and boyfriend. Sonic was going to be in a love triangle between Amy and Fiona (Fiona obviously doomed to lose) while ducking and dodging Sally too. Somewhere along the line I think SEGA would've put an end to his ideas.

We got the speed because Karl had been instructed by the editor to keep Mina close to Sonic

The speed was emphasized, the biggest is because consciously the writers couldn't think of anything to give her to pair her with Sonic that Sally did not already have. This goes back to Sally being a catch-all foil and this isn't a problem only Mina's had to deal with.

I don't personally feel that Bunnie is a stereotype.

Southern...Belle. XP

Edited August 11, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

I agree! This is the kind of development that I would have expected to have happened the other way around. It would have been very uplifting had she learned to adapt to this predicament over time, and to love herself for who she is regardless of her curse.

Yeah, that would have been great! I feel like a lot of fun stories could come out of her if she were written that way.^^

Southern...Belle. XP

In retrospect, I could have worded that better.^^;; While Bunnie does embody a stereotype, I don't feel she is defined by it. She seems more about her self-esteem problems and how she does or does not overcome them.

Edit: Looking over Miko's post, I agree that Mina should have been given other friends besides Sonic and that she would have had good chemistry with Amy. I think it would have been nice to have seen more of Mina's mom(Well, after she got rescued). She reminded me of Vanilla the Rabbit, in a good way. Very calm and gentle.

Edited August 11, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Picchi]

she's a total walking cliche.

Actually, I didn't think Mina was as trite when compared to most Sonic characters, but that's besides the point. Sally, majority if not all of the Freedom Fighters AND game characters are based on concepts that have been done time and time again, so they're not really all that "original" themselves. You're going to need to elaborate better than that.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Picchi

[Blazey Firekitty]

Actually, I didn't think Mina was as trite when compared to most Sonic characters, but that's besides the point. Sally, majority if not all of the Freedom Fighters AND game characters are based on concepts that have been done time and time again, so they're not really all that "original" themselves. You're going to need to elaborate better than that.

I think pretty much all Sonic characters could be considered cliche in some way. It's a pretty simple action adventure franchise that relies, for better or worse, on common archetypes.

I wouldn't say it makes the series bad. Just that it shares a lot in common with other action adventure stories.

[Sean]

Actually, it was a very happy occasion for her, considering she was getting married to the REAL Ant. =p

I was pretty happy when he turned out to not be the real Ant. Giving him a gritty/edgier vibe (and with an annoying scar to boot) put me up in rage for a while and I think I stopped reading the comics (for a while) solely for that single development.

It didn't really strike me that it could have been Evil Ant... I mean they changed Knothole and Rotor's appearance for gawd's sake.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I was pretty happy when he turned out to not be the real Ant. Giving him a gritty/edgier vibe (and with an annoying scar to boot) put me up in rage for a while and I think I stopped reading the comics (for a while) solely for that single development.

Heh, I can see why you'd feel that way. The whole "Darker, War scarred Ant" thing seemed sloppily handled and poorly explained.

Edited August 11, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Sean]

Yeah. Come to think of it, that was one of the very last issues of Sonic that I bought (though I was only following the series on and off for a while). As soon as I saw that development I went "oh god fuck it all" and just stopped reading for a while.

I think Bunnie and Antoine are cute together (and I normally don't support shipping or romance in Sonic at all, this is probably the only exception). They're both a little dorky and compliment each other well, though even though I find it a cute pairing, I would still prefer to see them act like a tag-team of two silly best friends, rather than lovey-dovey yucky stuff. I don't know if that's how they really act now, I haven't been keeping up with the comics.

As for having Mina in SatAM? Argh. From what I've read of her (and I'm doubtful that she's changed any) she's just an annoying Mary Sue who has super speed and pretty looks and a nice singing voice only to woo Sonic over for a while which set up some annoying romantic subplots in the issues 90+ range and aaaaaarse. Mina can fuck right off. I even tolerate Amy more!