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How you wish Sega would reintroduce multiple playable characters in a 3d Sonic game?


Dannymax440
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Off all the 'Make the other characters playable' comments I've seen, most of them never consider the word 'how'? This neat returning concept can have a butchered execution without direction like it did over a decade ago.
So exactly how should Sonic Team do this?Turn them to Sonic clones with level design utilizing their trademark abilities. Or a playstyle that has nothing to do with Sonic himself. And another important question is "how many characters to feature in the game?"
I hope fans become more specific to what they want in order to stop sending mixed signal to Sega who will get blamed if it sucks.
How would you want the multiple character gameplay style to feature in a new 3d Sonic game, and how many characters do you want?

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I like extra characters in Sonic games being an optional thing, and I usually don't like having different genres forced on me (most recently aside from Sonic, this is what drove me insane while playing Sly 3, and I never finished it as a result since I only barely tolerated the two additional gameplay styles in 2). So the only thing I can imagine is having everyone be a Sonic clone with one or two different abilities like in S3K.

I think having two, maybe three other unique non-Sonic characters is ideal, especially if they're unlockables throughout or after the main story. And while I know not everybody is gonna like it, I'm fine with additional certain characters being literal Sonic clones and serving as mere model swaps for him, like with Shadow and Metal Sonic, to cut down on the work Sega would have to do to program them beyond their animations.

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For multiple characters, like adding in Tails, Knuckles, Amy, etc etc, the level design formula has to change. How? I'd say is make the level as open as possible. Make 3 different routes that go to the same destination. Make shortcuts that require use of a character's ability to access. Example: Sonic can see one path ahead with a loop, and he can run through that. Tails can see a path above the loop, and fly up there. And he finds a new area on top of the loop that Sonic could not reach without great difficulty. Or there's an entirely new path hidden in a wall that only Amy's hammer can crash through, while Knuckles needs an upgrade in a later level to take that path.

Next thing is, for multiple characters, every character needs their own finish line in this huge level. You can't have a player play the same level multiple times, it's tedious and boring. Instead, give characters a finish line in different areas, in a route that makes use of their abilities. Then every character will feel like they have a unique playstyle instead of being a Sonic with some new ability. But the main goal must be finishing the level as fast as possible.

Last thing is every character needs to feel similar but unique. I've played around with this in character swapping mods in the Adventure games.
Example:
Sonic and Knuckles have horizontal power to help them move forward, while Amy and Tails have vertical power to help them move up.
Amy and Knuckles can attack but not spindash, while Sonic and Tails can spindash but not attack.
On a second jump, Sonic can do a homing attack, Tails can fly, Amy can double-jump, and Knuckles can glide.
Tails and Knuckles have abilities to stay in the air, Sonic and Amy do not.
Every character have their own unique upgrades.
These are just ideas, but they're all things to help them feel similar, but unique and different.

These can all help make multiple characters a thing.

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Sonic uses the SA1/2 Formula

Tails uses a mix between his SA1 and StH2006 Formula

Knuckles uses his StH2006 Formula (No Hunting)

Amy uses her SA2 Multiplayer Formula

Shadow uses the Boost Formula

Blaze Gets 2006 Formula

Silver Gets a mix between 2006 and his Generations Rival Battle Formula

Eggman (Maybe...) Gets SA2 Formula

Big Gets Sonic Heroes Formula

Other characters... IDC

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Slowly, over time, only after Sonic's gameplay is fixed, and based on his gameplay. As for specifics...

Sonic: 

Spoiler

A: Jump
B: (Homing) Attack
X: Brake
L: Parkour
R: Crouch/Roll

(I'm not being too picky about which buttons do what, swap them around if you think there's a better setup)

The core gameplay would be similar to Utopia. Parkour would basically just be "attach to wall if you're going fast enough" and from there you control like normal, not the stiff style that Lost World used. Braking works in the obvious way, and maybe offers some extra protection from skidding off the edge of a platform, but if you also hold the parkour button you can do a sort of mini-turbo; braking charges up some speed, and if you're holding the parkour button and a direction when you release brake, you dash off in that direction. The spindash would be done in the standard "crouch+jump" way (though with its strength based on how long you charge rather than button mashing), but Sonic can start charging it in the air, similar to the drop dash, though if you continued holding crouch you wouldn't shoot off when you hit the ground. The homing attack would work on the ground as well as in the air, sort of a small spinning hop.

