SATAM vs AOSTH

[Blazey Firekitty]

I would still prefer to see them act like a tag-team of two silly best friends, rather than lovey-dovey yucky stuff. I don't know if that's how they really act now, I haven't been keeping up with the comics.

Yeah, just having kissing and "lol you're hot" dialogue would get boring fast. Their emotions would feel more real if they acted more like you're describing.^^

[Miko]

I think Bunnie and Antoine are cute together (and I normally don't support shipping or romance in Sonic at all, this is probably the only exception). They're both a little dorky and compliment each other well, though even though I find it a cute pairing, I would still prefer to see them act like a tag-team of two silly best friends, rather than lovey-dovey yucky stuff. I don't know if that's how they really act now, I haven't been keeping up with the comics.

I can't stand Bunnie/Antoine. Firstly Bunnie and Antoine don't seem like they have a whole lot of chemistry. Bunnie simply hangs to him because she has a low opinion of herself, bases her worth on her appearance and is willing to cling to a guy who calls her pretty. Bunnie needs to learn to love herself and not to find her worth rooted in her physique. It's a journey most girls could've learned a great deal from, but dropped like a sack of potatoes so she can get married off.

As for having Mina in SatAM? Argh. From what I've read of her (and I'm doubtful that she's changed any) she's just an annoying Mary Sue who has super speed and pretty looks and a nice singing voice only to woo Sonic over for a while which set up some annoying romantic subplots in the issues 90+ range and aaaaaarse. Mina can fuck right off. I even tolerate Amy more!

If you want to call her a Mary Sue, you could at least explain why you think she's a Mary Sue. As for what you said:

1. Mina's looks are comparatively average. Yes, she could grab a guy's attention if she buttered herself up a bit (see issue 120) but generally guys don't fall in love with her on sight like say Sally who seems to have uncharacteristically good looks despite not trying to put on a lick of make up. It's actually a motto of hers not to worry about her appearance. As for the singing, that doesn't mean she contorts the plot. People being phobic of musicians because some moron told them it's a Mary-Sue trait when it has nothing to with a character bending the logic of the plot is silly. But Sonic just so happened to stumble on Mina in the shower singing... if he never caught it then it'd be a non issue. SatAM doesn't HAVE to address it.

2. Again your basing your entire view of Sonic's relationship to Mina by ONE point in the comic's history. Nevermind the fact there was a point in the story where she did not like the guy or wanted to if anything become better than him. Nevermind the fact that he used to tease her a bit. If Mina had a friend besides Sonic that like everyone in the village, admires him, you might be able to get something in the way of competition which might be a bit fun to watch considering Mina has ways to go to catch up.

3. I think people are evaluating Mina too much on physical abilties and not her character. If she was mishandled by Archie ok, got the memo. So has every character to ever grace it at some point. But that doesn't mean her personality couldn't be a nice addition.

4. You're ignoring differences in storyline. If Mogul is responsible for Mina's speed in Archie and he doesn't exist in SatAM then Mina wouldn't have super speed for it to even be worth discussing. Secondly, Mina's speed was only about as fast as Tails. So that'd essentially be saying Tails is a Gary-Stu that shouldn't stick around anymore. That and she's well..clumsy. So even if she were fast it wouldn't be like she could take Sonic's spotlight.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Miko

[Sean]

If you want to call her a Mary Sue, you could at least explain why you think she's a Mary Sue.

i dno lol

I hadn't read Archie for a while when I got back into it at around issue 90 or so. When I do, suddenly I see this yellow/purple boring thing who keeps having her hair blown to the side by the wind and building up romantic tensions between the Sonic/Mina/Sally love triangle. After reading more issues with her character, I stopped paying attention to her altogether.

Presto, instant negative impression of an annoying character over the span of like ten issues without knowing of her backstory or future development. Frankly I think the former is irrelevant; if her character (or lack thereof, gyuh-huh) is annoying, then neither story nor insecurities would affect my opinion of her. First impressions are everything, after all! Even from everything you've wrote, I see nothing there that could possibly change my view of her, unless Archie gave her a major overhaul or something.

Although her character design isn't really half-bad.