Tails:

Spoiler

A: Jump/Float
B: (Homing) Attack
X: Brake
L: Charge Flight
R: Crouch/Roll

Tails' flight needs to be nerfed from how it's usually interpreted. Being able to fly around freely obviously breaks a lot of obstacles and level design elements, and the longer a character is off the ground the less they're working with the core mechanics of the series. So instead of "helicopter flight anywhere, any time", it's more like a superjump that you charge up and release. Pressing and holding jump in midair would let him float down gently.

Knuckles:

Spoiler

A: Jump/Glide
B: (Homing) Attack
X: Brake
L: ???
R: Crouch/Roll

Knuckles' gliding would decay over time, causing him to fall faster the longer you hold it. As with Tails, this is to get him back on the ground sooner instead of letting him fly over levels. Climbing would be limited to certain surfaces, though they'd be common surfaces throughout the levels and not very specific "climb here" paths like in RoL. Pressing attack while climbing would let him spin along the wall and switch him into a wallrun state so he wouldn't be stuck slowly climbing around.

???: Not sure what to put here. Maybe some kind of punch or ground pound? Something to represent his strength, but it should serve a clearer purpose than "break things".

Amy: 

Spoiler

A: Jump
B: (Homing) Attack
X: Brake
L: ???
R: Crouch/Top Spin

Amy's a tricky one. For variety's sake I'd probably go for no traditional spin attack. Instead, her "roll" would have her spin like a top with her hammer out, her homing attack would be a somersault with her hammer (maybe giving her a more vertical bounce on contact?), and she'd have a peelout style move rather than the spindash.

???: Hammer jump, maybe? Amy doesn't really have as clear a "concept" as some other characters, it's hard to find a focal point for her.

I don't have specific ideas for other characters at the moment though, as said, they'd all follow a similar structure.

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I got one. Give sonic sonic advance 2 style boost, homing attack, parkour, and give him a move that lets him ride badniks. Like, if you jump then press and hold the homing attack button, the recticle turns green give you the go ahead to let go so sonic can grab on to flying or giant enemies or rockets giving you control over them until they crash or something. He can also roll at the press of a button and will run again if you let go at top speeds.

Knuckles would have the same move. Also, give him a digging move in 3d space where he burrows underground and the camera turns to top down view and you can see like dirt trails so you can tell where he is so you don't hit one of eggman's mines. Give knuckles 3 power ups to collect so he can use a short boost that rams his fists into enemies for a short time so he can look like he's powerful. Oh, he could also punch too whenever he gets ready.

Tails, now this is a tough one for me, give him a flight move (think like the propeller helmet from nsmb wii), tail swipe and give him a move where he can flip-kick. He can also do it while he's running so he doesn't have to stop to do it.

Amy, let's see....pink typhoon, hammer spin, parkour, and she can swing on poles like the werehog.

Shadow, same move set as sonic but he can stop time and use a chaos sphere. 

As a matter of fact, let these characters have access to special moves depending on the ring count. I'll go into detail later.

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Sonic:50 rings= sonic slash *that move from sonic battle that created that wave* 100 rings= blue tornado but make it less flow breaking. 200 rings= boost.

Knuckles:50 rings= burrow move. 100 rings= ground volcano. 200 rings= charged punch.

Tails: 50 rings= tails spins around to shoot a razor wind from his tails. 100 rings= he shoots a wider range one. 200 rings= he summons t-pup.

Amy: 50 rings= pink typhoon. 100 rings= spins and floats in the air tornado while killing enemies. 200 rings= hammer hurricane. *sorta like the sonic boost. Haven't put much thought into this yet.

Shadow: 50 rings= chaos spear. 100 rings= chaos blast. 200 rings= *that hero move from shadow the hedgehog.

Gives you another reason to collect rings other than to survive at least.

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The answer used to be, do Tails and Knuckles the same way you did them on the SEGA Genesis; that is, not quite as fast as Sonic but still fast, and with some extra moves.  However, since boost became more-or-less the standard for how 3D Sonic plays, Tails and Knuckles have become a bit redundant.  Gliding isn't really a useful skill when Sonic can cover large horizontal gaps by jumping and boosting at the same time, and as for climbing and flying, they aren't useful in the sorts of levels that are designed to take advantage of the boost.  Here's the dirty little secret about games that star fast characters: You have to spend a lot of time making levels for them big, otherwise they'll be over pretty quickly.  With Sonic, possessing a built-in boost, being better than ever at covering horizontal ground, levels designed for him prioritize being long, as opposed to being tall, or wide, or deep.  That doesn't leave a lot of room for Tails and Knuckles.

Another major issue is the Wisps.  When Sonic does need to do other things than just run and jump these days, designers have felt it's just fine to give him power-ups, to make him fly, or break through obstacles, or dig, etc.  In other words, we've reached the point when Sonic gets inspired by Mario to the extreme that it dispenses of lots of its cast because its characters who fly and dig and break things obsolete. (Ironically, it's largely thanks to games that also feature Mario that we still get to play as Sonic's supporting cast at all these days.  I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, since those sorts of games previously saved Luigi and Diddy Kong from extinction even when their core series were giving them the shaft; except Luigi and Diddy Kong eventually came back in roles similar to their old ones.)  So either you give characters new abilities to make them useful again, or the wisps have got to go--or at least, have their use reduced.

A video I saw suggested that the best other characters to use in modern (3D) Sonic are Shadow and Blaze, since they were Sonic clones in their original incarnations (so was Tails, I guess, but since he could always canonically fly, it was only a matter of time before that ability would be usable when playing as him), and thus, could be put in a speed-focused, boost-driven game without feeling watered down.

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2 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

The answer used to be, do Tails and Knuckles the same way you did them on the SEGA Genesis; that is, not quite as fast as Sonic but still fast, and with some extra moves.  However, since boost became more-or-less the standard for how 3D Sonic plays, Tails and Knuckles have become a bit redundant.  Gliding isn't really a useful skill when Sonic can cover large horizontal gaps by jumping and boosting at the same time, and as for climbing and flying, they aren't useful in the sorts of levels that are designed to take advantage of the boost.  Here's the dirty little secret about games that star fast characters: You have to spend a lot of time making levels for them big, otherwise they'll be over pretty quickly.  With Sonic, possessing a built-in boost, being better than ever at covering horizontal ground, levels designed for him prioritize being long, as opposed to being tall, or wide, or deep.  That doesn't leave a lot of room for Tails and Knuckles.

Another major issue is the Wisps.  When Sonic does need to do other things than just run and jump these days, designers have felt it's just fine to give him power-ups, to make him fly, or break through obstacles, or dig, etc.  In other words, we've reached the point when Sonic gets inspired by Mario to the extreme that it dispenses of lots of its cast because its characters who fly and dig and break things obsolete. (Ironically, it's largely thanks to games that also feature Mario that we still get to play as Sonic's supporting cast at all these days.  I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, since those sorts of games previously saved Luigi and Diddy Kong from extinction even when their core series were giving them the shaft; except Luigi and Diddy Kong eventually came back in roles similar to their old ones.)  So either you give characters new abilities to make them useful again, or the wisps have got to go--or at least, have their use reduced.

A video I saw suggested that the best other characters to use in modern (3D) Sonic are Shadow and Blaze, since they were Sonic clones in their original incarnations (so was Tails, I guess, but since he could always canonically fly, it was only a matter of time before that ability would be usable when playing as him), and thus, could be put in a speed-focused, boost-driven game without feeling watered down.

Or have the other characters take the place of the Wisps. 

 

And yes, the Wisps are becoming very despised by fans and forgotten by critics. 