[Miko]

I hadn't read Archie for a while when I got back into it at around issue 90 or so. When I do, suddenly I see this yellow/purple boring thing who keeps having her hair blown to the side by the wind and building up romantic tensions between the Sonic/Mina/Sally love triangle. After reading more issues with her character, I stopped paying attention to her altogether.

That's not a Mary Sue, Jake. That's not liking the fact she created romantic tensions between Sonic and Sally. A lot of your perceptions are built mid way into her history during the triangle too.You say you like Antoine which is a bit ironic considering that Mina and SatAM Antoine are very alike in some respects. Both wanted to challenge Sonic, both were incredibly clumsy, both incredibly pretentious etc. Although Mina's pretentious in the sense she lies for harmony whereas Antoine pretty much lies to inflate his accomplishments. I think if they'd kept to their initial model of Sonic teasing Mina, Mina trying to clumsily catch up to Sonic and failing and giving her another friend to arouse a friendly competition over, we probably would be set when it comes to those two I think. She didn't always like him (or at certain points of her history hasn't been able to admit to the fact she likes him, either). So adapting that idea wouldn't be difficult for a cartoon and if Mina had someone to compete over, that'd probably shift a great deal of her focus from thinking about romance. That and in SatAM there's no return of family and etc to mar up the idea Sonic and co are fighting to earn something back. I liked the idea of Sonic having a female character sowing the seeds for that kind of a challenge to Sonic and without being so overbearing to the story that the others can't seem to get a word in. I also think she's also a good foil to the incredibly outspoken brutally honest kind side of Sonic's character.

if her character (or lack thereof, gyuh-huh) is annoying, then neither story nor insecurities would affect my opinion of her

My problem with you saying so far this is that you've merely been discussing the context surrounding the character, you haven't shown a great deal of knowledge on her actual characterization and how it could be applied to different contexts. I'm not really under the impression that Mina's ONLY friend would be Sonic, considering she's doesn't have the kind of personality that would alienate everyone to the exception of him. I think a great deal of her problems stemmed from the fact that Karl didn't want to let her branch out despite the fact that she probably should've.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Miko

[Picchi]

Karl didn't look like he knew what he was doing with her directionwise, period. He seemed to have some romantic plans for Sonic and Amy, but what with SEGA "supposedly" demanding Ian to make her like her game counterpart, theres a chance his ideas for her would not have ended well, and he would've gone back to Mina anyway.

The problem with many of the writers was that they would make a plot gimmick and drag it for too long. Ken's was family secrets, ___ isn't ___, and robo-clones amongst a few other things whereas Karl's was more geared towards romantic drama a lot of the time.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Picchi

[Sean]

I wasn't about to go on explaining why I thought Mina is a Mary-Sue, as the last thing I wanted was to get into an argument over Archie Sonic, considering my limited knowledge of the series (which I've admitted multiple times), I'm only going by what I have seen of her before I officially called quits on the series. But hey, I might as well anyway. From what I gathered of her, Mina felt shoehorned in, I never got any indication of what her proper (and substantial) role was in the issues I've read with her from issues 90 to 100. Although you say that she is average and homely, that isn't what I got from her, what I got was this little brat with super speed and was properly written in (at the time) to be a contender for Sonic's love interest, played up to full scale in issue 99 (the colossal train wreck that that story arc was), and whatever "flaws" of her were played up in order to make her supposedly more enduring. Clumsiness is a common trait in characters, especially of the anime variety, in order to make a girl more enduring to the audience, and it didn't seem to me that it was being presented as a flaw that I had to consider.

As little as ten issues of exposure may seem, I deem it to be enough for me. I was a "new reader" by the time I got into the whole Mina thing, and she left a bad impression on me that hasn't gone away ever since I had stopped reading the comics at the time. Even if she isn't the Mary-Sue that I had gathered in my short bout with her, from what I have seen of her in later comics, she still seems as boring and uninspired as she ever was. I may be wrong about Mina being a Mary-Sue, but I certainly am not wrong about Mina being among the most dull characters to ever grace the comic, her backstory and flaws be damned.

Anyway, I'm not knowledgeable enough to really continue this any further, I'm ignorant of the majority of the issue 130+ range as it is and it's probably going to be a while before I even catch up to that area.