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7 hours ago, simtek34 said:

Sonic uses the SA1/2 Formula

Tails uses a mix between his SA1 and StH2006 Formula

Knuckles uses his StH2006 Formula (No Hunting)

Amy uses her SA2 Multiplayer Formula

Shadow uses the Boost Formula

Blaze Gets 2006 Formula

Silver Gets a mix between 2006 and his Generations Rival Battle Formula

Eggman (Maybe...) Gets SA2 Formula

Big Gets Sonic Heroes Formula

Other characters... IDC

I don't know how much thought you put into this. But the idea of picking a character and it plays like a different sonic game, in 3d space is actually amazing. 

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I think Sonic adventure kind of got things right in this respect with all characters being showcased and given a direct connected storyline.

However do it with less characters by keeping to a core of maybe four characters each with their own levels and gameplay sort of like with Sonic Adventure 2

At max I say have six characters not to overload the developers and give good balance to game play over sheer character choice

Sonic adventure 2 got that one mostly right despite its obvious flaws

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On-topic, I would take ANY method of having them playable again at this point. I once thought even a playable character of the week or out of series guest would suffice, but now I believe a COTW being playable would be a slap in the face and a middle finger to us, while the guest needs to fit with Sonic's energy to really work:

 

So this here is perfectly acceptable to me:

 

 

 

But this would be bizzare, awkward, and cringeworthy:

 

(unfortunately, every commercial guest in a Sonic game I've seen falls under the latter, excluding maybe the TF2 characters)

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On 6/4/2017 at 7:37 PM, Miru the Living Planet said:

On-topic, I would take ANY method of having them playable again at this point. I once thought even a playable character of the week or out of series guest would suffice, but now I believe a COTW being playable would be a slap in the face and a middle finger to us, while the guest needs to fit with Sonic's energy to really work:

 

So this here is perfectly acceptable to me:

 

 

 

But this would be bizzare, awkward, and cringeworthy:

 

(unfortunately, every commercial guest in a Sonic game I've seen falls under the latter, excluding maybe the TF2 characters)

Come to that, I would like to have another Sonic fighting game.  Sonic Battle had its flaws, but it sticks with me for how it actually made Amy Rose pretty badass.  Perhaps her strong showing there isn't a coincidence, since Amy's iconic abilities were first seen in an earlier fighting game.  SB also was arguably ahead of its time in being a the first "modern Sonic" game (arguably) to play its expanded cast and mythos mostly for laughs..."arguably" because some would call that a bad thing 

Outside of combat-oriented games, Amy had been a hard character to make work mechanically; eithey they pay homage to the abilities she got in non-traditional Sonic gameplay, like in Sonic Advance, where she's a klutzy clunker, or they push her into a traditional Sonic gameplay mold, like in Sonic Heroes, where she's basically Sonic and thus gives no reason to play as her.  However, they might have been able to do her both unique useful if they'd kept up one trope in Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic Rush: Enemy HP.  In most Sonic games, where enemies only take one hit, the challenge consists of hitting them fast before they hit you, and a somersault is better for that than a hammer blow.  In games where enemies have HP, smashing them with a heavy weapon can have its advantages, even if it's not as fast or precise.

And that's an important anecdote for more characters than just Amy: To do some characters well takes an alternate approach to game design.  That's why at the moment, Tails and Knuckles fit well in Classic Sonic games but Blaze and Shadow fit more in Modern Sonic games.  Characters like Amy, Bean and Omega don't really have proper niche in either of those.

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Well if a characters abilities are a part of the gameplay I think Sonic adventure nailed that one on the head, both it and Sonic adventure 2 had the seeds of a great ideas just not executed to their fullest potential and if you mix that with the refinement of Sonic generations you may get the perfect 3D Multi character Sonic game.

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Actually, thinking about it, classic Sonic games were easy to adapt to multiple characters. Just adding exclusive paths for each character depending on its abilities. On 3D Sonic games that's probably not possible, so I'd go for playing with Sonic 80% of the game, then some stages being playable by (and designed for) a certain character, to give some gameplay variety.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/6/2017 at 0:26 AM, molul said:

Actually, thinking about it, classic Sonic games were easy to adapt to multiple characters. Just adding exclusive paths for each character depending on its abilities. On 3D Sonic games that's probably not possible, so I'd go for playing with Sonic 80% of the game, then some stages being playable by (and designed for) a certain character, to give some gameplay variety.