[Phos]

What is this argument doing in this thread?

[Picchi]

Admittingly, I didn't really care much for her until #120-123 when they elaborated on her personality so I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't like her observing through that period. Its also funny that you mention that you put the book down at around the time of the #90s. I was actually about to do the same thing, since I wasn't really interested in any of the characters.

Mina was perhaps the only reason I wanted to keep reading, and when they butchered her again I steadily lost interest. Nowadays I only read to keep informed.

What is this argument doing in this thread?

I think it stemmed from the idea of Mina being in SatAM, which I personally don't think would be bad so long as people don't fall into the same plot mistakes the other writer made.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Picchi

[Miko]

From what I gathered of her, Mina felt shoehorned in, I never got any indication of what her proper (and substantial) role was in the issues I've read with her from issues 90 to 100.

Mina's initial appearance was in 76. Most people who complained about her being a shoehorned addition were ironically, those who didn't pick up her actual intro story and instead picked up around the 90s. A role is really what the character is supposed to mean to the hero. for Mina, she wanted to be Sonic's equal (and failed) and love interest. Some people don't have to like it, but I was never personally all that bothered with it

Although you say that she is average and homely, that isn't what I got from her, what I got was this little brat with super speed and was properly written in (at the time) to be a contender for Sonic's love interest, played up to full scale in issue 99 (the colossal train wreck that that story arc was),

I don't really care about her being homely or normal. As a matter of fact trying to butter her up by saying such things, in addition to what you've been saying Jake is a mistake in the sense it's just is a critique of context, not characterization. You don't like her being a love interest (though I really don't see the problem with it) and you don't like her having speed. Ok. But all the external tidbits you've mentioned can be removed or altered (like her speed for instance) while maintaining the gist of the character. So in spite of what your saying, it's not showing the character behind all the powers and bad plot points cannot work. This is why, anytime I've complained about a character, I don't base my dislike for them purely on the context surrounding them. Nor do I think a surrounding context is enough to make a boring personality all that interesting. A problem I have with Knuckles. You can butter up his backstory all you want but if he's hollow as a character, then I don't care.

and whatever "flaws" of her were played up in order to make her supposedly more enduring. Clumsiness is a common trait in characters, especially of the anime variety, in order to make a girl more enduring to the audience, and it didn't seem to me that it was being presented as a flaw that I had to consider.

You mean endearing. Enduring is something everyone with a flaw must do because of how it affects their lives. In anime it may be cute, but in the west stuff like that sort of lacks being portrayed with such an aesthetic appeal. That and I don't recall my mentioning that it was a flaw. I think if I had to cite flaws (or flaws in the making) some would include the idea stealing can be ok, her pretentiousness and that she loses her resolve a lot without encouragement or advice.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Miko

[Phos]

Mina seems to take more styling cues from anime than western cartoons, so I don't think she'd be a good choice. Her hair would probably be expensive to animate, and unless I'm mistaken, she would be the only clothed female. Oh wait, bunney wore clothes. Man, this show's character design was a bit of a mess, they couldn't seem to remain consistent on such a simple thing.

Maybe so many people fall for Sally becaue she's walking around nude. As far as I know, she's the only female still dressing like this.

[Sean]

Mina's abilities are annoying, but the real reason why I dislike her is because she's dull. I'm not sure how else to elaborate on this... D:

[Miko]

Just draw her hair without a great deal of detail and and give her a wardrobe change and you'd be set to go then. Though really I think SatAM would have to be remade. Animation standards have sort of...gone up. That and with characters like Amy, she'd look even more out of place than Mina would. So I think if anything the SatAM cast should get redesigned.

Mina's abilities are annoying, but the real reason why I dislike her is because she's dull. I'm not sure how else to elaborate on this... D:

If you can't really base your opinion on her personality, then I can't really discuss it much further Jake. and when I say that, I mean demonstrating some kind of support from within the comic to shows you understand it. Anyone can say a character's boring. But not everyone can say that while demonstrating enough knowledge in the comic to show they understand it.

Maybe so many people fall for Sally becaue she's walking around nude. As far as I know, she's the only female still dressing like this.