 

I'd say it's fairly possible, actually.  It's not at all out of the question to place platforms so only Tails can fly to them, or have walls that only knuckles can break through, or have ramps that only Sonic is fast enough to speed off and sail the full length to the other side.

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I would like to see something like this:

Make Sonic as principal character. His abilities will be like Sonic Unleashed/Colors/Generations. According to your moves along the game, the characters who will follow you will changing, and maybe Tails follow Sonic (With the Adventure 1 gameplay, but without his missions). According what you'll do, the 2nd character will change for any other of the series (Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Rouge, Chaotix etc.), and may you can get 3 chars following you (Like Sonic Heroes). And maybe you can even change the principal character (Sonic). Other possibility it would be the characters follow you, but not be playable.

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Storywise: Whatever. Stories can interact (Adventures games), happen one after the other (Battles) or be totally disconnected. As long as their good.

For gameplay, I have two words: Shovel Knight

Make levels and gameplay only for Sonic, then add extra modes with level design changed to work better with Tails flying or Silver telekinesis.

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Hmm... First design the stages around Sonic then at first reintroduce Tails and Knuckles as playable characters as they I feel would be the more safer option (less complaints if the game goes south) and to test the waters without relying on other Sonics. If successful it could lead to other characters fitting in (e.g. Shadow, Blaze, Chaotix) but not too many otherwise it would end up like Heroes with the play the same complaint or Adventure where Sonic Team have to do different gameplay styles when it takes enough time to do one. I would do just to keep Sonic unique enough would be to go down paths that only he can go to so say like Sonic rolls down a hill and smashes a path by his speed however if Tails and Knuckles (or others) attempt to go down the hill, the path won't be smashed as they aren't fast enough.

Tails can follow Sonic for his stages (that as a option I felt should be brought back) but when it comes to his own however a helicopter style game to fit with his flying or the Tornado (bonus stages or bosses aside) would really slow down the pace of a level and the shooting didn't quite fit his character. So it'll be similar to Sonic except slower and have some features. I'll have Tails fly for a certain amount of time and mainly to get power ups or paths that Sonic can't reach as well as shortcuts so like Tails flies into a cannon that goes to another path but Knuckles can't reach it with his climb and glide as he won't be able to reach it since the cannon isn't near a climbable wall.

For Knuckles, for some reason the Werehog gameplay comes to my mind as he can punch as well as climb and for some levels more platform orinatated however one of the issues that some people found was that the gameplay was just too slow and the beat em up gameplay to be repetitive (that for most beat em ups is an issue and one of the hardest to not have that feeling even the greats such as Streets of Rage 2 still have this feeling). So what I would do is have a lot less enemies on par with a Sonic stage, travel much quicker not as quick as Sonic though and have some more vertical movement with his climbing. It can be adaptable to either Sonic style levels or a much faster Werehog style. That way he still has his characteristics of gliding and climbing but not towards a completely different gameplay mechanic such as the Adventure games with its map like design.

As for some characters, it is harder to fit into a mould. Like Bean's gameplay would fit as a beat em up due to the Dynamite Dux connection but then he would be considered having the same complaints as what the Werehog did and perhaps worse since Bean can only punch, kick and throw bombs as well as not jumping very high.

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For an actual reintroduction that will be the least contentious, just make a few other characters unlockable for optional, non-canon funsies after you beat whatever boost game is coming up next with Sonic. All you have to do is paste a new model on Sonic's math and give it some appropriate animations per action, and this can't be any more work than what has to be done with Sonic when he uses a Wisp. Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Metal would be fine starting points since they're popular and have been copy-pasted onto Sonic's basic gameplay beforehand anyway.