In Archie it seems like a cultural thing that allows nudity. In SatAM Sally seems out of place because every other female has clothes. I used to wonder why people thought she was a slut, but reflecting back on it again I guess I can see their qualms.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Miko

[Sean]

If you can't really base your opinion on her personality, then I can't really discuss it much further Jake. and when I say that, I mean demonstrating some kind of support from within the comic to shows you understand it. Anyone can say a character's boring. But not everyone can say that while demonstrating enough knowledge in the comic to show they understand it.

Personally, I think I've already "demonstrated" enough. Her personality didn't appeal to me. She did nothing of interest in the time I spent reading the issues with her in it (although this wouldn't have really mattered had I actually liked her as a character, considering Big the Cat never does anything in the Sonic games but I like him anyway for his charming personality and mannerisms). Sorry I'm not able to keep up this discussion, but I don't have to write a thesis about this, do I? I'd rather spend as little time thinking about Mina as possible, really. I'm not trying to be snarky or rude here - I just honestly don't know how else to go about this matter.

If you're looking to have me elaborate my views on a character in a multi-page essay with proper citations, then I can't be arsed.

[Picchi]

I think she means that she wants you to elaborate on why.

[Miko]

>.o I think a lot of people have already said their thought on AoStH. I don't know what route hasn't been exauhsted although I wonder if there could've been a cartoon to incorporate both ideas.

[Sean]

An AoStH/SatAM cartoon hybrid? The early issues of Archie were basically that, if that's anything to go by. They carried the setting and characters of SatAM while sporting campiness and goofiness (that wasn't exactly very enduring to begin with)... I'm not sure if I really want to see anything like it again.

[-Mark-]

Hmm, I'm split down the middle, personally. I have both series' DVD box sets, watched them once each, and am yet to rewatch either in two years. In the case of AoStH, it's just outright too long a series to really 'rewatch' from start to finish, but rather pick at random episodes as and when the mood strikes.

I do like SatAM's stronger plot (although the episodic, filleresque nature of the first series makes it seem something of an unnecessary waste, considering series two of SatAM flows much more in terms of plot), but you can't deny that the series is pretty much Sonic in name only, as others have said.

Although I think my main dislike in SatAM was actually how Sonic's character was written- he was a loud, extroverted and downright obnoxious, egotistical prat- without a doubt (in my opinion) the most cringeworthily annoying incarnation of Sonic ever written, bar none. For all it's slapstick, silly comedy, I'd still feel more embarrased to be walked in on and seen watching Sonic acting as the epitome of cheesy-annoying 90s' 'cool' in SatAM than I would any episode of AoStH. Not that I'd exactly feel that embarrassed about either, but you get my drift.

I suppose they deliberately wrote Sonic as an extreme loose-cannon case so that Sally could serve as the 'sensible' one, but my god did it make Sonic irritating in SatAM.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Mahzes

[Tornado]

Tornado, you haven't cited these better executed examples and what they specifically executed better for anyone to debate you in the first place.

1. He didn't ask for clarification of any kind. He said, essentially, "Hey idiot, look in a dictionary."
   
2. He was the one who called me out on a throwaway comment without any backup of his own. I merely clarified my position in response.
   
3. I'm not the only one who expressed feelings that the show as a bit pretentious.
   
4. I did in fact explain why I felt the show was pretentious.
   
5. I did in fact explain what those other works did better than SatAM.
   
6. Me listing examples of better works would do absolutely nothing because that would be a subjective argument thrown at another one.
   
7. Me listing examples of better works would do absolutely nothing for the second half of my post.
   

So, no. I don't have to cite examples because I have already explained my reasoning behind the post. But what the hell, I'll do it anyways:

Works I've seen using the "Fighting Back an Oppressive Regime in a Dysotopian Setting" premise better than SatAM.

1. MAMista (Book, 1991) - Deals with rebels fighting against an oppressive South American dictatorship. Discusses the frivolousness of war, discusses human pride and its fallacy as a crutch against hopeless odds, and actually has character development as the characters come to realize these things. More effort is actually spent showing the actual struggle against said oppression. Main character of the book dies realizing that the whole affair was a waste.
   