If it were up to me, I'd get Sonic working similar-ish to his Adventure incarnation: Running, jumping, rolling/Spindashing, and Homing Attacking is his basic move set, and that needs to be contextualized within an environment that takes advantage of it through a smoother physics system and linear levels with meaningful set-pieces and diversions in the pathway between A and B. The set-pieces diversions are important because they would justify other characters being playable in the same locations. If Tails isn't following Sonic, there's no reason he should follow Sonic's most likely path in the same way. Put him higher in the sky and give him a set-piece or two that makes sense for that location. Likewise for Knuckles whose strength and digging abilities should allow him to get down into places Sonic would have little need or interest in reaching.

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Sonic would play just like he does in Sonic Utopia, also with the Drop Dash.

Tails would play exactly like Sonic but he can fly. (of course without Sonic's Super Peel Out and Drop Dash)

Knuckles would play exactly like Sonic but he can glide and climb walls. (of course without Sonic's Super Peel Out and Drop Dash)

See, it's that easy. If Sonic Utopia's gameplay isn't an option, then just Sonic Adventure 1's gameplay but without treasure hunting or racing.

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On 6/19/2017 at 6:58 PM, Detective Kaito said:

Sonic would play just like he does in Sonic Utopia, also with the Drop Dash.

Tails would play exactly like Sonic but he can fly. (of course without Sonic's Super Peel Out and Drop Dash)

Knuckles would play exactly like Sonic but he can glide and climb walls. (of course without Sonic's Super Peel Out and Drop Dash)

See, it's that easy. If Sonic Utopia's gameplay isn't an option, then just Sonic Adventure 1's gameplay but without treasure hunting or racing.

Amy would play exactly like Sonic except she can't spin Jump or dash. She can jump higher, and uses her hammer to attack, activate springs, and grab things. She can also hop forward.

Big would play exactly like Amy except much slower (but not too slow), and use his fishing pole to grab objects and hit from afar. He would also be able to body-slam for a quick momentum boost on ground or air.

Gamma would play exactly like Amy except she can levitate and instead of a hammer, she packs heat and can lock onto targets to shoot homing missiles. 

 

There. I made six base archetypes based on SA1 and Sonic World (in the latter case, based on an expansion of Heroes with three additional classes). Anyone else would fall under one of these classes with a handful of tweaks. 

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Sonic Rush was on the right path. Sonic and Blaze look like pretty good proxies of each other, but that's only on the surface. Despite running through the same stages, with the same traps, how their additional moves were geared to traversal changed the way you tackled each level. Blaze had a much more vertical inspired game. Her burst hover, in combination with an explosive burst jump trick allowed to easily stay on the upper paths, and Rush did a good job rewarding the player for abusing those mechanics to keep her altitude at max. Sonic's extra dose of speed, and his humming top trick pushed his pace horizontally. Keeping him moving forward, blasting through enemies and always running with his pedal down to the floor. 

Thats all it really took. Just that one tiny difference. It was just enough that you could appreciate the difference between the two. Just enough to the point where their playstyles were interchangeable, but still distinguishable. Shortcuts here and there where you could make the most of their abilities. That's where Sega needs to start. It may be too much to ask for full blown S3&K right now. Until they figure out their padding issues, I doubt they will have the attention span to fully integrate other characters as they should. but if we are talking about a solid stepping stone, there is no reason why the small handful of characters that play 95% like Sonic shouldn't get the first handout. Shadow screams boost formula. We've seen him do it. Blaze screams boost formula. She helped start that trend for crying out loud. Metal Sonic? Yeah, I think he'd be a good choice too.

Bring in those speedsters. Give them something a little different. Let Shadow only be able to refill boost by crushing enemies, or let Blaze use her acrobatics to be better at parkour or give Metal Sonic unlimited boost V Maximum Overdrive and sit back to watch the show. Thats a good start. Thats something a lot of us would enjoy. They don't have to reinvent the wheel right off the bat. If they lean a little bit, and give us something like this, they can take their time and build to something bigger and better, like how to build stages where Tails can fly and Knux can climb without breaking the speed too much.

 

and the very least give us some character skins. Seriously, how has that not happened yet? They could charge us for it and people would buy the blasted things.

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