2. Nineteen Eighty-Four (Book, 1949) - Deals with one man (and later, a woman as well) and his attempts to silently resist the long arm of a totalitarian (probably world) government by searching for the truth. Discusses the strength of human will, discusses of the strength of romantic bonds against self preservation, discusses the inability to tell what is real and what is fake without anyways to check for yourself. Main character betrays lover to save himself, is brainwashed and is implied to be executed.
   
3. Red Dawn (Movie, 1984) - Deals with a small group of teenagers using guerrilla tactics to fight off an invading yet overpowering Russian army. Discusses the impact of patriotism on free will, the erosion of morale due to a war of attrition, discusses the idea of collaboration with an enemy, discusses making the ultimate sacrifice to save a friend when there is no way for both to live.
   
4. Red Faction (Game, 2001) - Deals with a group of miners using guerrilla tactics to fight of an oppressive company/government on Mars. Discusses the abuse of power when nothing is in place to prevent it, discusses the human tendency to naturally look for a leader in difficult situations, discusses the inability to tell what is real and what is fake without anyways to check for yourself, discusses the importance of working together against oppression, discusses the atrocity of using human beings for science. Actually has a relatively happy ending.
   
5. Half Life 2 (Game, 2004) - Deals with a group of survivors and rebels from an alien invasion fighting what seems to be a hopeless battle simply for survival of the human race. Discusses the human tendency to naturally look for a leader in difficult situations, discusses the inability to tell what is real and what is fake without anyways to check for yourself, discusses the importance of working together against oppression, discusses the atrocity of using human beings for science, discusses the danger of corruption brought on by power, deals with the death of family, discusses the horrors of living without free will, discusses the horrors of biological warfare. Not actually over yet.
   

I could go on all week, but I think you get the point.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Tornado

[Arrow]

Animation standards have sort of...gone up.

They really have not.

I've been ill this week and watching tv a lot. The standards of things similar to SatAM have gone down dramatically in quality of animation, story and even voice acting. It's actually a little shcoking.

I watched some SatAM today too. It's worse than I recall it being. Lmao. But still fun.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Maybe so many people fall for Sally becaue she's walking around nude. As far as I know, she's the only female still dressing like this.

Well, you are technically clothed if you're wearing shoes and a vest.

[Flyboy Fox]

I didn't even really notice that she was 'nude' (or partially nude), since she was never drawn sexually in SatAM. She looked just as inconspicuous as the rest of the scantily clad cast of males, despite being a gal. It was only when she was drawn much more curvy and provocatively in certain parts of the comics that I can agree it looked a little... less wholesome.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I didn't even really notice that she was 'nude' (or partially nude), since she was never drawn sexually in SatAM. She looked just as inconspicuous as the rest of the scantily clad cast of males, despite being a gal. It was only when she was drawn much more curvy and provocatively in certain parts of the comics that I can agree it looked a little... less wholesome.

I mostly take issue with the days of Supermodel Sal because that sort of figure didn't make seem to make sense for her. I'm used to seeing her with a more athletic build.

Edited August 11, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Ebby]

I've never EVER liked SatAM. I've recently gotten into the comics and while they're a pretty good read and worth your time, they won't make me watch SatAM. I just find it boring. And I hate Sally's voice. O.o

Now, AoStH. That is something I would buy on DVD. I love that show! It had weird animation, it's simply retarded, Robotnik has a huge butt, and Scratch and Grounder are the best idiot henchmen ever. It makes me miss the 90s... when I wanted to watch cartoons.

[Indigo Rush]

I've never EVER liked SatAM. I've recently gotten into the comics and while they're a pretty good read and worth your time, they won't make me watch SatAM. I just find it boring. And I hate Sally's voice. O.o

Now, AoStH. That is something I would buy on DVD. I love that show! It had weird animation, it's simply retarded, Robotnik has a huge butt, and Scratch and Grounder are the best idiot henchmen ever. It makes me miss the 90s... when I wanted to watch cartoons.

I always thought Robotnik had a large fanny in, well, any continuity.

...'cept Sonic 2006.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Indigo Rush

[Flyboy Fox]

I always thought Robotnik had a large fanny in, well, any continuity.

Sorry... I snorted tea out of my nose at that XD; I'm not sure if you're aware, but in the UK 'fanny' has a rather. .. different meaning. OH GOD THE IMAGES.